My engines are better than yours

Or maybe not ...
I'm in the market for a sundeck maybe 40' to 42 '.
My research shows a variety of engine configurations including Lehmans,
Volvos, Cats, Cummins, Perkins and an occasional Yanmar etc.
I currently own a 30' Island Gypsy with a Ford Tempest. It's a British
marinized 2715E Ford block which I thing is bulletproof.
Anyway, somewhere, maybe on this forum I heard at least one disparaging remark re: Volvos and I'm wondering if that was just one person's impression or if there was a consensus of ill will toward Volvos or any other make.
Should I be steering clear of some diesels ?

-- Edited by surveyor1 at 18:44, 2009-01-10

surveyor1 wrote:

, maybe on this forum I heard at least one disparaging remark re: Volvos and I'm wondering if that was just one person's impression or if there was a consensus of ill will toward Volvos or any other make.

Click to expand...

The only negative comment I have heard a number of times in different boating forums*regarding Volvo engines is the same comment I've heard about their cars--- parts are bloody expensive.

Parts are expensive , some engineering and parts selection is poor and the mfg does not admit to factory build errors.

Volvos come in 2 styles , lightweight cart marinizations , and heavy duty bigger engines.

For displacement boats the construction equipment farm tractor marinizations seem an OK choice, although personally I would chose Cummins or Detroit if a high output engine were needed.

The Deere with marinized Jap construction equip blocks is a good choice for limited power at disp speeds.

As FF wrote, some Volvo engines are better than others. The same can be said for DD and Cummins and etc. Engine age, prior maintenance and prior owner operating habits will play a very important part in your selection irrerspective of brand. Engines can be rebuilt or replaced and should not be the sole criteria for buying a vessel. For those engines to avoid and history in general go to boat diesel.com and pay the $25 to view and discuss all issues diesel.*Then locate and hire the right engine surveyor to conduct a detailed look at your selection. Good luck.

-- Edited by sunchaser at 06:55, 2009-01-10

Something that concerns me is that the majority of members on boatdiesel.com are Volvo owners....

If you check out the Members Vessels on boatdiesel, you'll find more Cummins, and roughly as many Detroit, Cat and Yanmar as Volvo.*

Maybe it just means that the majority of people with trouble are the Volvo owners???

I notice that a lot of the new boats/trawlers have Deere engines?*

When we bought the Eagle, one of the deciding factors*was it has a DD 671 where parts and service are available thought out the PNW.* Being our boating season*is only 3 to 5 month per years having parts and service is important.* I would also think having parts and service would be important for a long range cruise boat/trawler?

What is your thoughts?

Phil Fill wrote:

Being our boating season is only 3 to 5 month per years having parts and service is important.

Click to expand...

To most people our boating season is about three weeks long (thank God).* To the few of us who have had enough sun and blue sky for a lifetime (I grew up in Hawaii--- I'm done with sun and blue sky), our boating season is twelve months long.* The best boating to be had in the PNW are the months when everyone else is cowering in terror of the gray skies and rain, which is pretty much the case from September to the end of June.* And as western Washington's population slowly shifts from people who've lived here a long time or all their lives to people who've lived here only a few years or less, there are less and less boaters out and about between September and July.

Which is way cool.

*

I had a 200 hp volvo tamd41p in my Camano I never had a bit of trouble with it it had 1400 hours on it when I sold the boat. It did scare me when I fist got it and saw a small bit of oil drip from the aftercooler weep hole but turns out it is a normal for that and other diesels.
Steve

Hey Rob,

What the heck is a " sundeck maybe 40 - 42' " Must be a style of boat and not a brand. I was the guy that said the neg about Volvos .. some people love em .. some people hate em but they all pay way too much for parts. I repowered recently and looked at everything I could find except Volvos. I like the green though. It looks like your'e buying a used boat and looking for the prefered engine that you'll find in that boat. For the record I'd choose Cat, Yanmar, Perkins or Cummins .. pass on the Volvo.
I clicked on your boat .. very nice .. I'd be keep'in that one if it were as good as it looks. If you buy a boat with a Volvo you'll probably like it .. you'll just need to upchuck a lot of green when you buy parts.

Eric Henning

Eric--- A sundeck is a configuration of boat.* I believe it describes a boat that has a full or almost full width aft cabin with a large, user-friendly deck on top of it.* The flying bridge is usually stepped up from the sundeck.* The sundecks are often enclosed, usually by fabric tops and side curtains with flexible clear "windows," and have full standing headroom under the top.* I believe a number of Carver models are considered "sundeck cruisers."

The upside to the 6-71 is the ease with which the engine can be placed out of service , pickled at low expense .

And the fact that they will run , even when moderatly broken. They are indeed the best get home , short of sail.

The downside is the poorer fuel use at light loads , But for P/H at 4 hours a year , I'm not sure thats a big concern.

Also the injection system "the rack" needs to be run if the injectors are serviced , a detailed and skill requiring a genuine mechanic with DD experience.

FF

A Sundeck....

I'm surprised to not see the the Lehman 120 on this list. There are tens of thousands of these running out there. It is a great, nearly indestructible little chunk of iron. Very easy to work on and diagnose. Very low fuel burn in the 1500-1800rpm range. I love mine! It also doesn't hurt that the designer is only a phone call away to BobSmith at American Diesel 804-435-3107.

FF, I will have you know that we almost tripled the 4 hours last year.* Who know we might even break 20 hours this year.

My real question was concerning the Deere as it's*standard*for many of the new long range boats.* I*checked the PNW marine guide and there are two*parts/service and*none in the Everett area.***Now East of the mountains which is mostly agreculture there is a*Deere parts/service in almost every*town/city.* I am not saying if a good of bad engine just concerned about parts and serive which is the big complain about Velvo.

I have not seen Deere mention on past discussion?*

Yea guys I see the Sundecks. Thanks. Don't think we have any here on Prince of Wales Is.
Parts? I can get parts for my engine almost instantly from one source in the US. We rarely need them and yet I hear over and over again about the importance of parts availibility. All you need is one good source in the US.
Daddyo, If I understood the question I would have included Lehman Sabre and others that used the 380 Ford .. good engines to be shure but Bob Smith didn't design 96% of the engine .. it was english Ford engineers.
FF, How is the DD so easy to pickle?

Eric Henning

How is the DD so easy to pickle?


By simply pulling the air box covers , a single bolt per cylinder , the usual marine fogging fluid can be sprayed DIRECTLY into each cylinder above the piston..

A turn or two and there is lots of preserving oil to help the cylinders from rusting.

Sealing the exhaust & blower inlet and your done.

DD does require using a preserving oil in the fuel , easily done by filling the primary off engine filter .

Done after the hot oil change & before the fogging fluid spray.

EZ? enough?

VOLVO, folks wonder why these are ever considered in a boat.

The* boat Mfg does not care about your operating or* maint costs, he cares about how cheaply he can move merch. to get a check.

Volvo would "floor plan" engines and the better engine mfg would not.

To pay for an engine package ,perhaps a 3 months to year in advance , VS a "free " engine until the vessel is sold ,

*not a hard choice for most boat assemblers.

FF

-- Edited by FF at 05:20, 2009-01-13

On repowers, many choose to use Volvos - for sound reasons. About two years ago there was an article in PMM about a 34 Tolly in the PNW that removed the gas originals to put in Volvo diesels. Volvo is a considerable force in European diesels, both land and sea. Competition on new diesels is good, it makes them all better over time. On new and repower installs, Cummins needs a viable alternative - and today Yanmar and Volvo are the only ones offering the bulk of the competition. The others, in 2009, are (Tier II and III &*Euro compliance*gets involved) not necessarily worthy competitors including Cat and my beloved Perkins Sabres.

-- Edited by sunchaser at 10:42, 2009-01-13

Like FF said, Volvos are usually a bit cheaper up front but more expensive to maintain. I personally am not a fan of them if nothing other than emotional reasons. If I had a choice of 2 boats, one with Volvos and one with "other", I would probably choose other. I also am "emotionally" against DD....simply because I don't understand them.....naturally aspirated but with a supercharger????!!!!! I know they are good engines but they just don't look right to me when I look at them....they don't look familiar. There is "****" everywhere. I wanna see block...injecotr pump and fuel lines to injectors....heat exchanger and exhaust maybe with Turbo and requisite plumbing. That is what a diesel looks like to me. A DD does not look that way. Volvos would not be a "deal killer" if the boat will be doing displacement speeds. I would not choose them if it was a planing boat where the engines would be working hard. Cummins seems to be a popular engine but again....I am the consumate shopper on Yachtworld and you just don't see very many Cummins with high time on them(and I surely would not buy a 3000+ hour Cummins). It always seems like you see these higher time Cummins boats with one engine "freshly rebuilt". Sounds to me that their lifespan is right around 2000 hours....and it is likely because Cummins are put in higher speed boats that are working hard. I really wish the naturally aspirated 115hp version of this engine were more popular. You see it ocassionally but not often.

My preference for a displacement boat would be the Lehmans followed by Deere and then may a "properly sized" Yanmar. A faster boat and I would choose Caterpillar followed by Yanmar.

Baker,

Good stuff,
thank you.

Good God John,

How can you say that .. only 2000 hrs? In this day and age even a piss poor engine should last 5 - 6000 hrs. What happens to them?
I think most of you guys don't like or trust " off brands "*that aren't extreemly popular .. a mistake I think. My favorite engine is Isuzu and I think highly of the Mitsu in my boat as well. If there's any truth to what John says I'll have to stop saying " all engines are good .. just pic the one that suits your needs "
Volvos cheap? .. I didn't know that .. but I didn't look at them.
John .. how can you say a DD is naturally aspirated??? They are a 2-stroke and won't even start without the blower. Any engine that makes such sweet and wonderful sounds as a " Screemin Jimmie " ( the blower does make a bit too much " sound " ) I would tollerate even if it were ugly .. and there not .. just a bit strange - no different. I suppose if the right rototiller would present itself you would consider it a peice of art .. indeed very emotional.
I can be emotional too. I went for a day trip out of Juneau on a 54' steel sight seeing boat with twin 8VDD engines and I stood at the transom much of the time listening to the*sweet song from the exhaust. Each engine*having as many power strokes as a 16 cyl 4-stroke engine. There was a time when almost all logging equipment and diesel*boats about 40' were powered by the*famous two stroke Detroit Diesel. Emotional .. no?

Eric Henning

nomadwilly wrote:

John .. how can you say a DD is naturally aspirated??? They are a 2-stroke and won't even start without the blower.

Click to expand...

As I understand it, the "blower" on a naturally aspirated DD does a different job than the blower on a 4-stroke engine.* The DD's blower is there to evacuate the combustion chamber of the gasses left after combustion.* It isn't compressing the air in the sense that a turbocharger/supercharger is on a 4-stroke.

In fact, while every DD has a "blower," I believe there are NA DDs and Turbocharged DDs on which there is a true turbocharger that feeds more air to the engine.* The turbocharger is in addition to the evactuation "blower" that all DDs have.

If I have mis-stated the workings of the DD I appologize. I've never run one or had one--- I'm just parrotting from*memory*what a good friend who's had two boats with 8V-71s told me.

My Perkins 4-236 sounds pretty sweet every time I crank it. Just chugs right along.

"If I have mis-stated the workings of the DD I appologize."

You got it right. The blower on a 2 stroke DD is there to scavenge the cylinder of exhaust and refill it with fresh air. The blower supplies just over 1.3 times the cylinder volume on a 71 series engine, the excess is there to cool the exhaust valves.

The blower supplies slightly over atmospheric pressure to the airbox, it has to to overcome exhaust backpressure to scavenge the cylinder, but it is not a supercharger, it does not provide boost in order to produce more power. The versions which have a blower and*turbocharger will provide boost and produce more power.

Natural and normally aspirated are terms that can cause some confusion. Natural aspiration is*how most 4 stroke engines operate, the open intake valve allows atmospheric pressure to fill the cylinder as the piston moves down. When the valve closes the pressure in the cylinder is less than atmospheric because of inlet losses. Volumetric efficiency is less than 100 percent.

Normally aspirated engines may*use a blower of some sort to supply sufficient air to scavenge the cylinder and provide a fresh air charge of*equivalent weight to sea level density. That is the object of all those "turbonormalizing" setups on Bonanzas and Mooneys, they use a turbo to provide just enough pressure to overcome intake system losses and in the case of aircraft, density loss with altitude. Normalized and supercharged engines are greater than 100 percent volumetrically efficient ... their cylinders fill with greater weight of air than an equal volume at atmospheric pressure.

There are two turbocharging systems on the old detroits, one uses a turbo that discharges into the blower inlet, and another that incorporates a "bypass" valve that lets the turbocharger discharge go directly to the airbox above a certain power level.*Doing that unloads the blower and reduces the power required to drive it as well as boosting inlet pressure to make even more power.

A third system used on larger GM products, the EMD 2 strokes used on ships, large generators,*and locomotives, uses a gear driven centrifigual blower with an over-running clutch. When the engine output is sufficiently high to produce enough exhaust gas to drive the blower, it becomes a turbocharger and disconnects from the drive system.

GM/DD/EMD got pretty clever at getting more power out of the same basic engine by playing with charge air systems. Sorry to go so long but*I think it is*an interesting subject ...

-- Edited by RickB at 21:38, 2009-01-14

-- Edited by RickB at 21:44, 2009-01-14

Rick,

There is no confusion about the terms normally aspirated and naturally aspirated .. they are one and the same except that normally aspirated is incorrect.*I understand what you said about aircraft engines and normally aspirated may apply there but on a boating*forum normally aspirated has no place.*On any marine engine brochure the term naturally aspirated will be used indicating that the engine breaths naturally as a result of atmospheric pressure and the downward plunging piston.*Since the intake*ports are at the bottom of the cylinder on a 2 stroke*DD*intake air must be pushed into the cylinder by the blower.**Many people don't realize that there are holes around the bottom of the cylinder for intake air and the valves (*that look like 4 stroke engine*valves )*at the top of the cylinder*are only for exhaust. Because it scavenges so much air the DD could probably be said to be internally air cooled, however every stroke is a power stroke so the DD probably needs the cooling effect due to the increased heat.*
Gulf Comanche, Yes, our little 4 cyl 4 stroke engines may sound* sweet and even but the big old DD sounds AWSOME!

Eric Henning***

Willy, we have been thru this before ref the longevity issue. I challenge you to search yachrworld and see how many high time cummins engines are out ther.....not many
Draw your own conclusion.

-- Edited by Baker at 18:09, 2009-01-15

" search yachrworld and see how many high time cummins engines are out ther.....not many"

Could as easily be initial cost or difficulty with builder- dealer network vs engine reliability .

FF

John:

I suggest you search the number of Cummins engines that are on the road. Trucks, motorhomes, etc. More than any other engine I can think of. Please don't throw rocks at my engine of choice. (Having had most of the other brands over the past 20 years.)

Walt

(My opinion and experience, of course!)