Anchoring Kills

Don't know any details or even if it's true, but I saw on the CNN screen that's always playing in the lobby of our building a headline that said the recent capsizing of the fishing boat that resulted in the death of two NFL players was due to "bad anchoring."

News just said that the anchor was hung up in about 130 ft of water. They apparently moved the anchor rode to the stern of the boat in an attempt to pull the anchor out under power. Reporter said that the stern dipped down and waked over the transom. The rough seas that they were in apparently flipped the boat.

Always remember that the bits and pieces on your boat are not worth your life.* When things are going badly, it's always good to take a couple of seconds to ask yourself "What's the worse that can happen?" if you do what you're planning to do.* If you don't like the answer, come up with a different plan.*
Each one of the guys that perished in this accident could probably have bought a new anchor and rode with the contents of their wallets and never noticed the difference.*
Always worry about people first and possessions second.

Things can happen really fast, and nothing ever goes wrong in isolation. They all compound on one another, quickly. A bit of alcohol or whatever makes things worse.

Yorksafloat wrote:

Always remember that the bits and pieces on your boat are not worth your life.* When things are going badly, it's always good to take a couple of seconds to ask yourself "What's the worse that can happen?" if you do what you're planning to do.* If you don't like the answer, come up with a different plan.*
Each one of the guys that perished in this accident could probably have bought a new anchor and rode with the contents of their wallets and never noticed the difference.*
Always worry about people first and possessions second.

Click to expand...

Jim, I don't think it was an issue of "saving the anchor".* It sounds like the anchor was down and holding well.....too well....and when they decided to get the hell outta there, the achor was stuck.* And before they could go to their "plan B", waves were already swamping the boat.* They should have cut the line but who knows if they had a good knife or even if they have enough time.* I was on the water when this front went thru Texas and it blew EXTREMELY hard.* It also didn't have*a squall line*ahead of it so maybe it took them a little by surprise.* WIth that said, it WAS forecast and they should have known better.* Things happen very fast "out there".

*

I know what I'm "supposed" to do, but when my number comes up I don't know that I'll keep my wits about me and make good decisions in an emergency.** But these guys .... man, it seems from what I've read that they did everything wrong from the git-go.

You old Navy flyers - remember the P3 from Adak that ditched back in the late 70's/early 80's sometime? * If I recall correctly all the old guys survived, the youngsters curled up in the bottom of the raft and died.* Besides training, it sounds like mental toughness is the key to survival.

It is amazing how quickly things can go wrong. Even to the most experienced of boaters. Are any you following the Vendee Cup single hand - lots of issues with those craft and activities. It seems that very competitive people are more prone to risk taking, with occasional unfortunate results. For Vendee, lots of keels coming off and boats turning turtle. Try that at 25 knots in the dark in cold*Southern seas- and surviving!

Just a guess , but many of these boats have humongus engines, 15 ft with 1-2-3 250HP on stern !

A slight goose with the throttle could pitchpole them in a heartbeat.

FF

If I remember the report correctly they moved the anchor rope from the bow to a stern cleat to try to pull out the anchor.

Ken

Aside from the fact that it is all too easy to criticize someone from the vantage of hindsight....they reportedly moved the anchor rode to the stern cleat to try and pull it loose with the engine.* Once it was stuck and the seas were disturbingly (and dangerously) high, they should have ditched the anchor with nothing more than a waypoint on the GPS if they felt like trying to retrieve it later with dive gear.*
This was the stereotypical "accident chain" where all you have to do is break one link and the accident doesn't happen.* We could spend a lot of time playing the "what if" game but I was simply pointing out one really obvious link in the chain which involved trying to save the anchor when simply ditching it and running for shore MIGHT have resulted in a different outcome.
Terribly tragic situation which (if we're honest) we all can relate to with a "there but for the grace of God go I."* It is my fervent hope that if I ever have an "incident" or worse while engaging in any of my many recreational pursuits that no one will be able to point fingers at obvious bad decisions.* I especially hope that any obvious bad decisions only affect me and do not hurt others.

Another link in the accident chain might be in the brief description of the boat that I read recently. It was considered an inside-waters boat, something for running around in the watereways and bays with. The person describing the boat said it was not the sort of craft that people take out into the open waters these guys were in, particularly with a chance of the sea kicking up.

This incident proves one thing - Stay with the boat till it sinks!!

Steve Willett
Monk 36, Gumbo
Thibodaux, Louisiana

-- Edited by Steve on Wednesday 1st of April 2009 08:23:09 AM

Yorksafloat wrote:

Aside from the fact that it is all too easy to criticize someone from the vantage of hindsight....they reportedly moved the anchor rode to the stern cleat to try and pull it loose with the engine.* Once it was stuck and the seas were disturbingly (and dangerously) high, they should have ditched the anchor with nothing more than a waypoint on the GPS if they felt like trying to retrieve it later with dive gear.*
This was the stereotypical "accident chain" where all you have to do is break one link and the accident doesn't happen.* We could spend a lot of time playing the "what if" game but I was simply pointing out one really obvious link in the chain which involved trying to save the anchor when simply ditching it and running for shore MIGHT have resulted in a different outcome.
Terribly tragic situation which (if we're honest) we all can relate to with a "there but for the grace of God go I."* It is my fervent hope that if I ever have an "incident" or worse while engaging in any of my many recreational pursuits that no one will be able to point fingers at obvious bad decisions.* I especially hope that any obvious bad decisions only affect me and do not hurt others.

Click to expand...

Jim, below is a thread that I started a while back.* I work as an airline pilot and hope your last sentence never comes true for me or potentially hundreds could lose their life.* It may be tedious to click on the link(within the* link I am providing), but give it at try and try to follow it.* It is the epitome of "cockpit resource management" and one of the main reasons*our air traffic system has continously improved.* It IS applicable to the way we manage our boats and is along the lines of what you are talking about.

*http://www.trawlerforum.com/forum.spark?forumID=115492&p=3&topicID=18771731


-- Edited by Baker on Wednesday 1st of April 2009 02:57:34 PM

John,
I am a private pilot and CRM was drilled into me my by flight instructor.* Perhaps more compelling was my wife telling me in no uncertain terms that I'd better NEVER end up on the evening news!* I know exactly what that article is talking about when it acknowledges that mistakes occur.* Heck, I make dozens a day!* The key is to constantly try to think ahead to what situations might be developing and take immediate steps to "break the chain."* A clear example is to have every approach be a "go around" that's interrupted by a landing.* In other words, you're hard wired to prepare for the worst and then you're pleasantly surprised when it doesn't happen!
I am in NO WAY trying to slam these guys.* They got in a situation for which they were not prepared and made some bad and fatal decisions in the process.* As I look back over my life I can point to dozens of times when it sure looks like sheer luck saved my butt.* If we are fortunate, we learn big lessons from those times.* Even better is the wisdom of learning from someone else's mistakes.*
My original point was to notice how often we try to save some possession or our reputation at the expense of something really valuable....our lives!* If just one person learns enough from this to avoid a similar situation - then it wasn't a total loss....
Jim

Coincidently, I just got this in my email...


St. Petersburg Times Article

By Emily Nipps and Drew Harwell, St. PetersburgTimes Staff Writers
In Print: Saturday, March 28, 2009

TAMPA The small boat rocked wildly in 6-foot waves. More than 30 miles from shore, the four men knew it was time to go back, time to pull up anchor.

But it wouldn't budge.

By turns, former Tampa Bay Buccaneers Marquis Cooper and Corey Smith and former University of South Florida football players Will Bleakley and Nick Schuyler all heaved mightily to no avail.

They decided to retie the anchor line from the bow of the 21-foot boat to the stern, then gun the engine to jerk the anchor out of the gulf's bottom.

It only made matters worse. The thrust pushed the anchor deeper, tightening the anchor line and pulling down the stern of the boat, exposing it to sloshing seas.

In one swift moment, the boat became swamped, overturned and dumped the four men into 62-degree seas.

Thus began the series of events that forever changed one life and ended three others.

In a report Friday, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission concluded the men improperly anchored the boat during their Feb. 28 fishing trip.

The 12-page report detailed the boaters' attempt to free the anchor, which ultimately submerged and capsized the vessel.

It also revealed information about the harrowing moments that followed, based on an interview with the sole survivor. All four men were on top of the hull until, one by one, three of the men died or purposefully slipped away.

"They made a mistake that turned out to be a tragic event," said investigator James Manson.

One man, Schuyler, survived the fishing trip.

Three others Cooper, Smith and Bleakley vanished in the cold and choppy waters of the Gulf of Mexico sometime after the group left shore Feb. 28.

Their bodies have not been found.

The Coast Guard discovered Schuyler during an air-and-sea search that scoured more than 20,000 square miles.

Clinging to the motor of Cooper's capsized boat, he had been in the water some 42 hours.

From his hospital bed, 24-year-old Schuyler told a story of loss and survival. Details of his account he was "very articulate," according to Manson were used in the state's investigation of the accident.

The report says about 5:30 p.m. on Saturday, Feb. 28, the men attempted to pull up the anchor of Cooper's boat and head back to port.

But they were unable to move anchor, nestled 138 feet below. Bleakley suggested re-tying the anchor line from the front of the boat to the rear, then gunning the motor to yank it loose.

That was their first mistake, Manson said. The anchor always should be tied to the more stable bow.

Cooper told the men he already had lost an anchor the same way the previous weekend, Schuyler told investigators. An offshore anchor costs about $80 to $100, Manson said, and the men probably did not want to lose another one.

"Again, that's a mistake," said Manson. Cutting the line might have saved lives.

The men tied the anchor line to a bracket at the back left side of the boat, leaving little or no slack to the line.

Cooper started the 200-horsepower motor and the boat thrust forward. Moments later, if flipped, submerged and rolled to its port, or left, side, the report said.

The men were thrown into the gulf, where they clung to the capsized boat. They couldn't upright the boat.

Bleakley retrieved three life jackets for the men and a throwable flotation device for himself.

The four struggled to stay atop the hull in rough waters, the report said. The water was up to their chests while they hung on. At some point, Schuyler cut the anchor line with the propeller of the motor.

"Mr. Schuyler had been wearing a watch affixed with a light and was able to record approximate time of events," the report said.

After hours in the water, 26-year-old Cooper was the first to show signs of hypothermia before dying about 5:30 a.m. Sunday, March 1, Schuyler told investigators.

The other men removed Cooper's life jacket as his body began to drift from the boat. Bleakley, 25, put on Cooper's life jacket, the report said.

An hour later, 29-year-old Smith was next to show signs of "extreme hypothermia," and he slipped off his life jacket and left the boat. Almost 24 hours later, Bleakley appeared to die in Schuyler's arms, and Schuyler released Bleakley into the water, the report said.

Bleakley's father, Bob, said he saw the report Friday afternoon, though none of the details surprised him. He only hoped some lessons could be learned from the accident that killed his son and friends.

"I don't need any more information from investigative agencies," Bob Bleakley said. "However, the public might."

The fish and wildlife report concluded the accident was caused by three factors: improper anchoring of the boat to the port side transom eye bracket; Cooper using the motor to throttle forward in hopes of releasing the anchor from the gulf's bottom; and failure to leave enough slack in the anchor line to compensate for top-water gulf conditions, which resulted in pulling the stern of the boat into the water.

The boat was eventually retrieved, but the anchor was never found.

"cockpit resource management"

or CRM was the attempt to cover a mistake in hiring during a pilot shortage in the 60's.

Foolishly hiring "Jet Jocks' who had no need and at times great distain for having other folks in "their" cockpit lead to crashes .

UAL in Seattle dumped a DC 8 in the river because the plumber was new and did not speak up when Sky King decided to lower the fuel level on one more orbit , before a simple "emergency" landing.

The very rapid advancement , and then almost 2 decades of stagnation of the seniority list also didn't help moral or CP communication.

FF

It is TEM now.....Threat and Error Management. The basis for it is data collection and determining trends before they become accidents. Kinda like determining the cause of a disease instead of just trying to treat the symptoms......along with all that other touchy/feely CRM stuff.

At the risk of going off thread (<grin>), I don't care what you call it.* If you stay ahead of your airplane (or your boat) and aware of what's happening around you and you use ALL of the tools at your disposal to stay safe....then that seems to be a good thing.* Unfortunately, a lot of these "programs" - invariably identified by catchy acronyms - are the result of Monday morning quarterbacking.* As I mentioned earlier, hindsight imparts incredible wisdom (and I mean that in the literal sense of the word "incredible.").*
Ultimately, I am the one who is responsible for the safe and prudent operation of my vehicle/vessel/aircraft.* I can certainly fall prey to things that are completely outside of my control but why should I add to my difficulties by ignoring simple safety precautions and careful operation of my craft?
"Skin, Tin, Ticket....in that order!"

I just poking at FF because he likely left the business when CRM was just a baby. And also, my point reference TEM is that it is not "just a program" with a catchy acronym. In the airline business, we fly into the same places over and over and over. Through the Flight Operations Quality Assurance program(FOQA), we are able to see troubling trends before they develop into accidents. That informations is disseminated to the training department and the flight crews to be aware of those threats because they do exist. They even show up in our training syllabus and in our simulator sessions.* We are given general information pages for each airport. And on that page are FOQA alerts that point out dangerous trends and threats going into that airport. It might be terrain followed by unstabilized approaches. It might be the tendency of the controllers to change runways at the last moment.* It would be like having a continuous monitor in your lungs(ie any part of the body).....you may be able to see the cancer and remove it before it kills you.

Anyway, to zoom back out and how it relates to boats. It is absolutely amazing at how things can go wrong very quickly on a boat going only 7kts. But, like we have discussed, it is usually the culmination of a chain of poor decisions. The decisions may not have even been poor. There was just another direction that the "flow chart" of events could have gone had you taken another path.



-- Edited by Baker on Thursday 2nd of April 2009 12:08:08 PM

If you stay ahead of your airplane (or your boat) and aware of what's happening around you and you use ALL of the tools at your disposal to stay safe....then that seems to be a good thing.

How do you know if you are ahead or behind when your only training is "Switch Position" instead of the "old fashioned" complete systems build up?

Way back in the 70's any crewmember on the "friendly bus line" could draw the basic electrical , basic fuel ,basic hyd ,basic bleed air use systems fro memory.

That died in the 90's with Switch Position IN , and aircraft knowledge OUT.

FF

Isn't a complete understanding of the system on which your life depends the first step in a GOOD decision chain?* Admittedly, as the systems get more and more complex (e.g. commercial aircraft) there is a limit to how much you can know and understand.* I can't speak from personal experience with commercial aircraft (although I have a brother who flies for NWA).* I would be really surprised to find a pervasive culture of Switch Flippers.* There appears to be a fair amount of systems level knowledge....that's the kind of thing that allows a pilot to make a survivable ditch in the Hudson, for example, even though I doubt he knows how to properly service the APU.*
However, for a boat of the type we generally consider on this forum you SHOULD be able to understand how it all works and at least have the ability to perform basic user level maintenance and simple repairs.* The farther you go off shore, the more complete your knowledge base needs to be....if you are still interested in a reasonable chance of returning to port....
At its root, however, life is uncertain and occasionally dangerous.* All you can do is the best you can do and enjoy the ride.* A careful examination of the situations in which you find yourself should help you keep the "gambling" to a minimum!

Yorksafloat wrote:

Isn't a complete understanding of the system on which your life depends the first step in a GOOD decision chain?* Admittedly, as the systems get more and more complex (e.g. commercial aircraft) there is a limit to how much you can know and understand.... I would be really surprised to find a pervasive culture of Switch Flippers......

However, for a boat of the type we generally consider on this forum you SHOULD be able to understand how it all works and at least have the ability to perform basic user level maintenance and simple repairs.

With regards to your first point, you are correct.* And an assumption that today's pilots (or operators of any complex piece of equipment) are little more than switch-flippers is totally wrong.* While the airplane I fly has precious few switches to flip, I am around the flight crews of 777s, 747s, and (in the simulators) 787s a fair amount of time.*

These men and women are astonishing in their knowledge of the airplane's systems.* Yes, they don't know how to change an APU, but they know every operational aspect of that APU, how it fits into the overall aircraft system picture, and how to deal with it if it goes haywire or how to use it to solve some other power problem.* Same thing for every other system on the plane.* Anyone who thinks the job is mere "switch flipping" has not been*on today's flight decks or watched a flight crew at work.* The 787 is scary (to me) because there's so little that is intuitively*recognizable to a "stick and rudder" pilot like myself.* Particularly the flight management system with its touch pad controls and multiple layers of menus and functions.

Today's pilots not only have to understand the airplane's physical*systems, they have to understand some very complex computer control systems as well.* And the remarkable thing is.... they do.* It's the difference between today's kids who can play incredibly compex computer games on an interactive, on-line*basis with a kid in Europe and yesterday's kids who thought Pong was the ultimate in electronic gaming.

As to your second point, I think you're right on there, too.* I have seen on a number of occasions the owners of*boats--- usually large and expensive-- be totally flummuxed when they turned on a sink tap and nothing came out.* They didn't have a clue how the*fresh water*gets to the sink.* Thise folks are mechanics' dreams.* It's okay if the problem is minor or if they're near a yard or port where they can hire someone to fix the problem.

But they are totally at sea (literally) if a serious problem should crop up away from the hired help.* Run a tank dry and starve an engine (or worse, THE engine)*and these folks don't have a clue how to bleed the fuel system.* So instead of knowing how to get the engine going in ten or fifteen minutes, they come home on the end of a rope to the tune of a huge bill.

We do as much of our own work on our boat as we can.* Stuff like setting valve clearances, installing new exhaust systems and engine mounts we leave to the pros.* Not because I don't understand the theory of these tasks---- I do most of my own work on our vehicles including setting valve clearances and*removing an engine to have it rebuilt--- but because these jobs on a boat require time that I don't have, and experience that I don't have, and often tools that I don't have.* And the consequences for doing it wrong on a diesel boat can be REALLY expensive.

But everything else my wife and I do ourselves, from rebuilding toilets, to rebuilding the supports for and installing a new water heater, to installing a new radar system.* We do this partly to make boating more affordable, partly because we like the challenge, and partly because we enjoy the work.* But in the process, we learn how everything works on the boat. So when something stops working--- a common enough occurance on a machine that sits in salt water---- we know how it's supposed to work and so can do whatever is necessary to fix or replace it.* Or figure out a work-around until we can fix or replace it.

Click to expand...

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 2nd of April 2009 07:28:14 PM

"There appears to be a fair amount of systems level knowledge....that's the kind of thing that allows a pilot to make a survivable ditch in the Hudson,"

For most any aircraft , engine(s) out

Lower the nose to maintain flight

Ditch into the wind and across wave patterns if you can (ocean sized waves)

Ditch with proper air speed and pitch attitude .

Don't think that has changed since by planes flew off the Langley,and I sure don't see any systems knowledge required.

Basic airmanship is about all.

FF - For most of the points in this thread I think we are in violent agreement!* On the issue of commercial pilots and their skills, I think we may have to politely "agree to disagree."* If I'm in my Cessna and the weedwhacker stops then it's all about basic airmanship.* If someone is piloting a commercial airliner over an urban area with 150 very interested "spectators" behind him and thousands more on the ground and the engines stop, well I tend to think it's a bit more complicated than just lowering the nose.*
It's like comparing professional football to a pick up game in your backyard.
Getting back to the original thread, my primary point was not a discussion of commercial pilot skills but rather a simple statement that it's not worth your life to save an anchor (or any other bit of boating equipment).* We all know that in the heat of the moment, you tend to revert to training.* In that case, spend some quality time "training" yourself on how to handle as many of the reasonably foreseeable events as you can.* Learn from your mistakes - and from other's mistakes.* Plan, plan, plan.* And above all, THINK!
Common sense seems to not be all that common.* Since it can save your life, it's a good idea for all of us to at least make the effort to develop some common sense skills and habits.
Oh...it's also important to remember that we do this for FUN!
Jim
M/V Antipodes

FF wrote:

Ditch into the wind and across wave patterns if you can (ocean sized waves)

Click to expand...

*I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant ditching along the length of the waves, not at right angles to them (into or down them).* As a longtime seaplane pilot, I can tell you that landing into even very small waves can beat the crap out of a plane.* Landing into or down ocean swells can easily destroy it and the people inside.

"across wave patterns if you can (ocean sized waves)"

ditching along the length of the waves,


Better verbiage , all VP pilots were taught about ditching , over and over.

Most interesting one of out guys was on a GCA into Navy Jax , that flew him right into the water .

Cost DMA a pile of aluminum , but not a crew member has a scratch , those were tough birds.

Will be interesting to see how the 737 does in the same splash landing.

If you fly over enough water long enough , eventually the raft will be required.


"If someone is piloting a commercial airliner over an urban area with 150 very interested "spectators" behind him and thousands more on the ground and the engines stop, well I tend to think it's a bit more complicated than just lowering the nose."

It is , you need to watch the airspeed , rate of descent and pick a smooth spot.

FF