Insurance and Navigation Restrictions

GIECO dropped us this year and this required us to seek a new insurance company. All the quotes I received from our broker, Peter, has navigation restrictions, no boating above the 51 longitude line from October to May 15th.

I have never came across this in all my years of cruising the PNW. Why? Is this a new thing in the PNW. Don't know. I even had one company that would require ASD to be on the hard from October 1st until May 1st. Really? Needles to say, they did not get my money.

My required navigation is pretty easy to understand. Coast of Oregon, Washington, to include the Columbia River, B.C. Canada and All of SE Alaska to Cape Spencer to Skagway.

Next year I will be more vigilant when dealing with these companies and their requirements.

Any similar TF folks who run the PNW run into this issue?

Navigation limits are pretty common, but they also vary quite a bit. What you describe is more restrictive than most I have seen.

Maybe they are worried that you will pull a Titanic???

Did you call the insurance companies to speak to someone about it?

I've had several changes to my Navigation limits over the years and it's never been a problem or an increase in premium. Looked at doing the Downeast Loop (out the St Lawrence, around Nova Scotia, and back down the East coast to NYC) and asked my agent. No problem and no increase in premium.

The other part that surprises me, is that with your previous experience with going to Alaska each year, I would have thought most companies wouldn't of had a problem with it. Would have thought something new would have been an issue.

Ted

I too have had Nav limits and when I wanted to exceed them, usually it was another percent or two added to the deductible, nothing added to the premium.

Was far less a big deal than i thought.

Can't say for another insurance company though.....

As others have said, depending on the insurance company it's often not a big deal to get the limits extended, especially with a long history of boating experience.

You are paying your agent to handle this kind of thing. Make the agent earn their % and go to work for you with the company. As a rule insurance companies don’t like to deal directly with the assured and finding the right person to talk to can be difficult. But it shouldn’t be for your agent

Rick

Looking forward to hearing the explanation from Peter.

They've been pulling silly s4it like that in Oz for a while
Usually cyclone related

Stupid part about it is that we have been cruising in the cyclone zone in mostly calm conditions with very few boats - living the dream

But if you are south below the line you avoid cyclones but get smashed with summer storms often several times a week, east coast lows and Southerly Busters.

They just want you out of AK and northern BC in the winter. The dates and lat lines vary a little but I think the limitation is pretty common. Some of the carriers will expand the geography for a higher premium.

We had some version of that limitation on our last couple of policies but it wasn’t a problem for us because I head south before winter anyway.

At least for US east coast and Caribbean things have changed as severity and expansion the hurricane season has increased. Multiple vendors dropped out of the market. Those that remain are significantly more restrictive. When shopping have done our own search and simultaneously used a broker. Market is fairly consistent. Premium much higher if in the zone during hurricane season. Zone has moved a bit higher north (usually above Hatteras) . Season 1june to sometime in November (date varies). What’s new to me is crew restrictions. If not immediately coastal no single handing without big bump in premium. If offshore number of crew stipulated and some vendors require they vet before transit. Fortunately this doesn’t impact us as our program has changed. But wonder if you could get insurance for a Bermuda one two now.
Premiums increase after every bad storm season and don’t return to baseline. Hard to get insurance for stuff older than 30yrs. Increase in them asking for surveys.

May 15 is a month or more too late. Some of the best cruising in AK is during the mid Spring Pacific lull. Petersburg has their Norwegian fest in mid May which requires an early May departure from the Seattle area.

But, Peter can shed some light on the subject for ASD’s particular case.

ASD, My broker put me with Red Shield. They're an underwriter specializing in the PNW. I do have geographic and seasonal limits but I have found that my broker can get the geographic limits adjusted when I need them. I don't know about seasonal. With your extensive experience I would expect Red Shield would do the same for you.

I can think of another option that might be worth looking into. An Alaska insurance brokerage. Somebody has to write policies for the boats up there.

Calling Geico is a waste of time, as neither their agents nor their underwriters know anything about boats. I spent a month, two surveys a lot of money and effort (DIY) to get my insurance renewed.

For 40 years I have had restrictions on my insurance policy. Every time I have asked to go beyond the restrictions it has been granted. This includes going from Seattle to LA and going to Alaska. While insurance companies like Red Shield retain the right to say no, I have never found them to reject a reasonable request. Now if you ask to go to LA in December I bet they would say no.

I once asked Red Shield if I could extend my off shore limit from 25 miles to 30 miles to avoid crab traps and they granted it instantly.

tiltrider1 said:

I once asked Red Shield if I could extend my off shore limit from 25 miles to 30 miles to avoid crab traps and they granted it instantly.

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We've had Red Shield for a couple of years now, and they do seem amenable to modifications and extensions.

Like almost all insurance policy terms they are based on calculated risks, statistical averages and those gurus who work in Risk Management. Averaging formulas never work with exceptions or experienced mariners no matter how long they’ve been cruising the same waters and coasts. These calculations focus more on the inexperienced and less experienced since statistically there are more of them than highly skilled sailors. And lately the neophyte segment is carrying more hull value than the whiskered element. Go figure but there is solid dollars and cents logic to most of these limitations.

What’s is funny is how archaic some of these navigation rules that are still in place are. They often date back centuries. Take the ‘ Graveyard of the Atlantic ‘ Cape Hatteras and the ‘ outer banks ‘.The mariner’s sayings like ‘ If the Bermudas let you pass, watch out for Hatteras ‘. True enough in the age of sail when coastal trading was heavy from North to South to North, reliable soundings and reliable coastal navigation aids were rare so bad weather and moving shoals left the bottom littered along with Nazi sub targets . Needless to say many of the nav limits are often based on old shipping and Lloyds loss information from the bygone days. Years ago it was not uncommon for old time New England yachtsmen to almost automatically have coverage down the coast, to the Abacos & Exumas and often Bermuda, of course they didn’t deal with GEICO, BoatsUS or Allstate etc.etc.. It’s the job of a good producer/agent/broker to put a face and credentials on the customer/assured so the company can tweak coverages where warranted.

Rick

Portage_Bay said:

ASD, My broker put me with Red Shield. They're an underwriter specializing in the PNW. I do have geographic and seasonal limits but I have found that my broker can get the geographic limits adjusted when I need them. I don't know about seasonal. With your extensive experience I would expect Red Shield would do the same for you.

I can think of another option that might be worth looking into. An Alaska insurance brokerage. Somebody has to write policies for the boats up there.

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Tried Redshield. Lol What a joke. They wanted me on the hard. Coverage 25 miles from mouth of Columbia. Portland is 100 miles. They don't want my money.

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

Tried Redshield. Lol What a joke. They wanted me on the hard. Coverage 25 miles from mouth of Columbia. Portland is 100 miles. They don't want my money.

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Hope they don't pull the same crap on me at renewal. If so I'll be shopping.

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

Tried Redshield. Lol What a joke. They wanted me on the hard. Coverage 25 miles from mouth of Columbia. Portland is 100 miles. They don't want my money.

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Well that sucks. I'm with Portage Bay on this one, hoping they don't pull the same crap with us at renewal.

I am over my angst about these insurance issues these days. Insurance no longer works for me, and yes, I have formerly been a customer of Peter's office.

Navigational restrictions are more prevalent, flexibility with them is waning, premiums have increased substantially, and requirements for being underwritten in the way of experience, size changes, and surveys have become more ominous and expensive.

Okay, given the deterioration in claims history due to increasingly violent weather, and increasingly incompetent boat owners, I do not take the view that the underwriters are the bad guys. It just is what it is. That makes it a bad deal for what I consider to be my own personal risk. I just have chosen not to buy insurance for my own risk and instead have chosen to underwrite myself.
Of course, I am required to carry liability, but I consider the premiums I am quoted for liability to be a very good value. Fairly priced and therefore an almost unquantifiable risk I would not take on myself, even if I were not required to have it.

Here is a great example. I have a boat in the Sea of Cortez. My nav restrictions said that I needed to be north of 25 latitude by June 1 and remain there until November 1. I asked for a variance to be at 24.16 during that period. The 5500-dollar premium within nav limits was already a bad deal but to stay zero point eight four degrees south of an arbitrary line would have cost me 9500 dollars.
No thanks. Liability only in that jurisdiction cost me all of $800 from Chubb which I acquired without an agent directly in five minutes.
No brainer.

YMMV

Portage_Bay said:

I can think of another option that might be worth looking into. An Alaska insurance brokerage. Somebody has to write policies for the boats up there.

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I live in Juneau and have insurance through a broker in Seattle. Our only local insurance broker (the only full service insurance broker in Southeast Alaska) wasn’t much help. Maybe there’s someone in Anchorage, I don’t know.

Our insurance is with Chubb, and they are fine with the boat being in Alaska in the winter. ?

klee wyck said:

I am over my angst about these insurance issues these days. Insurance no longer works for me, and yes, I have formerly been a customer of Peter's office.



Navigational restrictions are more prevalent, flexibility with them is waning, premiums have increased substantially, and requirements for being underwritten in the way of experience, size changes, and surveys have become more ominous and expensive.



Okay, given the deterioration in claims history due to increasingly violent weather, and increasingly incompetent boat owners, I do not take the view that the underwriters are the bad guys. It just is what it is. That makes it a bad deal for what I consider to be my own personal risk. I just have chosen not to buy insurance for my own risk and instead have chosen to underwrite myself.

Of course, I am required to carry liability, but I consider the premiums I am quoted for liability to be a very good value. Fairly priced and therefore an almost unquantifiable risk I would not take on myself, even if I were not required to have it.



Here is a great example. I have a boat in the Sea of Cortez. My nav restrictions said that I needed to be north of 25 latitude by June 1 and remain there until November 1. I asked for a variance to be at 24.16 during that period. The 5500-dollar premium within nav limits was already a bad deal but to stay zero point eight four degrees south of an arbitrary line would have cost me 9500 dollars.

No thanks. Liability only in that jurisdiction cost me all of $800 from Chubb which I acquired without an agent directly in five minutes.

No brainer.



YMMV

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I have been thinking the same for next year.

SeaDogAK said:

I live in Juneau and have insurance through a broker in Seattle. Our only local insurance broker (the only full service insurance broker in Southeast Alaska) wasn’t much help. Maybe there’s someone in Anchorage, I don’t know.



Our insurance is with Chubb, and they are fine with the boat being in Alaska in the winter. [emoji2]

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I will give them a call in the fall.

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

I will give them a call in the fall.

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I can tell you Chubb is on the list of real marine underwriters from commercial to pleasure. They’ve been in the business a looong time, serious company who knows marine. I’d be lying to you if I told they will try to compete with the cheap, write anything no survey players who are everywhere today but maybe gone tomorrow.

Rick

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

Tried Redshield. Lol What a joke. They wanted me on the hard. Coverage 25 miles from mouth of Columbia. Portland is 100 miles. They don't want my money.

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Are you sure you're reading the nav limits correctly? I'm thinking 25 miles from the mouth of the Colombia means 25 miles off shore. Not 25 miles upriver to Portland. My Red Sheild policy limits me to within 25 miles of shore.

The requirement to be on the hard Oct to May is baffling.

For what it’s worth, I have my Chubb policy through Boat Insurance Agency in Seattle.

I'm also with Chubb. Having a very good agent is also important. While the agency has been acquired or changed names twice, I still have the same woman who navigates and negotiates the insurance companies for me. Lot to be said for a great agent that represents you and your vessel well.

Finally, I consider insurance for the big claim only. In 39 years of commercial and recreational boating, I've never filed a claim (touch wood) or been sighted by the USCG. In this day and age of every business knowing everything about you, I've got to believe no claims is a factor.

Ted

Ted I’ve always said you really don’t know your insurance company or policy until you need to file a claim. Hoping you’ll never have to but the real marine underwriters have a real claims department that operates in-house but completely separate from underwriting. There should be no actual or perceived conflict of interest. These people know marine, they hire marine professionals and will enlist services of surveyors, salvors you name it to indemnify you. These old style companies also work closely with their producers or agents as they usually have a history with each other. That means when an agent of long standing calls in a favor or lets the company know ‘ this guy is a real sailor good risk ‘ they’ll listen. They can be stiff but fair and though they have legal people they hate to go to court.

Rick

garbler said:

Ted I’ve always said you really don’t know your insurance company or policy until you need to file a claim. Hoping you’ll never have to but the real marine underwriters have a real claims department that operates in-house but completely separate from underwriting. There should be no actual or perceived conflict of interest. These people know marine, they hire marine professionals and will enlist services of surveyors, salvors you name it to indemnify you. These old style companies also work closely with their producers or agents as they usually have a history with each other. That means when an agent of long standing calls in a favor or lets the company know ‘ this guy is a real sailor good risk ‘ they’ll listen. They can be stiff but fair and though they have legal people they hate to go to court.

Rick

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What companies meet this description?