Anyone here understand how the Victron Argofet works?

Specifically, the "energize" pin. I've read the manual, and it is devoid of useful information, like how much input current and what current might be expected at the FET input with "energize" energized.

Many questions about this asked on the Victron Community forum, and never answered.

Source for this info is ca.Binnacle.com or Victron. it is 12v + sent from ignition on/run.

Alternator energize input: Some alternators need DC voltage on the B+ output to start charging. Obviously, DC will be present when the alternator is directly connected to a battery. Inserting a Diode or FET Splitter will however prevent any return voltage/current from the batteries to the B+, and the alternator will not start.

The new Argofet isolators have a special current limited energize input that will power the B+ when the engine run/stop switch is closed.

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Link HERE

DDW said:

Specifically, the "energize" pin. I've read the manual, and it is devoid of useful information, like how much input current and what current might be expected at the FET input with "energize" energized.

Many questions about this asked on the Victron Community forum, and never answered.

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Well I have one and looked and you are right. It says nothing about capacity etc it can handle. I have put 180a through mine if that helps. My info sheet gives an example of 100a and a loss of 0.1V

I would contact Victron directly

Here's my read between the lines...


The Energize input enables some level of current backflow from the batteries to the alternator B+ terminal. It's current limited, so won't blow things up if there is a short, but enough current to power a voltage regulator built into the alternator.They don't say what this current limit is, but I'd guess something in the 10A range. The load on the Energize input should be negligible for any Ignition circuit.


As for current ratings for the Alternator output, that's in the datasheet and reflected in the model number, with 100A and 200A models offered.


Does that help, and if not, what's the concern? Are you trying to use it in some unique way?

My former boat had two Victron Aergofet to charge the house battery from the starting battery when voltage rose. Bow thrusters/windlass battery and stern thruster battery. Learned negative wires to Argo get needed 2 amp fuses in addition to positive fuses .

Argofet enabled the manufactured to use charging wire sizes rather than high current wires from midship batteries.

Netherlands engineer said info is in their blog but I never found it.

The energize pin just allows a regulator or charger to see voltage at the input stud so it can boot up. It is not for 24/7 use…

twistedtree said:

Here's my read between the lines...


The Energize input enables some level of current backflow from the batteries to the alternator B+ terminal. It's current limited, so won't blow things up if there is a short, but enough current to power a voltage regulator built into the alternator.They don't say what this current limit is, but I'd guess something in the 10A range. The load on the Energize input should be negligible for any Ignition circuit.


As for current ratings for the Alternator output, that's in the datasheet and reflected in the model number, with 100A and 200A models offered.


Does that help, and if not, what's the concern? Are you trying to use it in some unique way?

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The current rating spec for forward current through it are sufficient. The current, voltage, characteristic, output, and every other thing about the Energize line is non-existent in their documentation. It is a poor showing even by Victron standards.

I am powering the Wakespeed regulator from the B+ terminal, it will need up to about 10A to power up properly and feed the field. On the Victron forum this question, and the question about current bleeding between outputs and input have been asked many times and never answered. In those discussions a couple of people have had 20A fuses in the Energize line blowing. The only answer from Victron is 'that shouldn't happen, but maybe it could'.

I guess I will be reverse engineering this thing to try to find the answers.

DDW said:

The current rating spec for forward current through it are sufficient. The current, voltage, characteristic, output, and every other thing about the Energize line is non-existent in their documentation. It is a poor showing even by Victron standards.

I am powering the Wakespeed regulator from the B+ terminal, it will need up to about 10A to power up properly and feed the field. On the Victron forum this question, and the question about current bleeding between outputs and input have been asked many times and never answered. In those discussions a couple of people have had 20A fuses in the Energize line blowing. The only answer from Victron is 'that shouldn't happen, but maybe it could'.

I guess I will be reverse engineering this thing to try to find the answers.

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What exactly are you trying to do with the energize terminal? The purpose of “energize “ is not to power other devices. It is to allow a charge source such as an alt to see a battery voltage so it can boot. The Argo FET will work with Victron mppt controllers, even without energize, but may not work with other Mppt brands..

DDW said:

The current rating spec for forward current through it are sufficient. The current, voltage, characteristic, output, and every other thing about the Energize line is non-existent in their documentation. It is a poor showing even by Victron standards.



I am powering the Wakespeed regulator from the B+ terminal, it will need up to about 10A to power up properly and feed the field. On the Victron forum this question, and the question about current bleeding between outputs and input have been asked many times and never answered. In those discussions a couple of people have had 20A fuses in the Energize line blowing. The only answer from Victron is 'that shouldn't happen, but maybe it could'.



I guess I will be reverse engineering this thing to try to find the answers.

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Unfortunately this is characteristic of Victron. The good side is that they offer up a lot more technical detail than most companies. But it’s hit or miss, as this example shows, and what information does exist is scattered all over the place in blogs, discus, community forum, Victron professional, etc, etc. It’s a treasure hunt, at best, and crap strewn across the floor at worst. And even more frustrating when there is no technical support, just “contact your dealer”. Do you really think Fisheries or Defender or Amazon would be able to answer the question?

@DDW:
R.C. is correct (emphasis added):

What exactly are you trying to do with the energize terminal? The purpose of “energize “ is not to power other devices. It is to allow a charge source such as an alt to see a battery voltage so it can boot.

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Do not use this port to power the WS500-that is not why it is provided. Power the WS500 as shown in their Quick Start Guide and other documentation. B+ (wire #6) from alternator output B+; B- (wire #5) from a convenient and solid B-. I usually use the shunt or the alternator B-.

I have wired the WS500 exactly as shown in their documentation: Red power wire to the B+ on the alternator. If the Argofet is working properly, this will see no power and no voltage with the engine off and the Energize pin open. Nothing will change when the engine is started unless there is sufficient residual flux in the field windings to begin charging, but this will bring the WS500 up in a rather unpredicable and disorderly fashion. This is precisely what the Energize terminal is intended to do - maybe. They don't say. Only that a "limited amount of current" is available at the input post. Why not spec it like real engineers and a real electronics product company?

There is no mention about how this current arrives at the B+ post. Does it come through the Energize input? That might explain the ability to blow a 20A fuse. Does the Energize input turn on the FETs to the ohmic operating condition, and allow current to leak from output to input? Which output? Why do I have to guess?

Once up and running, the B+ post has plenty of power supplied by the alternator to power the WS500. It is the startup sequence which is questionable. Yes, I can abandon the idea of using the mystery Energize terminal entirely, and run the power input for the WS500 to the engine start battery. Why even supply an Energize input then?

DDW:

Why even supply an Energize input then?

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As several have already stated, and quoted here from the techdoc:

Alternator energize input
Some alternators need DC voltage on the B+ output to start charging.
Obviously, DC will be present when the alternator is directly connected to
a battery. Inserting a Diode or FET splitter will however prevent any
return voltage/current from the batteries to the B+, and the alternator will
not start.
The new Argofet isolators have a special current limited energize input
that will power the B+ when the engine run/stop switch is closed.

Click to expand...

It is that simple: it is there to provide voltage not support a load.

But...the ArgoFET pre-dates the WS500 so it appears that the current provided is insufficient for the WS 500. So, to solve this problem, move the source for the #5 (B+ wire) to the output terminal of the ArgoFet which is hardwired to the battery B+. Problem solved. The WS500 will have all of the current it requires and you have the benefit of near 0VDC voltage drop across a battery isolator.

CharlieJ said:

DDW:


As several have already stated, and quoted here from the techdoc:


It is that simple: it is there to provide voltage not support a load.

But...the ArgoFET pre-dates the WS500 so it appears that the current provided is insufficient for the WS 500.

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The technical documentation is conspicuous by its absence. "Provide voltage but not supply a load" means what, specifically? Voltage that can support no load is useless for anything, and can't even be measured. "Appears the current provided is insufficient..." - how did you determine that? From the non-existent spec for current? Any external regulator would typically be wired the same, per the instructions, and many predate the Argofet by decades (Balmar 612 as an example).

I know their laziness is not your fault, but it is nevertheless inexcusable, as is their unwillingness or inability to answer what should be a simple question on the forum that they have chosen as their support means.

That's why I asked if anyone knew how it actually worked. I can read the spec as well or better than the next guy (I am an EE). The spec is an embarrassment. A real spec would have at least some details about the transfer characteristic, a current sink max on Energize input, a current limit spec on output -> input or energize -> input (it doesn't even say which), leakage current when off, etc. This "spec" has exactly two numbers, the forward voltage drop and rated current, for a 5 terminal device. A poor effort, even by Victron standards.

CharlieJ said:

@DDW:
R.C. is correct (emphasis added):


Do not use this port to power the WS500-that is not why it is provided. Power the WS500 as shown in their Quick Start Guide and other documentation. B+ (wire #6) from alternator output B+; B- (wire #5) from a convenient and solid B-. I usually use the shunt or the alternator B-.

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Right. And the WS500 has a dedicated Ignition input that turns it in and off.

@DDW:
You have made your point that the Victron documentation is poor. Got it.

"Appears the current provided is insufficient..." - how did you determine that?

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By interpreting your multiple posts.

and many predate the Argofet by decades (Balmar 612 as an example).

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Here are the instructions for the Balmar 614:

The RED Field Wire #2 in diagram at right is included in the four-wire Ford style plug and is factory installed on regulator packages designated with “H” at the end of the model number. The other end of the Power Wire is fitted with a ring terminal connector. In most applications, this wire can be connected directly to the alternator’s positive output post. When a diode-type battery isolator is used, the power and voltage sense (#9) wires must be connected to the battery side of the battery isolator. Power Wire is equipped with 10-amp ATC type fuse. The Power Wire must be fused to ensure against damage to the voltage regulator.

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You have been provided a solution that will cost you nothing to execute and provide you with a working system.

I'm using an Argofet for charging 3 different Battery groups with one Victron MPPT. The MPPT needs the Energize at night, otherwise it will switch off and wouldn't start again, because of the missing B+feeding. Had some issues due to blown fuses - started with 2 Amps, ended with 20 Amps. So far it seems to work since three months flawless. One additional issue is the wrong battery voltage (- 0.5 V) shown in the MPPT's data at night, but that doesn't matter, because at day, when the solar panels produce electricity, the MPPT feeds itself and the shown battery voltage is correct as is all the rest.

One has to connect one of the three (or two) Battery terminals with the Energize terminal and don't forget the fuse. That's all.

CharlieJ said:

@DDW:
You have been provided a solution that will cost you nothing to execute and provide you with a working system.

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Yeah, I provided myself with that solution back in post #11, before you mentioned it. It is currently wired just as the Quickstart guide and your post #10 suggests.

If would truly cost nothing, then no problem, but it will need to be rewired to bring power from the start battery, a bit of a PITA in this installation.

I'd asked the question if anyone here understood how this device works - particularly the Energize input - and I guess the answer is no. Although some have discovered the obvious work around. Gypsy Island's post #16 makes clear that the Energize input has issues not explained by Victron. He has plenty of company over on the Victron forum.

OK, I reverse engineered it. It is a pretty simple device. The mosfets behave like N channel devices with gate tied to the drain. It begins conducting at a low voltage (<1V) and the outputs follow the input. There are two, each feeding an output.

The Energize input appears to be just a diode between pin and the Input post, forward towards Input. Any voltage applied to Energize appears on the Input post with a ~ 0.5V drop. I only tested it up to 2A, the forward resistance appears to be very low. According to the spec asking for a 6A fuse, I guess it is safe up to that current. I didn't want to burn up my unit so I didn't test the limits. A consequence of these two things means that any current applied to the Energize pin flows directly through to the Input post and then to both Output posts as well as.

You can see the problem here: If I have depleted my house battery to 8V, the turn the ignition key, this essentially shorts my start battery fed ignition circuit to 8.5V, and very large currents could flow. Maybe there is a current limit of some kind hiding in the Energize circuit, but by numerous users reporting blowing 20A fuses I'd guess not a meaningful one.

Some other observations:

There is reverse leakage of about 1.18 mA from a 13V output to a ground shorted Output post, and 1.23 mA to a ground shorted Input post. Since the both output posts would normally be somewhere in the 12V range, and the Input post looking into reverse biased diodes, this isn't of too much consequence.There is no leakage to a ground shorted Energize pin.

If the input is driven at 13V both outputs sit at 13V. If one is driven to say 12.5V and the other shorted to ground, no (or only the very small leakage current) flows from the driven output. This shows good isolation between outputs, discharge from one to the other is very small.

As others have reported, if one Output post is driven at 13V, the other output and the Input post will float at about 1.9V. However if either is grounded only the ~1.2 mA leakage current will flow so this is just due to the mosfet construction.

The blue LED turns on at about 9V on the Input, and therefore also at about 9.5V applied to the Energize pin.

The conclusion of this is that the Energize input should only be used for anything with great caution. Connecting as the Victron documentation suggests seems like a bad idea.

Wow, nice job sorting it out. It sounds like it would work fine if everything it working fine, but not so much of anything had failed, including one or more dead batteries. Sounds like a better way to use it would be to leave the alternator connected to one battery bank (pick whichever you prefer), then use the Argofet to divert charger to other banks, just the way you would use a VSR.

https://www.watersportforum.eu/portal.php?sid=94672d81a7b686a77329861a3bec0f94

You can ask your question on this forum, you may get the desired answer.
Here are a few specialists who probably have the answer to your question.

Someone came up with a post on the Victron forum saying that there is a 10A "electronic fuse" in the Energize, which is otherwise a diode to the input post. They probably mean a self repairing polyfuse, but don't say.

In routine use, the engine start battery feeding the key switch will be at 12.8V or higher, and the house battery on one of the outputs will be at 11V at the beginning of a charge cycle. You might expect currents up to 100A or whatever it takes to pull the key switch circuit and start battery down to 11V, routinely, every time the key is turned on. There is some talk by Victron about the time limited nature, but on an ordinary setup like mine, turn on the switch, wait for lift pump fuel pressure (30 seconds), start the engine, wait for the Wakespeed regulator startup delay (minimum setting is 15 seconds before start of ramp), then finally you drive the B+ post above the Energize input voltage. So the Energize input routinely has a problem, if used. There is no reason they could not have put a true current limiting circuit in there, might have cost an extra dollar. There is plenty of heat sink to handle the power.

I will install it not using the Energize input at all, run wires to power the regulator from the start battery rather than the alternator post. Then there has to be a means to move that to the house battery in the case of a truly dead start battery - but that isn't a routine need.

All I can say is that my Victron FET has been between my my house + all charging sources and my start battery + windlass circuit for 13 years.

It has worked fine to allow current/charge from the house and charge sources into the start+windlass circuit but not the other way. Just the way they said it would.

I am just a glorified knuckle dragger and that is fine with me.

The FET part works as advertised. The Energize, maybe not.

twistedtree said:

Unfortunately this is characteristic of Victron. And even more frustrating when there is no technical support, just “contact your dealer”. Do you really think Fisheries or Defender or Amazon would be able to answer the question?

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Then instead of going for the lowest of the lowest price, you buy at Peter Kennedy. PKYS.com. always got good explanations,

and an Argo Fet is real basic....
if you look to the manual which is at victronenegry.com it shows on a nice drawing how to connect the ArgoFet

12/24 Volt auto ranging
The Argofet will automatically adjust to a 12V or 24V system.
Alternator energize input
Some alternators need DC voltage on the B+ output to start charging.
Obviously, DC will be present when the alternator is directly connected to
a battery. Inserting a Diode or FET splitter will however prevent any
return voltage/current from the batteries to the B+, and the alternator will
not start.
The new Argofet isolators have a special current limited energize input
that will power the B+ when the engine run/stop switch is closed.
Installation (see figure below)
1. Always disconnect the battery minus cables before making
alterations to the electrical system.
2. Connect the positive output of the supplying source (alternator) to
the input of the battery isolator.
3. Connect the positive connection of the battery sets to output 1, 2 and
(optional) 3 respectively.
4. Connect the ‘Energize’ blade terminal to the engine run/stop switch
(optional). Minimum cable cross section: 2,5 mm².
5. Connect the ‘Ground’ blade terminal to the common negative bus
bar. Minimum cable cross section: 2,5 mm².
6. Connect the negative poles of the battery sets to the common
negative bus bar.
The blue LED will light up when voltage is present on the input of the
Argofet.

dutch-barge said:

Then instead of going for the lowest of the lowest price, you buy at Peter Kennedy. PKYS.com. always got good explanations

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It's not about the lowest of the lowest price. Fisheries certainly isn't the lowest, and Amazon typically isn't either. Fisheries is a 5 minute drive for me vs shipping across the country for PKYS. Convenience matters too.


It's about getting prompt, knowledgeable and accurate support, and very few dealers can do that for anything other than the simplest questions. I shouldn't have to research dealers so I can make a good guess about who can support Victron's product. I should be able to get the same support regardless of who I buy from, or what price I pay.



I don't know anyone who likes the Victron support model, and in fact it's a common complaint. I would humbly suggest that rather than arguing with their customers, Victron should listen to them.

dutch-barge said:

Then instead of going for the lowest of the lowest price, you buy at Peter Kennedy. PKYS.com. always got good explanations,

and an Argo Fet is real basic....
if you look to the manual which is at victronenegry.com it shows on a nice drawing how to connect the ArgoFet

Click to expand...

I guess you didn't read the thread?

PKYS is great, but I've quickly exhausted his knowledge in every attempt at reverse engineering a Victron product.

I see you can read the manual, so can I. You are right, it is a simple device until we get to the Energize input. That is pretty simple too as it turns out, just a diode to the Input post, maybe with a polysilicon fuse. It is just a bad design to do what they suggest with it. If is is connected to the Start circuit (NOT the run/stop switch!) it would probably behave something like what they intend: providing a bias voltage to the alternator on a very temporary basis, while the starter is cranking and the voltage is low. It might be nice if they said that in the manual. If it is hooked up as the manual suggests, it could cause serious problems - as scores of threads on their forum attest.

I like Victron stuff. I don't like their documentation.

Yesterday I sent an email to Victron asking if the ground wire was required if the energizer circuit was not being used. Ten minutes later I got an email telling me yes, I need to connect a ground wire. Later in the evening I got to wondering if there needs to be a keyed positive wire to the energizer pin. My Hinos have an oil pressure activated energizer circuit, so I have no need for any additional energizer. A few hours later I got the talk to an electrician, my installer (me), seller etc. I was disappointed to say the least.
They may have some great products, but I’m a do it myself kinda guy who tries very hard to do better work than the average tech. Sometimes I even get a complement from those that make their living at it.

No need for the Energizer is good. If you needed it I'd try hooking it to the starter circuit, live only when cranking.

The devices inside that isolate the two banks are power MOSFETs, in order to shut the gate off the substrate has to be grounded. So a good ground is definitely necessary, unlike the older style diode type isolators which have no such requirement. The ground has nothing to do with the Energize input or function.

That’s kinda what I gathered. I have four banks of batteries. 2 group 31 starting, recharged from the port alternator, 4 golf carts for the house/accessories charged by the starboard alternator, 1 group 27 starting battery for the generator recharging from the generator alternator. All of these are charged by a Promariner charger when AC is available. The fourth bank is for the inverter/charger and until now recharged only by AC from shore power or the generator. The purpose of the isolator is the take advantage of excess power available from the port alternator to charge the inverter bank. I had a generator problem last summer and the inverter batteries got pretty low,, up until then I hadn’t had a need. I learned rather quickly how nice it would be to have one more option.

Probably not the answer for most boat owners but an amp-clamp with digital storage and display would create a time lapse record of current on the line.