define; "Overall length"

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twistedtree said:
In this context, what matters is the Port of Ketchikan's definition, and nothing else.
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I had reserved a slip at a marina in the pacific northwest and was concerned about their definition as I wanted to be sure I would fit from their perspective. When I arrived, they measured the boat and told me that I didn't fit. And under their unusual measurement methodology (which they hadn't mentioned during our telephonic discussion), I didn't. They measured the perimeter length along one side (sort of like measuring the circumference of a circle, rather than its diameter). I couldn't convince them that no one measures that way and that it made no sense.
 
CharlieO. said:
Correct, but I thought it was 32' limit. They are all over Cook Inlet and Bristol Bay.
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yes it is 32' for Bristol Bay gillnet boats.

Many boats in the homer yard have a bow like the one pictured.
 
Crusty Chief said:
Greetings my old Friend!

Hope all is well with you these days and hope I might shed some light on your situation.

Our Pairadice was documented as a 47’ vessel and through all of our travels we got away with her being a 47 when requesting dock space because after all, that’s what it said on both sides of the Pilot house. Well, almost all places!

It seemed to us that while seeking a transit slip on almost all places we traveled to, they accepted the CC Documentation stated length of 47’. However, while mooring her in a marina in Portland, Oregon we were measured by the marina staff and they determined that we were in fact 52.5 ft overall. This measurement was from the furthest point of the anchor (while in the pulpit) to the very back of the swim platform (with the swim platform in the down position. We could fold it up in a vertical position and gain 2.5 ft less overall length).
Most marina’s would allow us to back into a slip and if the swim platform was down and not quite touching the dock we would exceed the other end of the dock a couple of feet and no one would complain, as we usally were charged for the slip length versus overall length.
This was the case for virtually all marinas we traveled to all the way down the west coast, through the Panama Canal and back up to the east coast. Until we decided to park for 6 months or so in Hilton Head, South Carolina. There we could only acquire a 50’ slip and we had to fold up the swim platform in order to fit by there rules. And it was a very tight fit for us.

Which is a long way to say, I think you will run into the same problem there in K town. But as I recall, lots of the fishing fleet there in K Town exceeded the overall length of the docks by more than a couple of feet.

So put on your dancing rain boots and try sweet talking the marina guru’s and plead the 5th or what ever gives you the best results.

Hope for the best, buddy!

Cheers, John
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Greetings back John, Lost track of you guys when you headed South and to the East, and last I suppose, on the hard someplace inland.
What you say on length as did O.C and a third party here, is the situation here in Ketchikan. Overall is from the tip of the anchor to the most aft point. That being the case, and the LOA of a 34 CHB follows that rule, I believe that I can make a 34 CHB fit by eliminating the anchor platform, placing the anchor on deck. install a brass anchor roller assembly that folds back on to the deck and then out and over the cap rail with a security pin to hold it in place for anchor retrieval, too, eliminate the swim step and go with a over the cap rail ladder.
Using the assumed mast and boom, to place the inflatable on the aft cabin top or as I am prone to do on the "Slo Belle" tow it. So there is a solution were I to pull the plug and get serious on a larger boat with accommodations that would suit.
By the way John, lost the Mate year ago December, 63 glorious passion filled years. Tough.
Have not heard from Tom in many moons, and as they are not traveling much, not surprised.

Take care and thanks to all who gave advice.:flowers: The joy of this site.
Al
 
twistedtree said:
I think this is the best way to go about it. In this context, what matters is the Port of Ketchikan's definition, and nothing else.
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Correct to have found, and thank you:flowers:
 
In the bar it is every little inch you can think of.

In the marina it is basically the edge of the stern of the boat (without swim platform) until the most forward point of the boat in the water.

Diffence in my case is about 12 feet :)
 
LOA as seen from a tugboat operator

length Over All (L.O.A) can be a changing number. In reality the LOA is the furthest fwd point of your vessel including equipment to the furthest point aft. If you were to bring your anchor on deck and remove a tender from the swim step, this would reduce your LOA. When it comes to regulatory (USCG, State, or other) there is often a registered length. And this is determined by the construction of the vessel. Where it gets complicated with smaller vessels meant for pleasure not commercial is that the standards for construction are much more relaxed. Which does create flexibility in the construction and ultimately different answers as to how long your boat is.
 
It’s confusing at best. Our boat is a 38 Bayliner known but three model numbers after the original model name Explorer was dropped. 3870, 3818 and 3888, all the same hull and superstructure.
We generally travel without a dinghy and tow an 11’ Whaler on occasion. I measured the boat out of the water, by dropping a plumb bob off of the tip of the anchor pulpit and another off the center of the swim step and measured the distance as 41’11”. When I go to a marina I reserve based on 42’ and often have to pay for a 45’ slip depending on marina policy.
In my case, this agrees with the revised USCG measurement which, as I read it, includes anything “permanently attached”. While technically possible, the anchor pulpit and swim step are removable, let’s be honest, it’s not going to happen in most cases. If I were to carry a transom mounted dinghy, I’d expect to pay a marina for whatever goes beyond the swim step. The difference is so nominal and the marinas have such a short time to make their money, being that cheap times lost of boats can make the business not viable.
 
My boat may be the most accurate ever named. It's a Mainship Pilot 355 based on the alleged LOA of 35'5". I think it was just a marketing ploy to make buyers think they were buying a 35-footer. In reality, it's the same hull and same dimensions as the Mainship Pilot 31. Years ago, model names were often based on the hull size prior to adding swim platforms, bowsprits etc. I onced owned an Island Packet 27 that measured over 30'. Today it seems better marketing to have the model name much closer to the LOA. Like in the case of my boat, it grew 4ft w/o changing a thing but the name.
 
the definition of loa is not always the same, in Spain they measure the waterline

a lot of boats in europe is from the base of the ancker platform till the back of the boat, without swimplatform or davids

as a former harbour master im interested for the length from the first point to the last point, if you have a port where you go into boxes length is not a big issue, if you are inland and you are on the side of the river then if you give a shorter length you can't get on your reserved place

on lager boats 18+meter they measure from the first bulkhead till the back of the boat without swimplatform or davids

With my registration i have on paper 54 foot but i have to reserve 59 foot so i have place for my anchor and dingy on the davids
 
This string, like so many others, is gut-busting funny. Love it! Never a dull moment on Trawler Forum. Shall we take a poll and have the majority define LOA? Or, heaven forbid, we simply look it up in the regs? Nah...too dull. John Cleese would make the perfect star for a BBC comedy series on this topic.
 
Captain K said:
This string, like so many others, is gut-busting funny. Love it! Never a dull moment on Trawler Forum. Shall we take a poll and have the majority define LOA? Or, heaven forbid, we simply look it up in the regs? Nah...too dull. John Cleese would make the perfect star for a BBC comedy series on this topic.
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This may apply.....

 
To me, Length Overall is what the documentation says it is. Length on Deck is what the marina wants to know for overhang.
 
PierreR said:
To me, Length Overall is what the documentation says it is. Length on Deck is what the marina wants to know for overhang.
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I've always known LOD to exclude bolted on features and only measure along the top of the molded hull/deck. As an example of a builder that gives good length values, the Beneteau Swift Trawler 35 is listed as 37'0" LOA and 35'6" hull length (which is generally very close to LOD). The difference being that the LOA measurement includes the anchor roller and anchor.



Oddly, in that example, Beneteau lists "hull beam" as 13'0" and "overall width" as 13'3". I've always known beam to be the widest point unless you're specifically talking about waterline beam. I've never seen a builder list the width of the hull and then go "oh yeah, but X part sticks out a little further".
 
rslifkin said:
I've always known LOD to exclude bolted on features and only measure along the top of the molded hull/deck. As an example of a builder that gives good length values, the Beneteau Swift Trawler 35 is listed as 37'0" LOA and 35'6" hull length (which is generally very close to LOD). The difference being that the LOA measurement includes the anchor roller and anchor.



Oddly, in that example, Beneteau lists "hull beam" as 13'0" and "overall width" as 13'3". I've always known beam to be the widest point unless you're specifically talking about waterline beam. I've never seen a builder list the width of the hull and then go "oh yeah, but X part sticks out a little further".
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You are correct about LOD vs LOA although LOA would also include swim platform not just anchor. I could see the Beneteau example as being correct because beam is likely the widest part of the hull but there could be things that extend beyond that envelope. Railings could extend slightly owtward or maybe something on the flybridge. It could also be the width of the hull prior to adding the rubrail? In other words, it wouldn't fit in a box that was 13' wide.
 
backinblue said:
You are correct about LOD vs LOA although LOA would also include swim platform not just anchor. I could see the Beneteau example as being correct because beam is likely the widest part of the hull but there could be things that extend beyond that envelope. Railings could extend slightly owtward or maybe something on the flybridge. It could also be the width of the hull prior to adding the rubrail? In other words, it wouldn't fit in a box that was 13' wide.
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I think the rubrail is exactly what causes the width difference. It's just odd that they chose to quote both numbers instead of just the widest one.

As far as the swim platform, it's molded into the hull on that boat, so it counts as part of the LOD. Otherwise the difference would be larger, like on my boat with a bolt-on platform. LOD is 38'0" (which the builder incorrectly listed as LOA). Actual LOA including the pulpit and swim platform measured out to 42'4". Of course, they did some other creative measuring on this boat (like claiming a draft that might be barely attainable with nothing on the boat, empty tanks, salt water, and the props rotated to not have a blade pointing directly downward). They also went against the modern trend of quoting sleeping capacity as "every place you could possibly squeeze a person" and listed it as 4 (accounting for 2 in the forward bunk, 2 in the aft) and ignored that you could (if desired) sleep 2 more on the factory provided fold-out couch in the salon. Really, the boat can sleep 6 in proper bunks, although 4 is the most I'd want on a regular basis.
 
rslifkin said:
I think the rubrail is exactly what causes the width difference. It's just odd that they chose to quote both numbers instead of just the widest one.

As far as the swim platform, it's molded into the hull on that boat, so it counts as part of the LOD. Otherwise the difference would be larger, like on my boat with a bolt-on platform. LOD is 38'0" (which the builder incorrectly listed as LOA). Actual LOA including the pulpit and swim platform measured out to 42'4". Of course, they did some other creative measuring on this boat (like claiming a draft that might be barely attainable with nothing on the boat, empty tanks, salt water, and the props rotated to not have a blade pointing directly downward). They also went against the modern trend of quoting sleeping capacity as "every place you could possibly squeeze a person" and listed it as 4 (accounting for 2 in the forward bunk, 2 in the aft) and ignored that you could (if desired) sleep 2 more on the factory provided fold-out couch in the salon. Really, the boat can sleep 6 in proper bunks, although 4 is the most I'd want on a regular basis.
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My swim platform is bolted on so not molded into the hull. Also, beam may be important to some evaluating and comparing different boats. A boat with a really thick rubrail may add many inches to beam which may not be as accurate as some may think.
 
The USCG defines "breadth" without rub rails......

Again, a well established definition, not the measurement for "fitting in a slip".

Though most boaters would be scared to death to take a slip where rub rails mattered too much.
 

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LOA is all about who is asking.

If its a marina, its from the forward most protrusion to the aft most protrusion.

Manufactures and the CG count what is incorporated into the construction of the boat. This would exclude items that are bolted on such as swim platforms and bow sprits. This is why swim platforms and bow sprits are sometimes part of the LOA and sometimes not.

There was a time when some manufacturers measured the boat from bow to stern along the outside edge. This resulted in numbers like 42' when the boat was only 40'9" by a more standard measurement process.

Then some owners have ego and they measure everything then add 2 feet for more bragging rights. Other owners are cheap and try to pass off the water line as their LOA.

So, what would you like your LOA to be?
 
Entering the US, called customs to announce and was asked the length of the boat. At the time I had a 30 footer. OK, said the gentleman, is it 30 feet really or is that what you call it. I quickly said it is 29.6', which is the actual size when sold new.
He laughed and said had it been 30 feet or more I would have to charge you an entry fee.
So length does matter.

Oh crap, It has been a while since crossing into the US, what is that fee now. Hidden boating costs.
A U.S. pleasure craft and a foreign-flag vessel without a cruising license (30 feet or longer in length) must pay an annual decal user fee of $27.50. User Fee Decals may be purchased online through the Decal Transponder Online Procurement System DTOPS.
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Thats why you never take too much of the internet seriously when it comes to official terms.
 
Formula lists our 41PC as 41’ LOA excluding the bow pulpit, then it is 43’. The OEM swim platform was flush with the transom. We added an extended swim platform so now it is 43’ plus the bow pulpit makes it 45’.
 
Alterations can obviously change legal descriptions.....or not. Its spelled out in many places.
 
Comodave said:
Formula lists our 41PC as 41’ LOA excluding the bow pulpit, then it is 43’. The OEM swim platform was flush with the transom. We added an extended swim platform so now it is 43’ plus the bow pulpit makes it 45’.
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You are giving 2 footitis a new meaning
 
I could be wrong. I will read the documentation again.
 
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