Anchor Sizes

As a current sailboat cruiser on a 41' 22,000# boat I have as my main anchor a 60# Manson Surpreme "new generation" anchor. This anchor has only ever dragged once in 12 years after it was "set" and has only not set right away twice. My backup anchor is a 45# Mantus, which I have only ever assembled once and has never been in the water.

So why does it seem, based on boat listings, that a 40-45# trawler will have a 35-50# CQR or a similar sized plow anchor? This boat weight MUCH more and have more windage than my sailboat.

Is it just that they don't cruise and stay on anchor a lot? Does this go along with the low engine hours I have noted? It is that the bow just isn't designed to hold a bigger anchor?

What anchors are your anchor out type cruiser with 40-45' trawlers using?

Never mind I found some old threads and don't want to start a new flame battle. If you want to answer and discuss that is great. If you want you just post "it has already been answered" type of of response PLEASE just move on.

I always like to go larger than the manufacturer recommended size. Assuming the windlass can handle the weight and the anchor will fit in the pulpit.

A similar size stroller is heavier and should use a bigger anchor.
I have a 44' sundeck cruiser I have a 44' Sunday cruiser, And I have a 105 pound mantus. This full time at anchor. I have never had the anchor drag

Don L said:

Is it just that they don't cruise and stay on anchor a lot? Does this go along with the low engine hours I have noted? It is that the bow just isn't designed to hold a bigger anchor?

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I don't think it's a trawler-thing. I think you are comparing yourself - a very active boater with the legions of passive owners, sail and power. Walking the docks, most boats seem to have undersized anchors. I suspect that when someone sells their boat they often keep the bigger anchor for their next boat so many boats come with undersized ground tackle. Although you'd never know it from forums, very few folks cruise their boats - anchors get used for lunch-hook at best, perhaps an overnight in perfect weather. Doesn't take much. You could go further - chain vs rope rode; use of snubbers, multiple anchors. Casual users - sail or power - don't get into this type of improvement.

I don't think you can draw any conclusions on power vs sail on this one. Maybe cruiser vs non-cruiser; perhaps fanatic owner vs casual owner.

Peter

mvweebles said:

I don't think it's a trawler-thing. ..................Although you'd never know it from forums, very few folks cruise their boats - anchors get used for lunch-hook at best, perhaps an overnight in perfect weather.

I don't think you can draw any conclusions on power vs sail on this one. Maybe cruiser vs non-cruiser; perhaps fanatic owner vs casual owner.

Peter

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I pretty much accept this. I lately have been trying to get to know and ask questions of the trawler cruisers around me. Back in day when I hauled each winter I used to walk the yard and wonder about the tiny anchors. One year I had mine on the ground to work on something and everyone walking by commented on how big it was, which I then knew I had the right size.

If/when I get a trawler I have to able to go to sleep knowing I am good at anchor for a 180 degree wind shift during a 60 mph front.

Anchor Size

Have a 37 NT, actually around 40’ and around 30,000 lbs with full tanks and provisioned. Have a 33kg original Rocna and could probably gone with a 25kg but happy to go larger.

Don L said:

I pretty much accept this. I lately have been trying to get to know and ask questions of the trawler cruisers around me. Back in day when I hauled each winter I used to walk the yard and wonder about the tiny anchors. One year I had mine on the ground to work on something and everyone walking by commented on how big it was, which I then knew I had the right size.

If/when I get a trawler I have to able to go to sleep knowing I am good at anchor for a 180 degree wind shift during a 60 mph front.

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Seamanship and risk avoidance knows no bounds between power and sail. I think more sailors aspire to self reliance and independence which leads to heavier and higher quality equipment choices whether or not they actually execute on those desires, but for those who seek to cruise, choices are similar. Heavy ground tackle, etc. On this forum, power users are pretty experienced, most (not all) came from sail. Old habits die hard.

I believe I have a Fortress FX55

The whole question in post 1 is wrong.
It’s design not weight.
Every anchor is different yes but holding power (HP) varies wildly on most bottom types that aren’t a nice combination of sand and mud. Fortunately most bottoms in most places are generally good mud. I’m guessing 1/3 sand and 2/3 mud. But an anchor that holds well in mud may do poorly in gravel like perhaps a Danforth Anchor with shank and flukes forged .. not punched out of sheetmetal.

Ideally an excellent anchor (for a bottom type) and a good bottom will result in best results. And some anchors perform fairly well on most all bottom types. While others like the Danforth does poorly in some conditions.

Lots of variables like veering performance and short scope performance … just two variables.

But putting so much bias on anchor weight can lead one astray. Most important is design .. not weight. Worth repeating design not weight. And an anchor 10% heavier on anchor A dos’nt mean a 10% increase in weight of anchor B will render the same increase in performance. But it could turn out that way. Variables

Comodave said:

I always like to go larger than the manufacturer recommended size. Assuming the windlass can handle the weight and the anchor will fit in the pulpit.

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There's a good hint in this post. I do suspect some sellers take their good anchor with them for next boat. But can't take windlass and rode which are harder and more expensive to replace. The OP is looking at listings for trawlers and this information is seldom provided, but I'd be more concerned with rode chain size and windlass capacity than anchor size. OP is on Bahamas with shallow anchorages so may not be a big deal, but chain length may also be important depending on intended cruising grounds.

Sturdy ground tackle system for a 40-ish foot boat (sail or trawler) with windlass, rode, and anchor will run $5k-$6k plus install. Unless the original owner intended on cruising, an easy place to cut corners. Have to look at the entire system, not just the components. That said, i doubt many undersized anchors are backed by adequate rode and windlass

Peter

well I added the cost of an 80-100 pound new generation anchor to my spreadsheet as so far I have not read a listing of a boat that caught my attention having anything close to an adequate anchor

thanks

I have a 73 pound Rocna with 3/8" all chain rhode on my 45' trawler.

To some degree, where you anchor (mud, sand, etc.) has an impact on size (Chesapeake Bay as an example). Whether running all chain or a combination rhode is also a factor. Finally, there's scope. I'm old school 7:1 or more depending on conditions.

While I'm sure you have lots of experience anchoring offshore. Most trawlers are probably anchored in more protected areas or tied to the dock. While I anchor out most of the time, it's rare to be in over 2' seas and almost always land is up wind less than a mile.

I sleep well at night.

Ted

Had a Rocna on the sailboat and now a Vulcan in the trawler. Our first purchase refitting was the Vulcan. Think cruising sailboats anchor out more. And agree with OC usually due to less draft in more protected situations. No hard data just an opinion.

Hippocampus said:

Had a Rocna on the sailboat and now a Vulcan in the trawler. Our first purchase refitting was the Vulcan. Think cruising sailboats anchor out more. And agree with OC usually due to less draft in more protected situations. No hard data just an opinion.

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I think that's part of it. I think most trawlers tend to have a higher center of gravity and are less comfortable in seas at anchor. Other than staterooms at the waterline, trawlers tend to have common area living spaces higher above the waterline than sailboats do. I much prefer my saloon over the average sailboat, but not in seas at anchor.

Ted

Don L said:

So why does it seem, based on boat listings, that a 40-45# trawler will have a 35-50# CQR or a similar sized plow anchor? This boat weight MUCH more and have more windage than my sailboat.

Is it just that they don't cruise and stay on anchor a lot? Does this go along with the low engine hours I have noted? It is that the bow just isn't designed to hold a bigger anchor?

What anchors are your anchor out type cruiser with 40-45' trawlers using?

Never mind I found some old threads and don't want to start a new flame battle. If you want to answer and discuss that is great.

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Yeah, much like Peter said, there are cruisers (not so much) and then there are really cruisers.

Former maybe marina hop instead of anchoring, or maybe only anchor in wonderful weather, or maybe haven't anchored enough to experience drag and reset, or maybe have never heard the word "windage," or maybe believed the boat manufacturer had a clue when they fitted the OEM anchor (very commonly an undersized Delta, around here), or maybe believed the anchor manufacturer who described their 4-lb wonder as perfect for the Titanic...

Fixable, once you get your boat.

-Chris

Nomad Willy said:

The whole question in post 1 is wrong.
It’s design not weight.

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I don't think Don's original question is at all about design or weight.

I think he's asking instead about why unsuitable anchors are so prevalent.

(My interpretation, anyway.)

Suitable is probably nuanced. Unsuitable is more easily categorized.

-Chris

Our original anchor on our 1999 Bayliner 4788, ~45,000# all in, was 45# CQR, dragged the first evening we used it and there wasn't even that much wind, skedaddled to a marina before it got dark. Upgraded to a Mantus 85# with same windlass and 5/16" all chain rode. Never had an issue but then started thinking that in a big blow, i.e. 50knot winds we need more per Mantus. Their 'storm' anchor recommendation was a 105#, we upgraded to 3/8" G4 chain and new windlass. Being out in the Bahamas didn't want to take a chance and in the past few weeks have had several 40+knot storms go through. Sleep well at night.


I too am stunned at the small sizing of anchors, especially SS, on significant size boats. Lots of people at our marina raft up overnight and then expect two anchors to support 4-6+ boats overnight. Something we never do is raft together if at all possible. I suspect none of them think they'll ever be out at night in a blow, all sailors must be prepared for such an eventuality.



https://www.mantusmarine.com/mantus...ing/?msclkid=82e2212cda2613dc3a9a45348992a4d6

A lot of boats come with the "it needs an anchor so we can sell it" anchor from the factory. And then many never get upgraded, as a lot of people just don't anchor out, or only for a few hours at a time during the day. They either don't travel, or they just marina hop.

My own boat was originally equipped (37 years ago) with a spectacularly tiny 13 pound CQR on the bow. This is on a 38 foot boat that weighs about 27k lbs loaded. It wasn't even sufficient to hold the boat through a tide change with a 1/2 knot current and no wind... That was then replaced with a Fortress G-23 (still too small, but that's aboard for use as a stern anchor). When I got the boat I replaced the original under-powered rope-only windlass with a much bigger unit (Maxwell HRC10-8) and put a 73lb Rocna Vulcan on the bow. The boat made it to 33 years old before ever having adequate ground tackle installed, as it had never previously needed it much (the boat had probably spent less than 20 nights at anchor in 33 years).

One of the things I didn't mention:

In photos as I "shop" boats a lot of them have 2 anchors on the bow, a "big" one and small one. Seems most of time they are both CQRs that look to have been used, but even the "big" is way too small IMO.

My 41' sailboat came from the factory with a 44# Delta. That was soooo much more anchor than I am seeing on 40-45' trawlers.

Oh well, everything on boats can be fixed with the proper application of CASH

Generally I look at anchors, fenders, and dock lines the same way I look at tires or brake pads on a car: it'll come with them, but by default I assume they're going to be junk I'll want to replace immediately. If I find one for sale that contains any of those items that end up being something I actually want to keep and use, that's a bonus.

Don L said:

One of the things I didn't mention:

In photos as I "shop" boats a lot of them have 2 anchors on the bow, a "big" one and small one. Seems most of time they are both CQRs that look to have been used, but even the "big" is way too small IMO.

My 41' sailboat came from the factory with a 44# Delta. That was soooo much more anchor than I am seeing on 40-45' trawlers.

Oh well, everything on boats can be fixed with the proper application of CASH

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Anchor itself probably won't make or break your choice of boat. But one thing you may want to pay attention to is whether there is adequate distance between the roller and the windlass. CQRs are probably the longest shank anchor out there so instantly indicates adequate distance. Also, not all boats (power or sail) have adequate chain stoppers to hold chain fast when stowed on roller.

One place where trawlers typically excel compared to sail is anchor locker - many sailboats simply do not have enough fall, especially older sailboats with very fine, raked bows.

Unless a boat has been seriously cruised by a knowledgeable owner, chances are the ground tackle system is going to need some attention. If you're lucky, only an anchor.

Peter

mvweebles said:

Unless a boat has been seriously cruised by a knowledgeable owner, chances are the ground tackle system is going to need some attention. If you're lucky, only an anchor.

Peter

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Yes I have started a spreadsheet for expected upgrades I would need to match my current cruising. I think even if I found a boat that already has them that the extra engine hours and wear and tear might way more than offset. But it doesn't currently matter and when time comes all that matters is what is available. I am a boat buyer and not a shopper and don't drag choice out looking for the mystery "perfect" boat.

The 40 ft Albin weighed 26,000 pounds "dry" and I used a 35 lb Danforth anchor and all 5/16 chain.
Had the boat 15 years, anchored hundreds of times overnight, many times multiple nights, many times in 35 knot winds and thunderstorms.
That anchor never dragged.

I put a model 140 (66 lb) Spade anchor on my 42 Nordic Tug, all chain rode of ~310 feet. It’s oversized for the weight of my boat, but I am very happy with the performance. I don’t have a lunch hook. My second anchor is set up to be a primary anchor to be used in case the first anchor is lost….I’ve anchored in 100 feet with my spade, in big reversing tidal currents, and it held like a champ.

There are plenty of comically undersized anchor in my marina, several are shiny stainless deltas, which seem to be a popular standard or optional equipment on the newer cruising sailboats.

I couple seasons ago, I was walking down the dock and noticed what appeared to be a galvanized delta except the design was asymmetrical. It challenged my small brain to such a degree that I stopped in my tracks and stared at the bow of this boat, finally realizing a collision caused this "modification" and the piling right in front of me had served as the anvil for this alteration. Right about this time, there was movement in the cockpit and I made eye contact with the skipper who had most likely rammed into the piling. I was caught flat-footed, felt I needed to say something and only came up with "I guess I see how that happened". I really need to work on my introductions.

50 ton trawler. 75 kg main spade on 180 meter of chain. 55kg spade as ketch/backup on 50 meter rope.
“When they don’t make fun of your oversized anchor, it’s too small”

Graeme Walker said:

Upgraded to a Mantus 85# with same windlass and 5/16" all chain rode... per Mantus. Their 'storm' anchor recommendation was a 105#, we upgraded to 3/8" G4 chain and new windlass.

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Graeme, I'm trying to understand your path. Did you upgrade to the 105#, or only upgraded your chain?

I am a believer in bigger is better.
I remember reading an article by Steve Dashew about anchor size. He said something to the effect of (I’m using quotes but this is not an exact quote) “look around the marinas at boats of your size and type. Whatever anchor size most are using, double it! And if your setup can possibly handle it, go a half bigger again”.
We currently have a 44lb Bruce on a commercial style deck mounted “reel” windlass. If I can find one I’ll buy a 66lb.
Yes, the is for a stout 32’ boat but I like to sleep at night!

I was just thinking that the number of anchor threads seems to have been slowing down over the years. How are we supposed to argue now??

I think it's all been ruined by Steve on Panope. Ever since he started testing anchors in objective, methodological ways, all of our wacky opinions don't hold water anymore.

Mako said:

I was just thinking that the number of anchor threads seems to have been slowing down over the years. How are we supposed to argue now??

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LiFePO battery discussion seems have overtaken anchor threads in prevalence.

I think I welcome the change, perhaps the next debates will be about Artificial Intelligence versus natural ignorance.