superior features of a wood vessel

what are the advantages of wood over plastic, etc.

bfloyd4445 said:

what are the advantages of wood over plastic, etc.

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Wood is the most beautiful material for fine interior boat finishes. IMHO - not for hulls and other exterior purposes due to its maintenance requirements and rot potentials.

You can put a nail in the hull anywhere to hang stuff.

Wood belongs in the interior.

For a hull material - not much. One could argue that there are wood boats over 100 years old still afloat, and no glass boats that can make the same claim. While this may be true, I believe this is a moot point. Wood boats are a labor of love that require constant attention and maintenance compared to a glass boat.

Be prepared for more frequent surveys, possible replanking if a problem is found, higher insurance rates, higher labor costs, etc.

The advantage of wood over plastic....that's an easy one. While those who own wood hulled boats are lovingly enjoying the sanding, refinishing, etc. of their beautiful popsicle stick hulls, those of us with Tupperware boats will be stuck aboard somewhere with an adult beverage firmly planted in our hand.

Now before any of you vote to toss me off here, let me say that I'm kidding. I love the beauty of a wood hulled boat and love wood interiors. But the fact is that I'm not THAT much of a DIY'er who gets off on maintaining wood. That's why I own a Tupperware boat.

Clint Eastwood said it best in one of his Dirty Harry movies...."A man's got to know his limitations." I know mine.

Clint is a very smart fellow.

Wood boats are stronger, lighter (or both to a lesser degree) quieter, usually easier to repair, better looking, more insulative, easier for a non-boat builder to build and because of the abundance of people that aren't aware of the real advantages of wood, wood boats are very cheap now.

Other people`s wooden boats are a delight to look at. As Mark says, it is a very nice feature inside a boat.
But for me that`s about as far as it goes. Even wooden windows are prone to rot. I thanked my lucky stars my boat had foam sandwich decks during the current deck renovation; the 2 places teak was used in the deck substrate were soft, black, damp, and transferring moisture to the cabin.They were replaced with foam.
But I do like looking at wooden boats. I even go to wooden boat shows.

BruceK,

It's a mistake to embalm wood in plastic as it needs to breath.

There are lots of wonderful cars to have and drive that are more trouble to maintain than a Toyota Corolla.

manyboats said:

There are lots of wonderful cars to have and drive that are more trouble to maintain than a Toyota Corolla.

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Eric, I`ve owned some of them. If I think of buying another Jaguar (remember the proud owners boast " drove 800km from Sydney to Melbourne and it only caught fire once") I have a cup of tea and a good lie down. If that ever fails I will seek medical help.
But I still like looking at wooden boats. "Just looking,thanks".

manyboats said:

BruceK,

It's a mistake to embalm wood in plastic as it needs to breath.

There are lots of wonderful cars to have and drive that are more trouble to maintain than a Toyota Corolla.

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Wood doesn't need to breathe.

The problem with glass over wood is that it's almost never done on a 100% dry hull.

manyboats said:

BruceK,

It's a mistake to embalm wood in plastic as it needs to breath.

.

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Um.... no it doesn't. Witness the subdecks on most of our cruisers that are a sandwich of fiberglass-wood-fiberglass. No breathing there. When you varnish or Bristol or whatever a piece of wood all the way around, no breathing there.

The wood you make a boat out of is dead. It doesn't need to breathe. However it does need to be absolutely dry when you seal it up. If it's at all moist and you seal it up it can't dry out so it will eventually rot. But if it's absolutely dry when you seal it up, it will last forever or as long as whatever is sealing it remains moisture-proof.

See Pau Hana's post above for another cause of wood failure in glassed-over boats.

Ok devils advocate time.

A wooden boat is more attractive. It looks like a boat, not a floating Winnebago.

A wood boat feels more solid. A wood boat though is lighter than the same displacement plastic boat, making it more efficient.A wood boat is much easier to modify. Because wood is able to absorb and release water, a wooden boat will actually get less condensation and dampness on it than a fiberglass one. This means less dampness to deal with inside and out.

Wooden boats actually need much less maintenance than plastic boats. Despite all the technology we have, a plastic boat will deteriorate continually, and there is little that can be done to prevent it. De-lamination, grinding and filling blisters is no fun. Then spending money on that barrier coat, then bottom paint as well.

The horror stories we all read about are on boats that there has been no maintenance for decades, not a properly maintained wooden boat.

Eric, I`ve owned some of them. If I think of buying another Jaguar (remember the proud owners boast " drove 800km from Sydney to Melbourne and it only caught fire once") I have a cup of tea and a good lie down. If that ever fails I will seek medical help.




Darn! BruceK had to go and do it!! I own a Jaguar XJS 94 4.0 coupe. O Lord, the money I have spent over the years and the many trips we have taken with our cheeks up around our ears as we wait for the next adventure! (Your kidding-Ha the last adventure had us waiting five days in Smithers B.C. for an alternator out of Edemonton Alberta. $485.00 for the alternator and 1/2 hour labor to install!! Thank Gosh there is a dandy golf course in Smithers!
Too- I recently sold our 53 year old wooden converted harbor tug . It was a labor of love but then I have a 16 foot Norwegian lapstrake that is over 50 years old, a 18 foot Polsbo Skiff that was built in 1936 which is powered by a one cyl. Yanmar diesel. All as it has been stated, are a work of love.
Now we have this Marben trawler. where the tug was 19,000 # the Marben is 10,000# It is a different boat for sure and is taking some time to become accustom to the difference.
With our little tug, it was always amazing to pull into a strange float/dock, and if the space were tight, and snoot full of confidence, make a "seine boat landing" where you make a quick approach drop it into nutral, spin the wheel and pull it into reverse, sucking the stern right into the float. 30 foot boat in a 34-36 foot space. Then the fun begins as those watching off the larger and vastly more costly large commodious million dollar (Over 30,000-100,000#) yachts, particularly the ladies on board, flock over with their cameras to take photos of this humble well appointed, highly varnished bright-work work boat/converted.
Aaaaa the pride of wood boat complete.
As others have stated, in more youthful manner, it is a fact of physical age that makes a convert out of years of maintenance that allows many of us aging boat bums to acknowledge the eventuality of listening to the siren of the sea in the form of fiberglass.


A.M.(Al) Johnson-Ketchikan
Marben 27' pocket trawler

"what are the advantages of wood over plastic, etc.


They are ysually really cheap to purchase , and frequently 10X to 100X as much work to maintain.

If NOT maintaines to perfection (no deck leaks) the boat will depart to rot heaven.

The big advantage to new wood construction is a custom (not a cookie) is no harder to build .

That is true in steel and aluminum too.

"Wood boats are stronger, lighter (or both to a lesser degree) quieter,"

I would agree would CAN BE stronger (tho its rare) and indeed they can be far lighter , at the cost of strength and longevity. Marine foam core GRP is quiet and insulated, but expensive.

Choose what you prefer.

manyboats said:

Wood boats are stronger (design can change that), lighter (or both to a lesser degree) quieter (diagree but depends on design), usually easier to repair (depends on the repair and skills of the repairer and tools available), better looking (probably the ONLY difference I'll agree to), more insulative (not over cored plastic), easier for a non-boat builder to build and because of the abundance of people that aren't aware of the real advantages of wood (why build something that has so few advantages...I'd go metal first), wood boats are very cheap now (they are cheap because of having so few advantages and if it was properly cared for and looks good...it's more expensive than plastic) .

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Wood boats won't burn as quick as a Fiberglass boat.
Easier motion in a seaway.

An amazing amount of facts mixed in w endless opinions but it appears as long as a boat is designed well, constructed well and maintained well any universal building material will do fine.

I'll withdraw my "breathing" comment.

dhmeissner and Al,
Supporting an unpopular thing has it's doom, gloom and defeat moments but there is the joy, challenge and set the record straight satisfaction that comes by riding the dark horse and you guys have done well indeed. I like to do it and I like to see it done .. and done well.

As to rotting wood
Ask not what your boat dosn't do but what your boat can do.
A yacht is made to please and wood does it better.
How do I like my plastic boats? .. fine.
It's too bad a plastic boat isn't strong enough to stand by itself as it needs wood to hold it together.

Ok I confess.

My RW35 has a fiberglass hull. I'm glad it does, the rest of the boat is wood and I'm happy about that. When I set out in pursuit of a RW35 I found one near Vancouver, and had it surveyed. It has a wooden hull that had been neglected. Cost to bring her back exceeded the asking price so I bailed. The near grand I spent saved me 30.

My San Juan 23 sailboat is also fiberglass. Someday I will have a wooden sailboat just because I want one. I'm a member...The Center for Wooden Boats
Great organization. I was part of the Puffin team one year, till I had to move overseas, I will be back this summer though and volunteer again.
Steam Launch: Puffin | The Center for Wooden Boats

Boat materials

Wood boats rot from the top down, fiberglass from the bottom up, steel from the inside out and aluminum just goes up like a fizzy. Pick your poison.
RandyT

randyt said:

Wood boats rot from the top down, fiberglass from the bottom up, steel from the inside out and aluminum just goes up like a fizzy. Pick your poison.
RandyT

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Spot on RandyT!
I've played with a bit of osmosis and rust over the years, but overall I still prefer rot. Of course given an open ended budget, I'd be tempted to try a bit of that Dashew fizz.

You guys ought to come out to Carolina sometime and visit the custom sportfish makers at Jarrett Bay or on Roanoke Island. Wood is still the material of choice out here for these multi million dollar battlewagons, on down to the Harkers island skiffs. The construction is pretty high tech and to be sure involves a lot of epoxy. Check out brands such as Spencer, Paul Mann, Jarrett Bay to name but three. Incredible craftsmanship. According to the captains that run them, the ride/speed combination hasn't been beat by Hatteras and Viking without adding lots of horse power and weight.

Wood boats look better, ride better, are quieter and have petter performance and re the last post it looks like you get what you pay for. Better things cost more money and require more effort.

Hull Material

eagle419 said:

Spot on RandyT!
I've played with a bit of osmosis and rust over the years, but overall I still prefer rot. Of course given an open ended budget, I'd be tempted to try a bit of that Dashew fizz.

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I call a Dashew boat "dreaming in the unlimited catagory". I have followed his work for years and he does it right. Seems like he always starts out with a clean sheet of paper when he designs a boat. Plus he doesn't give a hoot about what the marketing guys have say.
RandyT

randyt said:

Wood boats rot from the top down, And, worms come in from bottom up, fiberglass from the bottom up Not well applied layers of thick hand laid FRP with good resin and thick gel coat, steel from the inside out, And, outside in as well as anywhere in between. and aluminum just goes up like a fizzy... I think that's where Alka Seltzer got its idea! Pick your poison.

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randyt said:

RandyT

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Randy - see bold inserts to your copy above... hope you don't mind, simplest way I could comment on your post.

This link proves the resiliency of FRP (its header is copied below): http://www.shieldsfleetone.org/Photos/Photos_231_Salvage/231%20salvage.htm Other studies I’ve read state that well laid FRP could last 100 years or longer. I can knowingly state: Our 35 year old Tollycraft hull shows NO degradation. Bottom remains blister free. Superstructure FRP, cored or otherwise, is still in good condition. Only “rot” we have at on our Tolly is the ronnt few inches of port mahogney spacer used for bolting out bridge to salon top. Eventually I will replace that wood with thick plastic bars.

The Salvage of Shields #231: Shields #231 sank in 60 feet of water in 1999 by swamping in an Easterly. She was floated again on October 2, 2002 by fleet members H.L. DeVore and Bill Gerety with significant assistance from Lada Sinek, Howie McMichael and Bo Bohmert of Bohmert Marine. #231 is due to be refitted and rechristened "Mermaid" and will be rejoining Fleet #1.

Here is how I sum up the difference between a wood boat and a glass boat, at least in this climate (PNW). Assuming open moorage, if you park a glass boat and go away for a year, when you come back the glass boat will be really, really dirty and some of the systems in the boat won't work when you turn them on or try to use them. Rainwater will have found its way into the bilge around deck hatches and vents and will be puddled in the bilge. Other than that, the boat will be pretty much as you left it.

If you park a wood boat and go away for a year, when you come back the wood boat will be really, really dirty and some of the systems in the boat won't work when you turn them on or try to use them. In addition the wood boat will have developed leaks around the windows and other places allowing fresh water to saturate the frames, walls, etc. and dry rot will most likely have gotten a toe-hold. Likewise the rainwater that leaked in through hatches and vents will be puddled in the bilge after soaking down various boards on its way there, and dry rot will most likely have gotten a toe hold.

The owner of the glass boat will be facing a major exterior clean up effort as well as the repair of whatever systems--- toilets, electronics, etc.--- no longer worked when he got back. The owner of the wood boat will be facing the same things plus the potential of some major wood repair, some of it structural.

That to me is the only important difference between a wood boat and a glass boat.

I like wood boats, and if they were properly constructed with appropriate materials and are kept up, preferably inside in this region, they can last a long, long time and the upkeep, while different, will not require much more effort than a glass boat. I have seen GB woodies that are in spectacular condition, and these are boats that were all built in the 1960s and very early 70s.

But I would never own a wood boat simply because I have not got the time to care for one properly and I'm not going to spend the money on a boathouse. We can let some things slide with our glass boat and know that the situation will not deteriorate farther if we do.

Right now there is a classic, wood, 40 foot Chris Craft on our dock that the owner lived on for some ten years. He no longer does and the boat has been for sale for the last two-three years. The owner comes down when he can and tries to keep up with the boat but it is obvious it is getting away from him. As opposed to when he lived on it and could catch things before they became problems. Our rainy winter has started and the boat's deterioration is accelerating simply because the owner is no longer there every day to look after it.

There is also a virtually abandoned fiberglass 36 or so foot Chris Craft on our dock that gets no attention at all and hasn't for years. It too, is for sale. It's filthy, and I have no idea of the condition of the boat's systems and engines. But it has been purchased a couple of times and the new owners whipped the boat back into presentable shape in a couple of weekends of hard work. These sales fell through for some reason and the boat would sink back into getting filthy again. But it wasn't physically deteriorating as the wood Chris Craft is a few slips away.

So what's your point Marin?

manyboats said:

So what's your point Marin?

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Well, there isn't one really. Those are what I feel are the differences between the two materials with regard to building boats with them. If you're looking for me to say that one is superior to the other I'm not going to do it because I don't think either one of them is inherently superior.

I think it all depends on how the boat is going to be treated over time.

For the lifestyle of the typical boat owner today, particularly one who like me is working full time, I feel a glass boat is the far better choice over a traditionally built wood boat simply because it can stand up to being ignored for significant lengths of time.

I'm told by people in our marina who know us that my wife and I are in the tiny majority of people in our 2000+ boat harbor who actually use their boats year round. Which doesn't necessarily mean take the boat out every time but we use it almost every weekend--- stay on it, operate the systems, and so on.

But most of the boats in our marina are ignored all winter and some are ignored all summer, too, other than perhaps one or two outings. If they're glass, they don't suffer much other than getting dirty.

For a person with more time, a wood boat can be every bit as easy to maintain as a glass one. As I mentioned, I have seen some better-than-new GB woodies over the years. Almost all of them boathouse kept and almost all of them retiree-owned.

I don't think glass boats are inherently uglier than wood boats although I think most of them are uglier. I think glass boats lend themselves to mass production which means keeping costs low to appeal to the greatest number of buyers which means keeping molds simple and the boat manufacturing itself labor-unintensive. All of which pretty much back you into the corner of less than ideal aesthetics, at least in my book. It's why an Aston Martin looks a hell of a lot nicer than a Ford Fusion.

I don't feel it's the wood that makes most wood boats more aesthetic than most glass boats, I believe it's the people who designed and built the wood boats that made them more aesthetic. There is no physical reason that a glass boat can't look every bit as nice. For example, there is a company making fiberglass versions of the Lake Union Dreamboat and you can't tell them apart from the originals. But you pay a price for this because of the labor required to make them look like that.

So I don't think wood is superior, nor do I think fiberglass is superior. Not until you define some stuff, like how the boat will be kept and treated and the attitude of the owner toward the boat. Then one material can prove to be superior over the other in that particular case.

I know you're looking for me to make a stand, Eric, and say all wood boats suck or all glass boats suck or something like that. But I don't think that a claim like that can be made, at least not on a rational level. If I had the time, the money (to have a boathouse in this climate), and the maintenance and repair skills I would have no issue with owning a wood boat. But I don't have any of that and don't ever anticipate having any of that. Which is why I say I would never own a wood boat. A glass boat I can get away with given my limitations.

I believe it's the people who designed and built the wood boats that made them more aesthetic.

Wooden boats are built usually one at a time , so the owners input is required, and usually a NA is involved.Some have a great eye.

GRP boats are usually made from a mold and to amortize the mold cost about 100 hopefully will be made.

Selling a mass market cookie is very different from pleasing a knowledgible owner.

When the sales pitch is mere volume at low cost , quality ,performance , repairability and most of the requirements to operate the vessel over decades is missing.

You get what you pay for,