Lithium Ion Batts and Fires

Does this article raise concerns for boat use? Maybe it`s nothing new. We all use these batteries for power tools, they have made battery powered tools way more usable.

The number of house fires due to electric car batts is a concern, you`d hope they would be safe as vehicle numbers rise and batts are charged overnight while cars are garaged.
If there were battery related fires on boats with LI batteries it would surely have figured on TF and it hasn`t, so maybe not an issue. Maybe boats are safer, or owners more careful.

BruceK said:

Does this article raise concerns for boat use? Maybe it`s nothing new. We all use these batteries for power tools, they have made battery powered tools way more usable.

The number of house fires due to electric car batts is a concern, you`d hope they would be safe as vehicle numbers rise and batts are charged overnight while cars are garaged.
If there were battery related fires on boats with LI batteries it would surely have figured on TF and it hasn`t, so maybe not an issue. Maybe boats are safer, or owners more careful.

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We don't use the same Li-ion chemistry on boats as they do in power tools or cars. Though some EV's are now using Lifepo4 too..

Is there supposed to be a link to an article?

twistedtree said:

Is there supposed to be a link to an article?

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Um, yes, there was:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02...w-fire-risk-says-firefighters-union/101888598

BruceK said:

Um, yes, there was:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02...w-fire-risk-says-firefighters-union/101888598

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Thanks. For whatever reason the initial post was just a picture from the article.


I think any fire risk on a boat comes from batteries that are NOT LifePO4 (LFP), and that includes all the things in the article like e-bikes, scooters, wave runners, etc. Those are what you need to worry about, and treat with great care.

twistedtree said:

Thanks. For whatever reason the initial post was just a picture from the article.


I think any fire risk on a boat comes from batteries that are NOT LifePO4 (LFP), and that includes all the things in the article like e-bikes, scooters, wave runners, etc. Those are what you need to worry about, and treat with great care.

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Also mobile phones, tablets, Cameras, power tools, drones

BUT NOT lifepo4 house batteries.

Bruce you may want to take a read at the article below by John Adey the President of the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC):

slowgoesit said:

Bruce you may want to take a read at the article below by John Adey the President of the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC):

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Interesting read, thanks.

BruceK said:

Does this article raise concerns for boat use?

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the low quality, as cheap as possible battery packs in some consumer devices are down right terrifying.



A well engineered, properly tested and installed, and certified by a reputable standards organization battery system is probably less dangerous than the coffee pot in the galley.

Simi 60 said:

Also mobile phones, tablets, Cameras, power tools, drones

BUT NOT lifepo4 house batteries.

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True, but there are big differences in battery size (and associated damage potential) between a phone/tablet/camera, a power tool, and an e-bike or waverunner.


Thankfully I don't have an ebike or e-propulsions device, but I'd be most cautious about those. They have big batteries, and are much less proven that things like phones and power tools. Such gadgets have burned a couple of mega yachts to the water like. I think at a minimum, never leave them plugged in or on a charger if you aren't on the boat and awake. And charge away from flammables as much as possible.


Power tools are next, but with millions in service they are much more proven. Still, I try not to leave batteries in the chargers.


And for a house bank, I agree that LFP is the only option.


I don't think I could get comfortable with a large propulsion battery bank like for an electric or hybrid boat unless it was LFP, and I think most are not.

I don't keep battery powered tools on board normally (the permanent boat power tools are all corded). But when working with cordless tools for a bigger project, I normally charge the batteries in the galley next to the sink. Lithium-ion battery fires can be suppressed by submerging the battery in water to cool it and stop the runaway. The thought would be to at least be able to run water over the thing, if not block the sink drain and just flood it (after knocking the charger and battery into the sink) if something went wrong. I figure being able to knock the battery into the sink is more likely than being able to throw it overboard.

for small-ish devices, get a charging bag, one example
https://www.amazon.com/HOOVO-Fireproof-Explosionproof-Capacity-Detachable/dp/B0B4SJZP8Z

they have them sized for RC car bats, phones, removable e-bike batteries. if you have concerns about small battery charging, these are cheap solutions.

No car sized ones yet

Apparently a new formulation is going into production.

Sodium ion

No lithium. No fire risk

I think Tesla is adopting it.

Apparently equal or better in temperature range performance. Charges faster. Twice the cycle life. But heavier and faster self discharge rate. Cheaper too.

Sodium ion. Here's one clip thats optimistic, and a second that's pessimistic.



Its not here yet, so regardless of the future of this, it won't change decisions that need to be made now.

This new tech is intriguing so I'm sitting here doing searches.

While on paper the sodium ion has less energy density by volume, a key thing is that it LIKES being taken to a zero state of charge. They are shipped at a zero state. So a 200 amp battery would have 200 useable amps, and no longer would we have to worry about taking the charge too low. Or buying a 200 amp battery to get use of 160 amps at 80% discharge or 120 amps at 60% discharge. Coupled with at least twice the cycle life than lithium ion or LifePo, it would seem to have a lot going for it so long as there are no surprises in the charge process or other battery management items.

I can't say whether or not sodium ion batteries will become better that Lithium Ion batteries. But I'm confident that it will take much, much longer for them to mature to the point where they have any market share. This stuff just takes a lot longer than most people think. We are 30 years into Lithium Ion to get where we are today, with a lot of different variants tried, tested, rejected, etc. before settling on the few blends commonly used.


One of the videos just showed promotional material from the cell manufacturer. That's immediately suspect. All the volume manufacturing footage is for other batteries, not sodium. So implied volume manufacturing when that's not the case at all.


Also showing Musk and an article headline about Tesla changing batteries is even more misleading. The headline and article is about Tesla switching to LFP for a portion of their product line. It has absolutely nothing to do with sodium batteries. So an implied endorsement that is totally misleading. I'd even call it an out and out lie.


When that's the quality and style of promotional material, I just stop listening because it's total BS. I'll check back on 5 and then 10 years to see if it's gone anywhere.


The only credible article I found (admitted I didn't look for very long) was from Cornell's material science department talking about a phenomenon in sodium batteries that greatly limits their cycle life (it's much lower than lithium ion) and how they were experimenting with different materials to improve the cycle life. So that's where the technology really is - University research working to overcome fundamental issues. That doesn't mean it won't be great someday, but it's still a long way away with no guarantee the it will actually emerge as being better than anything available today.

TT:

I agree 100%

Which is why I wrote above:

"Its not here yet, so regardless of the future of this, it won't change decisions that need to be made now."

When a reasonable number of dealers have something, in a form factor that works for us, and we know exactly what the characteristics are, and know insurance underwriters are cool with it, then it becomes an option.

But since production is beginning for non-marine uses, its more than a pipe dream, but not yet an option for us.

For some reason, I ran across a London Fire Brigade report last year, and it was an eye opener. There are YouTube videos of lithium batteries on scooters and bikes catching fire, and sometimes it looks like they are exploding. The fires I saw where in relatively open spaces for the most part. Having a fire, like what is in the videos, in the confined space of a boat, would be horrific.

Years ago, I had a NiMH tool battery start smoking after a short use and replacing in the battery charger. If I had not smelled something, found the smoking battery and got it out of the house, I think the battery would have caught fire and burned down the house.

That was my last working tool battery and for years I got along without battery powered tools. However, last year I HAD to have a battery power tool and bought a new Lithium based product. When I charge the batteries, it is in a place if they do catch fire, they will not burn down the house and where I can watch them. After they are charged, they are taken out of the charger and everything put away. Good news is that the batteries certainly stay charged and they charge fast.

On a boat, I would watch the batteries charge and they would be on the deck so I could sweep them over the side if there was a problem.

Later,
Dan

In general, the batteries used in consumer goods; e.g., tablets, e-scooters, power tools, cameras, etc. are not the LFP batteries, either cylindrical or prismatic, that the marine industry (Victron, MasterVolt, Lithionics, etc.) has embraced.

I believe that the primary causes of failure of these consumer good batteries are: low quality cells and very, very basic BMS's.

That said, Torqeedo, and others, utilize lithium compositions that yield much higher energy densities. For example, the Torqeedo Deep Blue 80i uses a marinized BMW battery pack (NMC) that has an on board refrigeration system to maintain its temperature.

And, BTW, that is why ABYC E13 is titled "Lithium Batteries" and not "Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries".

The ABYC testing referenced earlier proved that LFP batteries (the only lithium battery chemistry used for recreational boat house banks) are LESS likely to catch fire than an AGM.or flooded battery.

Now if we could just get insurance companies to understand the difference too.

@CarlF

(the only lithium battery chemistry used for recreational boat house banks)

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Not true...see #19.

CharlieJ said:

@CarlF
Not true...see #19.

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Did you miss the qualifier "house banks" in post #19?

CarlF said:

The ABYC testing referenced earlier proved that LFP batteries (the only lithium battery chemistry used for recreational boat house banks) are LESS likely to catch fire than an AGM.or flooded battery.

Now if we could just get insurance companies to understand the difference too.

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Trust me- they are getting the message and adopting...

We have a fire bag on board all aircraft in case a device battery has a runaway. Boats are different in that we can just throw it overboard. The poor quality and high output of device batteries is also why they must all be removed from your luggage and not stored in the baggage compartment.