Anchor windlass issue - sparks from chain

Maxwell 3500HWC has ran like a champ for the 7 years we've been out here
And still is
But around Jan it started giving signs that something wasn't quite the same

Slightly different noise - or is it?
Seemed to lack power - at times
Seemed to change speed - at times
And sometimes I could swear I could hear a crackle with a whiff of ozone

Unbolted it, checked terminals, checked wiring, checked oil, all appeared fine
All terminals tight and liberal covering of liquid PVC from last time I serviced it.
Checked down below and found the breaker appearing to be partially tripped which is odd. I thought they were either off or on, but nothing else was obvious, all looked pristine.

Read manual and it mentioned brush replacement - but no instructions
Miles from anywhere so continue and observe.

Today I was pulling the anchor up while still dark

Wet chain and as it touched the chainwheel and as it went over the roller this time there were occasional sparks coming from the chain.
Not often but definitely happening.

Again, it all came up and now we are back in civilisation doing a reprov.

I'll unbolt it all ready to take the motor to an Auto Electrician on Monday, but hoping to go in sounding like I have an idea.

I am thinking if brushes are worn, so poor connection to the commutator
Could the power arc to the metal case of the motor >> metal case of gearbox >> shaft, chainwheel and into the chain?

Thoughts?

That’s a tough one. If brushes were worn down to nothing it wouldn’t produce power right? The breaker is definitely trying to tell you something. It feels like a bad ground. Possible rusting under the liquid pvc?

Brushes would be my first choice. They may just be sticking in the holder. Could also have a problem where the brushes touch the armature. Generally not a good idea to continue with a brushed motor when you're experiencing brush relaxed problem, especially arcing.

Ted

Yep. brushes would be my first diagnosis from the symptoms,too. Have you smacked the motor housing with something heavy to see if the jarring frees the brushes and changes the motor operation?

Simi 60 said:

I am thinking if brushes are worn, so poor connection to the commutator
Could the power arc to the metal case of the motor >> metal case of gearbox >> shaft, chainwheel and into the chain?

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Should be measurable with a meter.

Personally I think you have a short in the motor.

Simi
Have you serviced per the Maxwell book. I ask because 4 years ago I had a Maxwell issue. Pulled the book out and noted several things including motor servicing I had been derelict in.

Then 2 years ago my 17 year old motor went bad. Replaced with new and rebuilt the old. We also carry a spare solenoid.

I sounds like you have a bad DC negative connection, and some of the current is finding it's way back through the chainwheel and chain. If any of that current is flowing from chain to hull through the water, you could be subject to rapid electrolysis. So I would get it sorted right away.


If you have a clamp-on current meter, you could measure the current in the positive and negative cables right at the windless. They should be the same when the windless is operating. I suspect you will find there is less current in the negative wire because it's running back through the boat rather than 100% through the cable.

I think most of your symptoms could be explained by bad brushes. The sparking could be due to the current being interrupted and jumping to the case and then to ground through the chain. And many breakers trip to a middle position between on and off.

I once had bad brushes on my windless replaced by an auto electric shop since the manufacturer was bought out and parts through them were not available. They filed down some similar brushes to fit and it worked fine.

David

Brushes, not a big deal.

pete

Ok, sounds like I am on the right path.

The good thing about the HWC is that the motor and wiring is totally protected from the elements so I seriously doubt it's corrosion of any sort.

The bad thing about the HWC is that the motor and wiring are inaccessible for testing if wanting to put any load on it

DavidM said:

.

I once had bad brushes on my windless replaced by an auto electric shop since the manufacturer was bought out and parts through them were not available. They filed down some similar brushes to fit and it worked fine.

David

Click to expand...

Great and what I was hopeing.
Genuines will be a week away even if they are available.

sunchaser said:

Simi
Have you serviced per the Maxwell book. I ask because 4 years ago I had a Maxwell issue. Pulled the book out and noted several things including motor servicing I had been derelict in.

Then 2 years ago my 17 year old motor went bad. Replaced with new and rebuilt the old. We also carry a spare solenoid.

Click to expand...

Motor servicing is what I have missed
Everything else gets done

twistedtree said:

I sounds like you have a bad DC negative connection, and some of the current is finding it's way back through the chainwheel and chain. If any of that current is flowing from chain to hull through the water, you could be subject to rapid electrolysis. So I would get it sorted right away.


If you have a clamp-on current meter, you could measure the current in the positive and negative cables right at the windless. They should be the same when the windless is operating. I suspect you will find there is less current in the negative wire because it's running back through the boat rather than 100% through the cable.

Click to expand...

I agree with this. I don't think it's the brushes causing the arcing on the chain.

Mischief Managed said:

I agree with this. I don't think it's the brushes causing the arcing on the chain.

Click to expand...

No, but brushes and brush dust might be shorting to the motor frame. Just a guess. I agree that first step is to pull the motor, clean out all the carbon dust, inspect and presumably replace the brushes, and check for any shorts to the motor case. Also a current clamp meter on the positive and negative cables while operating the windless should show any imbalance in current, which would indicate it's finding another path.

Simi 60 said:

Motor servicing is what I have missed
Everything else gets done

Click to expand...

Windlass motors often get overlooked. They indeed get gummed up as TT has stated but worse yet on the Maxwells they are buried in the anchor locker where it is damp from latent salt water. When ours bit the dust we were quite fortunately at the dock cleaning and marking the chain.

A new motor was available nearby (a miracle) and the old one sent in for rebuild. Yup, dust and corrosion did it in. Now we have a spare.

sunchaser said:

Windlass motors often get overlooked. They indeed get gummed up as TT has stated but worse yet on the Maxwells they are buried in the anchor locker where it is damp from latent salt water. When ours bit the dust we were quite fortunately at the dock cleaning and marking the chain.

A new motor was available nearby (a miracle) and the old one sent in for rebuild. Yup, dust and corrosion did it in. Now we have a spare.

Click to expand...

Except it's a HWC and is above deck
And the motor never sees any water due to the enclosed casing.
It also prohibits access to wiring unless unbolted and flipped on its side

Windlass is off, motor is out and I have found the culprit.
No "pro" needed yet.
Definite signs of arcing and a broken bit of metal wire that's been getting thrown around inside.

Brushes still look to have a tonne of life left in them but as seen in pic, wire has been arking

More pics of stray metal

One of the terminals that was covered in red PVC liquid also has signs of bad connection.

Got a bit more copper wire out, looks like broken windings.
Thinking as it's still working I'll clean it up and reassemble.
Now the dust and loose bits are out hopefully the shorting will be stopped.

Over $1000 for a new motor in Oz
And wouldn't be able to get it rewound for a week or two at least.

Simi 60 said:

Got a bit more copper wire out, looks like broken windings.
Thinking as it's still working I'll clean it up and reassemble.
Now the dust and loose bits are out hopefully the shorting will be stopped.

Over $1000 for a new motor in Oz
And wouldn't be able to get it rewound for a week or two at least.

Click to expand...

BTW - I recently had motor on my ancient Ideal windlass rewound at an auto electric shop. There was some sort of relay that needed to be replaced due to idiots who removed the motor - they didn't use two wrenches to loosen the terminal posts and spun the studs. It was more expensive to rewind than expected - around $300 in St Pete FL.

Peter

mvweebles said:

BTW - I recently had motor on my ancient Ideal windlass rewound at an auto electric shop. There was some sort of relay that needed to be replaced due to idiots who removed the motor - they didn't use two wrenches to loosen the terminal posts and spun the studs. It was more expensive to rewind than expected - around $300 in St Pete FL.

Peter

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When this windlass was first installed, same thing with the terminal posts.
Had one fall out in our first cruise

Fortunately, we were within tender range to a fast ferry back to the mainland and they then delivered it to an Auto electrician to re- solder the post and back to us a couple of days later for $100.

Rewinding here will be more like $500 so says today's auto electrician, but have to go several hundred miles south and back, freight will make almost it as much as a new one.

New one from the US including freight will likely cost less than one bought here.
Get the old one re wound as a spare when back down south when next on the hard

I’m glad this winch issue has been identified and hopefully sorted asap.

We recently had issues retrieving our ground tackle due to a slowing anchor winch, and certainly agree with the comments winch maintenance is often pushed to the background, it certainly was in our case.
We have a 30 year old Muir Cheetah, horizontal shaft, but realised after a full strip down, wind driven salt spray had worked its way through the tiny open gap where the winch housing sits on the pulpit platform and corroded the brackets that hold the brushes, seizing three of the four brushes, preventing connection to the commutator, and surface corrosion around the windings.
Poor connectivity from battery leads at the solenoids, creating voltage drop, was also cited as a potential cause of normal brush/commutator connection.

All cleaned up and fully functioning again, but sealed the winch housing to the deck to prevent future water ingress, and made sure all lead terminals are clean and tightly connected.

Pulled the trigger on a new motor, "should" be here in a couple of days.
Old one which still works as a spare.

Put it down as a consumable
We've anchored with it for about 2500 days so about $0.50c/ day
I'm good with that considering the alternative.

Simi
Your travels, experience, capabilities and ingenuity are always appreciated. As I recall Maxwell is an Aussie company. No new motor to be found down your way?

Simi 60 said:

Pulled the trigger on a new motor, "should" be here in a couple of days.
Old one which still works as a spare.

Put it down as a consumable
We've anchored with it for about 2500 days so about $0.50c/ day
I'm good with that considering the alternative.

Click to expand...

At some point will you have the old motor rewound or otherwise fixed? It sure would be good to know where all that shrapnel came from.

sunchaser said:

Simi
Your travels, experience, capabilities and ingenuity are always appreciated. As I recall Maxwell is an Aussie company. No new motor to be found down your way?

Click to expand...

Kiwi, but close.

twistedtree said:

Kiwi, but close.

Click to expand...

And then the fight started!

twistedtree said:

At some point will you have the old motor rewound or otherwise fixed? It sure would be good to know where all that shrapnel came from.

Click to expand...

I may well do depending on cost as a % of new.


If I shine a torch up through the base and rotate the motor I can see a gap in the windings in two places.

sunchaser said:

Simi
Your travels, experience, capabilities and ingenuity are always appreciated. As I recall Maxwell is an Aussie company. No new motor to be found down your way?

Click to expand...

Thanks

And there are, but going on online pricing I could actually get one on eBay from the US at a cheaper price but, it'd likely take weeks.

I ended up calling someone I know still in the game on the offchance they had an account with Vetus/Maxwell in Oz, which they did, and the price came back only a few $$ more.
But, here in a few days.