Nordhavn runs aground Ocean Reef

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The example of not being able to turn to port with back and fill in 50" I had the same issue.

With no thruster it wasn't a lot of fun or pretty, but I would just back out if the distance and current wasn't too great.

If I didn't think that possible..... I would sometimes back out till the bowsprit was alongside the outer piling, tie off tight then spring through the wind or current a bit.
I then would go forward, untie, push off the piling hard and go on my merry way.
 
Right now in Coinjock. Just watched. 55-60’er with one person on board stay motionless in the middle of the channel while a large KK docked. Boat didn’t move an inch as he walked around and set up lines. Probably aliasing props. Made bubbles to suggest twins and stern/bow thrusters. Then turned 180 to get parallel to his open place on the dock and docked. Then left the helm to throw lines. This all occurred with a knot and half to 2 knots running. I know Gardners and greys with no thrusters were de rigor awhile back and still work just fine in most situations. But for short handed recreational guys like me bring on the aids. The boat I just watched has tech several generations past mine. Sometimes I read stuff on TF and wonder are we hunting bison or mammoths.
We came in in similar circumstances. Did back and fill to turn the 180 and face the current. Mild 10k breeze blowing us off. Mostly used rudder and throttle but truly appreciated the bow thruster to get the last few feet so dock hand could grab a bow line and then the stern thrusters to get my ass in. There’s no room at this Inn. I have maybe 4’ in front of me with a Monitor wind vane in front of me. I have maybe 3-4’ behind me with a bow sprit just about over my dinghy. Say what ever you want. Maybe you’re a better man than me Gunga Dinn. But I totally love thrusters.
 
Scott what you describe is back and fill. Using reverse as well allows you to do a full 360 without moving backwards or forwards. Boats either have a right handed or left handed screw. Most US single screws are right handed. They like to go to starboard with strong right rudder more than to port with short port rudder in many cases.
 
In my case, even with the benefit of prop walk, my too small rudder is nearly useless when backing. So, if there’s current or wind during my 180 in tight waters, I need to use the thrusters.
 
I am trying to imagine the circumstance, outside of docking and significant course changes, in which I need to make a quick and sudden change. In every scenario I can imagine, my first move is to use the sticks, not the rudders, which stands to reason because a boat reacts much more quickly to throttles and gears than to rudders. In those circumstances, the rudders (which are centered anyway) become secondary. In fact, when I am coming into my home port on a nice weekend day, there are often, unavoidably, a continuous stream of boats within 50'. At those times, my AP is typically keeping the boat on its heading, but I stand at the helm with my hands on the throttles/gears, ready to respond immediately to whatever boat might fail to understand the rules of the road. If I had to steer, I couldn't respond as quickly with the throttles. All of that said, 5 knots is less than 10' per second, so in every real-world circumstance I have plenty of time to stop my boat before a possible collision.

Since I have a single engine, that's not an option for me. An example of a quick and sudden change is that you are cruising along on autopilot and you see something in the water not far ahead that you couldn't see sooner. A partially submerged log for instance. I also sometimes see lobster pot bouys that are almost fully submerged either from currents or sea stae, or because the lobsterman used only a single bouy that is not brightly colored and hard to spot much in advance. Also, I cruise much faster than 5 knots.

Curious though, if you use the sticks to make a sudden change in direction, won't the a/p fight you and try to keep on course? Not saying you can't win that fight but doesn't sound ideal to me.
 
As far as thrusters, I love them. Certain docking situations are difficult or unsafe without one. Different topic though.

I'm not the one that brought thrusters into the conversation.

I just thought it was a bit contradictory to say you should use a/p so you don't have to focus on steering, but when docking, thrusters are looked down upon as a crutch and you are better off spending a lot of attention to rudders and engines (speed and direction) rather focusing on the situation. Not saying that you shouldn't learn to manuever w/o them, but why not use them if it makes it easier and you can have better situational awareness as everyone claims should be a priority?
 
In my case, even with the benefit of prop walk, my too small rudder is nearly useless when backing. So, if there’s current or wind during my 180 in tight waters, I need to use the thrusters.

Same with me. Single prop in a tunnel, small rudder. Need to turn the boat quickly in a narrow space while dealing with strong tidal current in a river. I do practice w/o them, but there are times that I find it impossible if the current is really running.
 
You do have a lot to learn.

I always though that's why I stay on TF, to help others through the process.

I would never pretend to have your level of skill or experience. However, I'd suggest you also have some things to learn. Not about boating, but about interpersonal skills. Demeaning and insulting others is not helpful to them. Nothing else to add to this thread from me. Carry on.
 
Earlier went down the AICW. Started in RI but AICW from Norfolk on down. Now going up the AICW. 95+% on the time on AP.

I’m still a newbie. My boat is ~45’ loa with the freedom lift. It likes to do back and fill to starboard but not to port so much. Bow blows off in a cross breeze. In a 50’ fairway I don’t have the skills to reliably turn the boat 180 degrees without thruster help.

Three options. First is don't go in the first place (davits can do a lot of expensive damage). Second is back-out (usually the best option). Third is to tuck the bow between two boats to give stern swinging room.

Anyone who says a seasoned owner of a no-thruster single approaches this the same as with a thruster is wrong. Perhaps in their home berth where they've mastered all possible issues, but not elsewhere. Every so often something happens where there's a complication and you just need a margin for error. A thruster just allows a boat to reliably perform tight procedures. Twins too. Just depends on whether you venture far from home or not.

Peter
 
I'm not the one that brought thrusters into the conversation.



I just thought it was a bit contradictory to say you should use a/p so you don't have to focus on steering, but when docking, thrusters are looked down upon as a crutch and you are better off spending a lot of attention to rudders and engines (speed and direction) rather focusing on the situation. Not saying that you shouldn't learn to manuever w/o them, but why not use them if it makes it easier and you can have better situational awareness as everyone claims should be a priority?

Your point was well taken. I bristle when folks talk about thrusters being a crutch too. I'm above average (well was, pretty rusty these days), but not a master. Some boats are easier to drive than others. A thruster improves all whether they are single or twin.

I do take partial issue with the statement about APs. Used properly, they too are a great enabler. And they do allow the helmsman to focus on other navigation issues.

I hate hand steering. Probably why I suck at it. When I sailed, my friend would quickly relieve me at the helm which I took advantage of often.

Peter
 
We are really suffering from thread drift. LOL
I have no problem.
 
I would never pretend to have your level of skill or experience. However, I'd suggest you also have some things to learn. Not about boating, but about interpersonal skills. Demeaning and insulting others is not helpful to them. Nothing else to add to this thread from me. Carry on.


Maybe I would have been less blunt (was not demeaning :nonono:) had you not been sarcastic after others agreed with me that obviously had/have similar training and experience.

The people I know from trawler forum personally and the amount of positive feedback I get for being a simplistic and up front person may not be liked by most, but some think it is just fine.....

I am not running for office.... :D
 
Discussing a mishap with no real info or facts (yet) is bound to either wither or take on a new life.

Sit back and enjoy the ride..... :popcorn:
 
Maybe I would have been less blunt (was not demeaning :nonono:) had you not been sarcastic after others agreed with me that obviously had/have similar training and experience.

The people I know from trawler forum personally and the amount of positive feedback I get for being a simplistic and up front person may not be liked by most, but some think it is just fine.....

I am not running for office.... :D

We all have different levels of experience. May I suggest, we ALL come to TF for ideas, suggestions and recommendations. And yes, sometimes we do get carried away with our ‘observations’. (That is a nicer word than criticism)

That’s a lot of words to say, ‘lighten up and try real hard to not be offended” by someone elses ‘observations’.
Now, I am returning everyone to the “off topics” of AP and thrusters.
 
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Ok here’s my current situation. Portside tie. Sail boat in front with wind vane hanging off his stern (my bow). Wind vane in folded up so maybe 3’ away. Sailboat behind me. Two anchors sticking out again maybe 3’ behind me. I have a freedom lift with a Rigid dingy on it with a 40hp yama. The Rigid is grp not air or foam filled. There’s a 3kt current running on my bow at present. Here currents are wind driven but vary depending upon a lock.

Backing out doesn’t sound like fun even with a line lopped around a piling without using the stern thruster kicking me out enough to miss the anchors and sailboat behind me. I’ll be fighting the current. Thrusters are 8hp. Going forward doesn’t sound like fun as my stern will kick in with the bow thruster if I don’t also use the stern thruster. I can’t pivot off my stern without wrecking my Rigid dinghy as you can’t get a fender there. Still prefer going into a current than with a current as steering is so much more responsive at slow speeds.

It’s a single right handed screw. Morning winds should be on my starboard quarter. Should mention neither tide charts nor current information from navionics nor c-map is helpful. Best way to tell is a small fleck of paper into the water and watch it here.

What would you do?

Is it even possible to out of here without thrusters?

I hav plan but will post after replies and suggestions.

BTW the overwhelming amount of folks learn poorly or not at all when pissed off, attacked, demeaned, ridiculed or offended. If it’s your intention to actually teach people things a major change in behavior would be helpful to your stated intentions. Otherwise it’s just a display of hubris. There’s a variety of people here. Some don’t have your background but their backgrounds aren’t too shabby either. I’ve learned a lot from Peter, TT, Steve and many others. I’ve learned very little from you. I’ve been frequently offended.
 
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It is approaching 2am. I am up to ‘check the doors again’. Without taxing my brain, I would say it is a matter of choosing either a bow line or a stern line, depending which line, shift the rudder, shift the trans either fwd or aft, depending on the line used, one end or the other will move away from the dock.
When the position is right, retrieve the line and “party on”.
Did I get close?
 
With 3 kts current, extreme caution. Wind is meaningless. 3 kts is equivalent to a brisk walking pace - things happen fast and can sometimes get away from you very quickly. Capable crew is essential.

Rule #1: ALWAYS work into the prevailing forces. If current is coming on your bow (meaning passing beneath you fore to aft), you will be exiting in forward. Backing out would be an immediate disaster.

Because you will be going forward, right hand prop will help. One small thing in your favor. A small current could also help (I'm having a hard time imaging a safe departure with 3 kts regardless of the boat).

Crew will hold the boat with a spring from aft port cleat forward, doubled back so they can retrieve very quickly. You can hold the bow against the side tie with thruster if needed. Shouldn't take much until you start to swing out.

Helmsman cannot see aft so really needs a good lateral sight line reference to gauge space behind the boat. Needs to focus on keeping the bow as close to the boat ahead as possible knowing that as long as bow is close, stern is clear. Need to inform crew of your visual so they dont get nervous about distance at stern and start screaming. Good news is wind vanes are narrow so once your bow is clear, you have an extra 4 feet or so.

Given the current, goal is to steer your way out but not allow the boat to move forward or backwards. In a way, boat ends are ateered separately. Front is steered with bow thruster, aft with either thruster or rudder (or a little of both).

Swing bow out with thruster. Once clear of the wind vane in front, go to forward gear and oooch forward a bit. Linesman removed springline and brightly says when clear. Helm to port to swing stern to starboard. Enough forward gear and throttle to keep boat from going backwards and slide to starboard, perhaps making some forward headway as you clear the wind vane.

So that's the theory. Bow out with thruster. Stay as close as possible to obstruction ahead. Steer the stern away from side tie (Helm to port). What could possibly go wrong? Linesman doesn't clear line quickly. Helmsman doesn't keep boat close to forward obstruction. Helmsman gets confused and grabs something wrong or guns the throttle when crew starts screaming.

The above said, 3 kts current scares the hell out of me. 1 kt, maybe 1.5 is workable.

What if current were coming other ditection - from the stern? Spring is reversed. Still steer both ends separately and work into the current but it won't be nearly as easy. Helmsman will still focus on the bow relative to forward obstruction since stern sight lines are obstructed.

Potential for serious damage is definitely elevated by high current. A little bit is helpful. 3 kts is way over the line. Local knowledge on current swings would be helpful.

Years ago I was with a friend on his Irwin 52 sailboat. Plus a davit hung RIB off the stern. We departed Ft Lauderdale down the New River at about 12am on an ebb tide so we were headed with the current. One of the draw bridges opened as we approached and then inexplicably stopped opening when about 70% open - plates were maybe 10 feet apart. We started backing away up river with very little steerage. A slight dogleg in the river didn't help. We were ranged alongside a large sport fisherman at a sales dock. We landed side to it but came in pretty hot. We were pinned by the current for several hours. Because of the dinghy off the stern, we just couldn't figure out how to safely pivot out so we just waited for current to subside. We left a note on the sportfjisher but never heard anything. There had to be some kind of mark or minor damage.

Current is scary. Some boating areas such as the upper Columbia deal with it full time. I'd imagine some of those folks are pretty good. Or they don't use their boats much.

At any rate, thats my best thinking.

Peter
 
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Otherwise it’s just a display of hubris. There’s a variety of people here. Some don’t have your background but their backgrounds aren’t too shabby either. I’ve learned a lot from Peter, TT, Steve and many others. I’ve learned very little from you. I’ve been frequently offended.


Psneeld may be blunt, but I like his depth of knowledge on so many topics and that he generally presents facts and his unvarnished opinion. And I like that he does this in language that mere mortals can understand. From my perspective, he's one of the top ten most valuable contributors on TF and I have learned a lot from him. Having sold his boat, he has little reason to hang around here, that I can see. It would be a shame if he started contributing less simply because some can't tolerate his style.
 
H
Best I understand you’re stuck between two sail boats all on a side tie. If there is an experienced skipper on board either ask them to untie and depart first so you can do the same.
 
All great suggestions. As Peter says maybe a blown day. Other confounder is there’s a lock ahead which now opens only every 2 hours.
Intend to do pretty much what Peter says. I’m faced the wrong way for travel having gone in against the current. Intend o run parallel to all the boats before attempting to turn around. Then back/fill to starboard. Only modification is to set up a spring from midship to forward as the last attached line . Should help take the boat behind me out of the equation. This morning I have 10kts of wind on my stern but the bow thruster is new and should be able to kick me out. I’m worried about the pilings hitting the Rigid dinghy. So wait until a dock hand shows up and tells me when and if the current drops. Looks much less this morning. Ideally do this at slack. Also although we usually don’t need dockhands once we loop lines around pilings and bring them back to the boat. This time want a strong body pushing my stern off.

No question PSN could communicate a font of knowledge. Only saying imho he would be more effective teacher losing the abrasiveness. Been dressed down by folks who are professionals at it. May serve to motivate you (or pack up your bags and leave). But the learning doesn’t usually occur during the dressing down. That happens by yourself or the supportive help of others. That style works just fine in military settings. No choice but to “sir yes sir”. No opportunity to leave. This is casual voluntary web site.
 
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You could also tie the wheel in position with a couple of short ropes.
Yep. Loose enough wrap that when I run below I can still steer to avoid.
Old Benmar to starboard of helm. 20220906_140703.jpg20220906_123203.jpg20220907_200442.jpg
 
Right now in Coinjock. Just watched. 55-60’er with one person on board stay motionless in the middle of the channel while a large KK docked. Boat didn’t move an inch as he walked around and set up lines. Probably aliasing props. Made bubbles to suggest twins and stern/bow thrusters. Then turned 180 to get parallel to his open place on the dock and docked. Then left the helm to throw lines. This all occurred with a knot and half to 2 knots running.

My boat is a Sabre 38 with Volvo Penta IPS pods, Garmin AP and a function called "Assisted Docking".

Somewhere in the boat there is a computer that tells the pods what to do based on input from the AP, joystick, wheel, and an accurate GPS antenna.

In Assisted Docking mode, the boat will maintain its position regardless of wind and current (obviously within reason). Manipulating the joy stick will cause it to pivot in position either continuously or in 4 degree increments. It will move forward or sideways either continuously or in 0.5 meter increments. Once along a dock it can be put in Side Power mode and it will push against the dock and not move.

I know that this seems like "cheating" but it allows me to leave my slip and return alone with much less concern for the conditions. The boat mentioned in the quote likely had Assisted Docking or something similar.
 
With thrusters, I don't think they're automatically a crutch, but some people use them as one. They rely heavily on the thrusters without ever getting an understanding of how the boat moves (I have the same complaint about joystick controls). In my mind, you learn to control the boat, then you add in the thrusters to make it do things you can't otherwise do easily or at all.

As far as spinning a boat with a single, if you turn opposite of the prop walk in reverse, you can get most singles to spin. If it walks to port in reverse, it'll only spin to stbd. Rudder hard to stbd and alternate fwd/rev, shifting frequently enough to keep the boat from moving forward or backward any meaningful amount. That should produce a reasonable spin on most boats, as you're alternating between pushing the stern over with prop wash and the rudder and then pulling it further over with prop walk in reverse.


In certain situations, like the strong current Weebles mentioned, the minimum space around you required to maneuver out increases. If the space isn't available, you may have to wait for better conditions. Same story with strong wind, depending on wind direction. And you're not going to be doing it solo, as you need to be on the controls already when the last line is dropped.

I wouldn't try to back out into a strong current with a single, but with twins, it's possible depending on what's around you and the exact angle of the current to the dock. If the current isn't pushing you away from the dock and you've got some space behind you, you may be best off peeling the stern off the dock (use a spring to help if needed) and quickly backing away at however much angle is required to clear boats behind you (the current will push you along the dock as you do this, hence needing space behind). Or you can kick the bow off the dock a bit (which depending on the boat and geometry limitations like davits can be a challenge), let the current start to pivot you, then power forward out of the spot.

I absolutely agree that a 3 kt current would make any of those maneuvers a bit hairy. I'd be much more comfortable getting onto a face dock aimed into that current than I would be departing in that current.
 
Excellent post especially this first paragraph.
With thrusters, I don't think they're automatically a crutch, but some people use them as one. They rely heavily on the thrusters without ever getting an understanding of how the boat moves (I have the same complaint about joystick controls). In my mind, you learn to control the boat, then you add in the thrusters to make it do things you can't otherwise do easily or at all.
I will comment that learning how to handle your boat backing in a variety of conditions and for some distance adds a very valuable tool to your kit. Once comfortable with the technique you can often avoid trying to trun 180 degrees in tight or challenging situation. Just don't try to learn the skills in tight quarters or challenging situations.

Time is important. Don't let it be your enemy. We're mostly recreational boaters here, retired pros or not. Waiting for conditions to improve is usually just a matter of patience.

We saw a perfect example of failure to exercise patience last week. It happened at James Island Marine Park in the San Juans. For those not familiar with the dock a couple of pics attached.

We were sided tied bow out on the outer end. Inshore of us was what looked to be a Monk 36, or something quite similar, side tied bow in clear at the inshore end of the dock. Both tied on the side with the pilings. Watching him maneuver I'm saying a single with no thruster. The tide was running strong that morning pinning our boat and theirs against the dock. I don't know how fast, no way to measure it, I'm guessing 2+ knots, likely more. In other words a very challenging situation for the Monk.

We both started preparing to get underway about the same time, him a few minutes ahead of us. And here's where is lack of patience bit him in the backside. He chose not to wait for us to move and tried to depart. That was his first error in judgement.

His second was to attempt to depart going forward. This meant trying to spring the bow out without damaging the swim step and RIB mounted on the swim step. And pull that off in very close quarters. He hooked the bow of his RIB on the pilings and ripped it loose. I don't know what failed, attachment on the RIB or mount on the swim step, but now it's hanging in the water. And to make matters worse the snagging of the rib swung his bow towards the foot ramp overpass. He did mange to avoid the bow going under the overpass but still insisted on moving forward rather than backing, now his stern and nearly his fly bridge are under the overpass before he fully recovers and maneuvers away.

Had he simply given us a few minutes more time to depart he could have walked his boat to the outer end of the dock then from there easily backed out. That in my opinion is fact.

After the incident armchair analysis notes had he used the 128' dock with our 45' on the offshore end and his 36' on the inshore end leaving something on the order of 40+ ft between us he could have used a spring line to get the stern out then back with enthusiasm ti get clear of us. A dicey choice of course but better than trying to depart bow first and having to turn 180 degrees in tight quarters with current against him.

Back to part of the thread drift, thrusters. Would a thruster have helped? Maybe. Maybe not. They are too likely to trip out when worked hard.

I will give he and his crew credit for how they handled the situation. No screaming and yelling. A simple loud call out from the couple on the stern the RIB was about to hit, then trying to contain it. As soon as he was clear of the overpass and nearly lined up to leave his wife went to the flybirdge to complete the departure so he could head to the cockpit and assist with securing the RIB.
 

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Once I knew folks off our bow we’re awake spoke with them and offered to help them off. That was successful with me pushing them off and a spring. They are a true double ender so could aim them in the right direction to start.
Then with using thrusters and helm got off. Yaaa
 
Once I knew folks off our bow we’re awake spoke with them and offered to help them off. That was successful with me pushing them off and a spring. They are a true double ender so could aim them in the right direction to start.
Then with using thrusters and helm got off. Yaaa
I realize after the fact I could have and should have walked back to them and said we'd be underway in less than 10 minutes. Maybe they would have waited unitl we departed.
 
Once I knew folks off our bow we’re awake spoke with them and offered to help them off. That was successful with me pushing them off and a spring. They are a true double ender so could aim them in the right direction to start.
Then with using thrusters and helm got off. Yaaa

That was the right answer to your situation. Any departure with 3kts of current and 3’ of clearance on each end would involve more risk than necessary. Moving one of the other boats (or asking for them to be moved) or waiting it out were both better options.

Glad it worked out.
 
Portage Bay,
James Island is a beautiful location! And the new dock is great . . . . but as stated, the current can be a real bugaboo there.

Similar situation for us. We were starboard side tie, bow in, closest to the ramp, wind was pushing us on dock. Current was pushing us off dock . . . I thought the wind was stronger . . . Oh, and there's that rock off the port bow about 50' or so . . . . And it was 0400, pitch black, no moon, but we were departing to make the passage South with the current.
Boat behind us on the dock, and two boats on the other side of the dock as well. We eased off the dock, wife undid the bow line from the dock, went to the stern, undid the stern, but didn't have a chance to get on swimstep . . . . so she's on the dock, boat was off dock, swiveled to port, and got off the dock . . . . with wife still on dock . . . . Yeah, I'm going to stop right there,
 
slowgoesit, I too have been humbled at James Island. So far the only damage was to my ego.

Regarding your story I witnessed a similar situation at Coupeville in the darkness during a winter storm. We were approaching and saw a small sail boat circling off the end. Approach then head off. Rinse and repeat. We timed it right and got in OK. The mate jumped off to find out what had happened. They had been getting bashed on the windward side and tried to shift to the leeward side. He was left on the dock, she on the boat with no skills at handling the boat. Oops. The mate from my boat, a very patient man with a loud voice and a good boat handler and a good teacher talked her into the dock. It took several passes but eventually she made it in with no damage.
 
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