Designing a new Coastal Cruiser

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N4061

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Hello all, I realize I my request may be a little different but I thought this would be the best place to start. I have been boating all my life and have been lucky to own more boats than I should have in a life time. Out last two boats were new Nordhavn 40' (2005 and 2007) which we live aboard part time (M-F) in San Diego for five years. As much as we love our Nordhavn we are done going slow at least for awhile and have been searching for a quality built coastal cruiser we can use for weekend trips. An average trip for us is 60 miles of open ocean between ports. We spoke with Nordhavn about building something similiar to thier 35 Semi-displacement but they are not interested. I took a hard look at building a Downeast but determined I could not get what I wanted. I went back and looked at just about every single engine production built boat and still could not find the perfect boat. I came close but determined that what I want is just not available today. The builder of the boat that came close to meeting our requirements was interested in our vision of the perfect simple (attempt to minimize systems) coastal cruiser and we have begun discussions to design and build a high quality, strong, single engine diesel vessel in the 36' - 39' range usig an existing proven hull with a beam between 13' - 14'. Needless to say this an exciting and stressful journey but one that I feel I'm prepared to make.


Since opportunities like this only come around once in life I and for most of us we never have the opportunity to really provide input on the next boat builders market, I thought I would attempt to open up this project with others and ask them "what would your perfect coastal cruiser boat look like and how would it be equiped'? Another way to approach this could be to ask what are your top five "Must Have Items" on your perfect coastal cruiser. For those who would like to provide feedback I will consolidate all inputs and post a summary within 4-6 weeks. Thank you in advance for any inputs.

John
 
You wrote;

"looked at just about every single engine production built boat"

Only single engine?

If your other criteria for choice is so narrow it's no wonder you're having trouble finding what you want.
 
Yes I looked at Back Cove and Sabre. What I discovered was that I had to choose a boat configuration "as built" little to no opportunity to make significant changes. While Back Cove offered single engines, Sabre liked twins which ruled them out. Nice finishes on the Sabre.

The decision to go with one engine supports our desire to simplify the boat and keep it economical to operate. Our desired cruise speed is 9-12kts. Top end 14 knots. Matching the engine to the hull is being performed by the experts.
 
engine selection

No marketing guys involved. I'm fortunate to have access to one of the most respected engine manufacturing engineers who is assisting with matching the hull / engine to our desired operational speeds. We do not plan to follow most builders who install large engines so they can offer higher top end speeds (for marketing purposes) when they know most owners will end up cruising at speeds much lower than the diesel engine was designed and unknowingly be damaging thier engines. Again we plan to build the boat to match our planned usage, not to impress anyone. thanks for the comments.
 
N4061 said:
"what would your perfect coastal cruiser boat look like and how would it be equiped'? Another way to approach this could be to ask what are your top five "Must Have Items" on your perfect coastal cruiser.
Click to expand...

For a new build in that size range.

Picnic cruiser styling with removable divider between cockpit and lounge. Just enough exterior wood to accent the natural beauty of a flowing hull/cabin design(no sharp angles). A dink that doesn't look and store like an afterthought.

1. Single diesel with cruising generator and inverter
2. Minimal navigation electronics/toys
3. "Fishable" but not a fishing cockpit with door
4. Minimalist yet functional interior and galley
5. Maximum use of low voltage electronics/lighting
 
The Zimmerman 38 looks pretty cool and seems well thought out by some pretty bright guys . The Oct 2012 PMM has story on it. If you can top that one with your one of a kind ( and have resale) you have done a heck of a job. I'd guess your engine expert knows that today's common rail engines can be run slow providing marvelous fuel economy while still allowing the oomph for the times you care to go 20 knots.
 
You might talk to Don Ellis at Ellis Boat Works. They build semi custom boats. You choose one of their hulls and cabin tops. Then they will customize the interior for you. Their standard layouts are pretty good, but if you're willing to spend the money, they will build you the boat you want. Here is a link: Ellis Boat Company - Boat Building History & Heritage
 
I am in love with the concept of a transom that would have the ability to fold out and go flat , like on any pick up truck.

We prefer a grand sized aft cockpit and with the unit flat the view and water acces would be superb.

In addition as a boarding spot the rear access would be large enough to simply drive the dink up the ramp for inshore coastal passages.

With a bit of effort the dink could also be operated as get home emergency power , or perhaps as a stern thruster.

IF I were building another custom boat, the hull would be a single screw Atkin box keel , reverse deadrise style in the Seabright tradition,and the boat would be beachable .

Superbly seaworthy and very efficient , and if needed the boat can be transported flat on a big trailer , or loaded on a oversized shipping flat for ocean transport at the lowest cost.

Lift rings for crane loading would be operable weather the boat was aluminum or a cored foam build.

The engine would be fitted with a CPP ,

IF built light and slender 12K on 2GPH or 18 on just under 4GPH would not be hard.

Air cond , RV rooftop unit,

Heat Dickinson ,Antarctic

Refrigeration, Propane Servelle from Amish country.

Noisemaker varible speed Yannmar/Kubota hooked to 24V 300A bus alt with inverter for AC power ,AGM batts to make noisemaker use an hour every 5 days., when not air cond.

All aux power would be HYD from main or noisemaker , windlass bow thruster.

Cruise 2 , overnight 4 (2 in pilot house bunk) seat to feed 8.
 
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N4061 said:
Another way to approach this could be to ask what are your top five "Must Have Items" on your perfect coastal cruiser. For those who would like to provide feedback I will consolidate all inputs and post a summary within 4-6 weeks. Thank you in advance for any inputs.

John
Click to expand...


Reliable climate control for area that you are cruising
(you have to feel comfortable while on-board)

Docking capability's , using a powerful bow thruster, and possibly a stern thruster
(you don't want to look like a fool while docking)

Tender considerations and launch capability if you spend any time on the hook
(A good davit system is critical )

Interior layout to make the best use of space ,including the size % of the back deck,which is wasted space to most people unless they fish
(Your wife will make those decisions)

Keeping the whole boat low maintenance
(The Nordhavn you are used to is an example of a very low maintance boat )
 
FRED,

I enjoyed your romp through your dreamboat and agree that would be a really great boat. I'll bet you could even sell such a boat.

However "superbly seaworthy" it may be I'll bet big head seas would give it a pounding and ballast for that seaworthyness may put a dent in the efficiency.

But the overall idea is really exciting.
 
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The description of the boats you are looking sounds like an express model, some what light, semi displacement, shallow draft, and a narrow beam, with above hull speeds, low HP sized engine. But there in lays the rub? :confused: So I am still stuck on the hull, engine running gear and super structure. It would seem the boats structure would be light with 14 ft narrow beam so it’s semi displace and can go over hull speed, which may also require higher HP.

It sounds like you are looking for an older design hull as the hulls where longer and narrower. Since its one off unless you can find an existing mold would be a metal fabricated hull and to make light aluminum. The stern would round and/or like a commercial trawler so the following waves pass around and under the stern. May be a cross between Eric and FF boats comes to mind as an example with modifications. I would look at commercial mfg rather than pleasure. :hide:

There are really only two straight line engines, John Deer and Cummins. John Deer is the most popular as Deer has made special price adjustment for multiple engine. What ever the engine I would prefer it natural, with minim electronic control/gauges. . Since Deer seems to be the most popular I would probable go with Deer. Then of course you have the size the running gear to the hull and engine?

For a 40 ft boat the hulls speed is 6 to 8 knots, 100 hp, but to go over hull speed requires more HP, 200 HP and/or wide beam to get the boat up out of the water. The rest of the boat is not as complex as you can buy bundle/multi function electronics for a reasonable price. Furuno would be my choice. Since it going to be custom built the interior can be what you want. However, the hull, superstructure, engine, HP, running gear and tanks are the center/heart of the boat and not easily changed. :thumb:
 
Don't need wide beam for 12 to 16knots. In fact narrow is good. More beam = = more power and stiffer hull motion ... Uncomfortable.

I'd go for twin screw turbo as most desired but any good propulsion system is good. Also one does NOT need the most popular engine brands. There are lots and lots of excellent engines that aren't buzz words in the Nordhavn crowd. Think w your head instead of that thing out back. Some people let other people think for them and others think for themselves. If you're real dumb then others doing the thinking is real smart.

Even though I'm not generally keen on Lobster types the Krogen Express sure looks good to me. However I think the advantages of the Lobster hulls are centered around short steep seas and not open ocean stuff. I think a boat w a wider chine fwd would handle big ocean waves better.
 
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Integrity trawlers? Can you say "Island Gypsy".
 
dwhatty said:
Integrity trawlers? Can you say "Island Gypsy".
Click to expand...
Are they IG similar or derivative? A new semi displacement trawler style is just that, more modern in fit out design. I tell people you can buy new versions which, other than being new, are much the same. I`ve seen an Integrity 350 and was struck by how IG similar it was though of a lesser standard generally, but I could identify with owning one. The 380(around 500K) looks a step up from the 350,eg. fully opening saloon. Integrity keep updating & developing.
Someone must have the IG hull moulds, but lots of boats are like that. There was something like it called, maybe Sea Gypsy I don`t see it advertised now. Integrity is in a way a fair successor to IG. Not seeing them around Sydney harbour, like Alaska (my current dream), Blue Seas, etc, most retailing is in Queensland.
 
However "superbly seaworthy" it may be I'll bet big head seas would give it a pounding and ballast for that seaworthyness may put a dent in the efficiency.

Zero ballast is required on a well done hull,the Sea Bright hulls could carry an immense load , and land it , and left the shore empty.

To be a seaworthy boat requires the scantlings to be up to snuff , and for me the boat to be light enough and skinny enough .

If we look at our ancestors boats , light and slender was the rule.

One "cheat " I have designed in is a wide centerboard trunk , where the board would pivot side to side and be given a slight angle of attack to function as a roll damper. An air ram is fast enough , and simple enough.

On grounding or when not needed ,the board would simply pivot up as centerboards have been doing for centuries.

No hole knocked in the hull, or need for frangible fin construction as with "modern" high complexity high buck systems..

And remember this is still basically an inshore boat so 50K and 15 ft seas would be an ACCIDENT! , certainly survivable , but not normal cruising operation.

I'm not sure that many of my design could be sold as so few actually cruise , so most prefer a Roomaran, to an all weather cruising boat.

When I say skinny I am talking about a boat with near 6-1 LWL to beam , sorta like a catamaran in terms of pushing thu the water .

with a 39 LOA and LWL (to fit in a shipping container) the BWL ,( beam on the water line) is little over 6 ft.

The old Thunderbird 26ft cruiser/racer had similar beam dimensions , so a comfortable but hardly impressive interior is easy.

I'm still toying with the idea , and if I could find a place that was reasonable enough might toss $100K at it.

The usual hassle , light weight and strong requires a better standard of construction and many skills , not 3rd world standards.
One reason for aluminum, lots more places work with it to a reasonable standard.
 
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BruceK said:
Are they IG similar or derivative? A new semi displacement trawler style is just that, more modern in fit out design. I tell people you can buy new versions which, other than being new, are much the same. I`ve seen an Integrity 350 and was struck by how IG similar it was though of a lesser standard generally, but I could identify with owning one. The 380(around 500K) looks a step up from the 350,eg. fully opening saloon. Integrity keep updating & developing.
Someone must have the IG hull moulds, but lots of boats are like that. There was something like it called, maybe Sea Gypsy I don`t see it advertised now. Integrity is in a way a fair successor to IG. Not seeing them around Sydney harbour, like Alaska (my current dream), Blue Seas, etc, most retailing is in Queensland.
Click to expand...


It seems that we discussed this once before: Integrity Trawlers
 
Thanks to all who have provided feedback. I look forward to hearing from more people and thier list of "must haves". Regarding our current concept we are will be under 39 feet in lenght and 13' 6" in beam. The reason for the wider hull is for maximum interior space. Looked long and hard at Downeaster's and spoke with all the major builders. Came very close but determined that interior finish we desire would make the boat cost prohibitive and we would take a big hit with resale. Someone mentioned John Deere as the engine of choice and is in fact the direction we are looking at going. Dependability and reliability is a top priority sincew we insisting on a single engine configuration. I'm considering a steady sail and would appreciate input from anyone who has real life experience with this set up. I'm also looking at paravane's since we do not want active fin stabilizers this time around for a number of reasons. Besides using the boat on west coast we want it to a good fit for the east coast and islands.
 
N4061 said:
... I'm also looking at paravane's since we do not want active fin stabilizers this time around for a number of reasons.
Click to expand...
OK... as a fan of active fin stabilizers I wouldn't be without them. Would you share some reasons for not having them and preferring to deal with paravanes instead?

Dave
 
N4061 said:
I'm considering a steady sail and would appreciate input from anyone who has real life experience with this set up.
Click to expand...

How useful a steady sail might be to you depends on your expectations and the way you use the boat. I think you mentioned wanting speed greater than a N40? Efficent speed means light (or lighter) weight......This means a shallower and flatter bottomed hull. Light weight and shallow hull equals quicker motion which can be hard for a sail to deal with (lots of flapping). Sails will work on a slow rolling, heavy displacement boat. As long as you are willing to tack according to the wind. Remember the apparent wind moves forward with speed, again the slower you go the less you will need to tack (shallower angles).
 
"THE" Tad Roberts?
 
Active Fin Stabilizers

magicbus said:
OK... as a fan of active fin stabilizers I wouldn't be without them. Would you share some reasons for not having them and preferring to deal with paravanes instead?

Dave
Click to expand...


Dave, our primary reason for not wanting active fins on our next boat is a combination of wanting a simplier boat with less systems to worry about and the fact that on our two previous Nordhavns we found that we didn't need them better than 50% of the time due in part to the way we used the boat. I say didn't need them because we always had to run them so not to damage the system while running at 6 knots. If we were planning to cross an ocean or make frequent passages greater than 200 miles I would option for them. Our plans are for weekend and vacation runs of 60 - 80 miles with an occasional 500 mile run up the coast. For this we will watch the weather a little closer and use a steady sail and paravanes. I like the paravanes since when the weather is good we don't have to take the hit on speed (1kt) and fuel burn due to dragging fins. We plan to design a simplier approach to launching and retreiving them than the current style. I also didn't like having to stop the boat and remove kelp and occassional rope off the fins every time we entered San Diego Bay.

One reason I ilke the concept of using a wide beam, semi-displacement hull is the benefit of less role (versus 6kts) in a beam sea when you pick up the speed to the 10 - 12kts range. If things are very rough we deploy paravanes and slow down to 6-8kts until the weather calms then bring them in and pick up speed again. If anyone is wondering the cost difference between active fins like our TRAC stabs and a set of paravens it is about $35,000. Again, our goal is to increase our cruising speed from 6kts by 50% - 100% or to 9 - 12kts. This will make weekend trips in Southern California where the average distance between ports is 60 miles possible for us. Looking back over five years of travels with our Nordhavns the worst weather we hit was 5' - 7' head seas close together while traveling uphill from Enseneda, Mexico. Nothing helped the pitching and the active fin stab's while on did nothing to comfort us even when we changed course slightly so not to take the waves directly on the nose. The only that would have helped would have been a much larger boat with a a longer waterline. So in summary our desire is for a simplier boat, less expensive to build and operate while still providing the quality and comfort we have become use to and which may be attractive to others looking for the same. I feel there is a need for this type of boat and the marketplace has not yet offered it. In the end I could be wrong but at least I'm enjoying this project and will have a boat the way I want it next year. Thanks for your question.
 
Steady Sails

Tad Roberts said:
How useful a steady sail might be to you depends on your expectations and the way you use the boat. I think you mentioned wanting speed greater than a N40? Efficent speed means light (or lighter) weight......This means a shallower and flatter bottomed hull. Light weight and shallow hull equals quicker motion which can be hard for a sail to deal with (lots of flapping).


Ted, thank you for the insight. While the hull we are exploring is semi-displacement (38 x 13'6") the boat will be on the heavy side (30K lbs) as compared to the N40 at about 43K lbs with half load of fuel. The aft section of the hull is very similar to that of a Nordhavn and Selene and she has a full keel with 3 1/2' draft. So she has some some hull under the water and will not be flying across the top of the water. Based on this high level overview do you think the sail will provide some assistance in a beam sea without the parvanes deployed? Funny thing when I was researching Main Downeast boats were the number of older boats like Jarvis Newman that had a sail. If nothing else it looked good! Thank you for your assistance.
Click to expand...
 
Humm.....I just googled Jarvis Newman and could not find any pics of boats with a steadying sail. Perhaps you are thinking of the real (fishing) lobster boats with a small sail over the transom? That's not a steady sail as such, it's more a control flap, it helps cock the bow into the wind when they are stopped and hauling pots......it's a lot less rolly that way....
 
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