Trawler economy at twice the speed

MurrayM said:

I saw those videos, and was impressed, then I noticed the paravane booms in the photo's on this thread...

Does anybody else think the covered flying bridge destroys what would have been incredibly sleek lines?

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The flybridge?... no I think the overly tall windows do a pretty good job of killing the lines all by themselves. I don't really like the destroyer look, most pics taken of the boat at anchor or on the dock they usually have the shades pulled down. The boat has got to suffer from greenhouse effect in lower latitudes . There is also a false economy in a 85' boat that has the room of a 55' boat. It would take a lot of passage making to realize any economy. But then again there is no perfect boat... and we all need to be able to dream.
HOLLYWOOD

I know this is going to sound petty, but I like a pretty boat.

I'm sorry, but at least to me, that boat is just not pretty.

This is a pretty boat, in the same price range and fully capable of world travel.




This is another pretty boat capable of world travel.




There are lots of examples of pretty boats out there. Boats that are capable, boats that are safe, boats that are more comfortable, or cheaper, and yes, much prettier.

I will say that for folks that want that kind of specialized passagemaker those are some very functional looking boats. For the job they are designed to do they look like they'll do it very well.

hollywood8118 said:

But then again there is no perfect boat... and we all need to be able to dream.

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Well, slap my ass and call me Judy! Truer words thar never be spoke

but I'd like to see a comparison of purchase price per square foot of liveable space.

Mere volume does little for a boat unless its constantly dockside as a cottage.

Once the boat is actually underway big LWL and skinney are far more important to comfort than a dance hall interior.

We happened to pass by the Dashew's heading in opposite directions at the entrance to Baltimore harbor a few years back. Look at that fender hanging over the side - what lubbers!

deckofficer said:

An Endeavour Catamaran Trawlercat will meet and exceed those numbers but does it at a fraction of the weight and minimum wetted surface hulls. PDQ and Seawind also, and for the same reasons.

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Now if only they had the design criteria of an FPB and:

• were ocean rated
• could survive a capsize
• would not sink due to a container strike
• had the tankage to travel 4000 nm non stop
• looked like a Vietnamese naval vessel

FF said:

but I'd like to see a comparison of purchase price per square foot of liveable space.

Mere volume does little for a boat unless its constantly dockside as a cottage.

Once the boat is actually underway big LWL and skinney are far more important to comfort than a dance hall interior.

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The problem is that people live in space. Generally less space = less long term comfort, assuming good design of the interior spaces.

I don't see battling the open seas in heavy conditions as the "joy" of cruising. I see cruising as a series of voyages to interesting places where you live off of the boat and explore.

For me, the compromise is and would be to maximize your creature comforts while being capable of getting through the really rough stuff.

I guess I'm saying that while having a boat that is comfortable in a hurricane might be nice, but you can choose not to go out in that kind of weather and live more comfortably.

Baltimore Lurker wrote;

"We happened to pass by the Dashew's heading in opposite directions at the entrance to Baltimore harbor a few years back. Look at that fender hanging over the side - what lubbers!"

Indeed .. look like newbies. Definitely a slicer though.

Kasanders,
Yup ... Don't care for any Nordhavn except the 46 but that KK and many many others are beautiful indeed. You could almost say if a yacht's not pretty it may not even be a yacht. Think of how many Nordy's they'd probably sell if they were beautiful. For that matter the Dashew boats would probably sell at least three-fold if they'd just paint'em.

But with time you have to paint it again and again.

deckofficer,
You'd get along fine in Alaska. I painted my 16' aluminum skiff including anti fouling on the bottom. I don't think anybody had ever done that in the past there either. But Alaskan's view boats like chain saws and pants. Ther'e useful in the company of others and when (not if) you want to cut wood ... or go fishing. VERY few boats exist in Alaska exist for any other reason .. fishing. And of course painting them is a waste of time. Most think fenders are a waste of time also.

The boats on this forum on the other hand are considered to be almost works of art held in the highest esteem by their owners and lusted after frequently because of their perceived beauty. You see and read of the great effort and honest work most of the TF members do to make their boat beautiful and then admire the other man's boat as well. Count the unfinished boats on this forum.

I used to live in Valdez.

Dave Martin designed, 1984 Trendsetter 40 motoryacht, 1.8gph at 9knots and 8gph at 20knots (light load) 14knots (full load) with a single 235 Volvo TAMD60B

Boatpoker, is your boat related to the "Isle of Skye"? They look VERY similar, and nice I might add. Steppen tells me this is the forefather to our Great Lakes 33 which uses 2 gph at 9 knots with a single Volvo TAMD 40.

LaBomba said:

Boatpoker, is your boat related to the "Isle of Skye"? They look VERY similar, and nice I might add. Steppen tells me this is the forefather to our Great Lakes 33 which uses 2 gph at 9 knots with a single Volvo TAMD 40.

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We owned Isle of Skye for 15 years and ran her from Duluth to the Gulf and through the Bahamas putting 12,000 hours on her. She is quite simply the best coastal cruiser on the water. We averaged 1.2gph with a Perkins HT354. How does that translate to US gallons ? round trip from Toronto to Dry Tortugas and return including the St. Johns south of Palatka, the St.Mary's, the Chesapeake, the Potomac and the Delaware used 779 gallons.

20' seas and never spilled the coffee but she was very small for a 37 footer and we needed more space once the grandkids came along. I'll regret selling her for the rest of my life. We now own a Martin Trendsetter 40 with incredibly low fuel usage but I do miss Skye.

PS Where did you get my photograph ? Thats Skye at anchor in Beaufort NC

boatpoker said:

We owned Isle of Skye for 15 years and ran her from Duluth to the Gulf and through the Bahamas putting 12,000 hours on her. She is quite simply the best coastal cruiser on the water. We averaged 1.2gph with a Perkins HT354. How does that translate to US gallons ? round trip from Toronto to Dry Tortugas and return including the St. Johns south of Palatka, the St.Mary's, the Chesapeake, the Potomac and the Delaware used 779 gallons.

20' seas and never spilled the coffee but she was very small for a 37 footer and we needed more space once the grandkids came along. I'll regret selling her for the rest of my life. We now own a Martin Trendsetter 40 with incredibly low fuel usage but I do miss Skye.

PS Where did you get my photograph ? Thats Skye at anchor in Beaufort NC

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Wow, small world. I got this picture from Steppen as he was explaining the evolution of the Ontario Yachts boats. Thanks for the reply.

I've met them and the new owners in their mulitple visits to NC, though first saw the boat in Ft. Lauderdale. Really cool boat.

Here are some pictures of Windhorse on the hard at Trident Marine for you hull form geeks:

caltexflanc,
Thanks for posting the pics. That's the thing I like most about the Windhorse boats ... their hull but this is the first time I've seen pics below the WL. In this case my imagination was pretty good. When I think of one for myself of course I think smaller and I don't see how the result could be better that TAD's Yellow Cedar. That boat is 10 X 38' with about 8 tons and is powered w 28hp.

Is that a Super Sarca on the bow? Go get `em Rex!

Bruce

Isn't that a ROCNA??

Could be, Tom.
Images traveling this far can be compromised. Shank looks straight.

Well, I think the Dashews' boats are good looking given the job they are designed to do. They aren't what I'd want to run around the PNW/BC/SE Alaska in, however. But if I had to zip across the Pacific for a lunch meeting and had to do it by boat, that's what I'd want, and the boat would look good doing it.

I put Nordhavns into two categories--- unbelievably ugly and tolerably ugly. There are only a couple of models in the latter category. But they're very capable and if capability is at the top of the "I need it" list then that can trump aesthetics.

Although capability and aesthetics can be combined in one boat as witness Carl's Delfin. While similar in concept to the bigger Nordhavn's, Delfin makes the Nordhavns look like a stack of boxes that's about to fall over. I've seen Delfin underway, not just in Carl's avatar, so I know of what I speak.

But--- I don't think the Dashew boats and Nordavns are as ugly as the skyscraper box production sundeck boats like Carvers and such. Those things are like the A380-- there is no way with any camera and any lens from any angle to make them look good. We've tried with the A380. Haven't yet with a sundeck Carver or the like.

But beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what looks great to one person can absolutely suck to another. If this wasn't so we'd all have the same kind of boat and that would be really boring.

sunchaser said:

Bruce

Isn't that a ROCNA??

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The Dashews were among the first to use and endorse the Rocna. In fact it was their testimonials to the effectiveness of the anchor in their cruises-- as well as a lot of others that we read--- that convinced us to give the Rocna a try.

I think this Windhorse looks a little fat

I think this Windhorse looks a little fat

It is a Rocna. I don't know if he coined the term or not, but I liked Dashew's phrase:
"You know your anchor's big enough when people at the dock laugh at how big it is".

I think the boat is very sleek and cool looking, so does my wife, who happens to be someone with actual taste. I like the Steve Jobs megayacht too, which in many ways looks like a blown up version of Windhorse.

I have a few more pictures from some other angles if anyone is interested. I thought the most striking feature of the hull bottom was the very short, almost center-board like inverse T shaped "keel". It turns out it is designed mostly to augment the stabilizers, and protect them some, and in concert with the propellor shaft skeg-struts allow the boat to sit on dry land.

Marin said:

The Dashews were among the first to use and endorse the Rocna. In fact it was their testimonials to the effectiveness of the anchor in their cruises-- as well as a lot of others that we read--- that convinced us to give the Rocna a try.

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Actually, that's only half true (we talked about it in Beaufort). They had a Bruce for a while, but the wings made springline departures a problem at dock with tall pylons. They stuck out too far. Moreover, the company that makes Bruce were unwilling to scale-up their anchor on his request. Rocna was ready and willing to make a larger anchor for them, and it also gave them the clearance they needed. He had VERY high praise for it and that 350# Rocna. He only uses 3/8 chain and usually a 2:1 scope is plenty.

Needless to say, many anchor companies courted them for their endorsement. He told me that at least one company let him try one, he used it for a VERY short time (he didn't like it) and sent it back. Nevertheless, they still used their name in an ad as having endorsed their product.

Tom-

psneeld said:

Even if I could afford the boat...just the length would kill me on dockage and hauling...

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Then you couldn't afford the boat!!!!

Gonzo wrote;

"He had VERY high praise for it and that 350# Rocna."

You're kidding. 350lbs ???????? That must be extremely over sized. He wants that Rocna because it's (design wise) like his boat. Extreme, ugly and (when he adopted the thing) very unique. Well if he anchors at 2-1 scope w an anchor that does not have good performance at short scope (several anchor testers have attested to that) maybe he needs a 350# anchor. At 2-1 he'd be better off w a SARCA, Manson Supreme or several other anchors. Manson has out a new anchor called the Boss that is (in my opinion) quite likely better at holding power than any other anchor.

He may be just a smart man thinking out of the box and he may be surrounding himself w exotic things to give the impression that he is certifiably smarter than everybody else. I LOVE out of the box stuff so I'm drawn to the Windhorse as others are and am working on a OB boat design that is at least a bit like WH. And the lack of paint may be just another way to stand out from the crowd. As to the windows vertical ones were very popular in 1929 but not for a long time so that could be another way of being different and unique. I'm a bit disgusted by people being different just to draw attention to themselves and I suspect Dashew (and most (or all)of his followers) are at least a mixture of that and being "out of the box" people. So I think Dashew is a mix of two but probably a little more on the "out of the box" side of the equation. But I haven't met the man and he could be 90% just out of the box.

The main difference about the Dashews is they have spent more time doing open ocean cruising than 99.9% of all boaters, under power and especially under sail. They have designed and run and proven boats for each. Windhorse is about as purpose-driven a design as there is and "looks" were about as far down the list of priorities as they can be. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I happen to think the boat looks great.

caltexflanc said:

The main difference about the Dashews is they have spent more time doing open ocean cruising than 99.9% of all boaters, under power and especially under sail. They have designed and run and proven boats for each. Windhorse is about as purpose-driven a design as there is and "looks" were about as far down the list of priorities as they can be. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I happen to think the boat looks great.

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Amen!!!
And Eric, I don't think it is fair to judge the guy when you have never met him/them. I seriously doubt he/they designed the boat for anything other than what it was meant to be used for....I think that is obvious. Form definitely followed function in this case.

Hi
caltexflanc,
That's hard to say on an I-pad.

I think ther'e probably a lot more passage making people out there than you think. But the WH is definitely more purpose-designed than most all pleasure craft and the Dashew's have plenty of experience. I'd love to have a WH hull of about 30'.

But the old saying that beauty is in the eye of the beholder is only partially true. In order for it to be true you'd also be saying artist's and Naval Architect's don't know anything about beauty. I have known a NA that was somewhat lacking w the knowledge of beauty. I know people that know a lot more about beauty than most people. Beauty is not just an opinion or notion. It's a learned discipline taught in schools by others that know and understand the elements of art. But in your defense beauty is like music. Many are talented right out of the box so DNA has a significant influence here and many who aspire to be an artist find out no amount of studying will get them there.

Peoples ability to perceive beauty for what it is usually have the DNA AND training like in art school with a lot of experience. Those w/o experience and exposure and training and lacking art DNA don't have much of a clue and most of us are here and there in-between.