Propane Bottle Location Requirements

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Pineapple Girl

Pineapple Girl

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Joined
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Location
USA
Vessel Name
Pineapple Girl 3
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Silverton 38c
Hmm am I being paranoid to worry about putting it in the area behind the steering area? The area I am thinking of is what we call "the brow". My concern is that there are holes (wire chases) in the floor of that area that open into the saloon. Is there a chance of propane leaking into the saloon? Sorry if I am being ignorant. We have one locker in the flybridge that is completly sealed off but there is no drain. It seems about the right size for two propane bottles. Not sure if that was what it was meant for. But it seems a bit of a long run for a propane line to the galley so maybe it just "is what it is" no purpose intended for it.

When we bought the boat there was actually a full size propane bottle on the sundeck, rigged up to the BBQ, and the surveryor told us that we had to remove that, it had to be in a locker. Not sure if that is for ABYC standards or insurance or what?

I am VERY interested in switching to a propane stove as it is a royal pain to have to fire up the generator to cook when we are anchored out, so I really appreciate the dialog on this.

My boat is an overseas PT 35 ('84) so I'd expect some design similarities...
 
Greetings,
Ms. Jennifer. Nope, you're NOT being ignorant. Propane will seep down into the saloon through the wire chases. Hmmmm....cute AND smart! If you have a locker which may serve, put in a vent and use it keeping in mind the vent must allow drainage of any accumulated propane with NO chance what-so-ever of it entering the interior of the boat.
I'm not familiar with the regulations but I see no reason why a tank could not be mounted in the open on your flybridge. Any space to mount a purpose built propane locker?
 
Thanks RTF. I will have to look at the survey to see what the issue was with the propane bottles. I really don't have room to add anything but can probably follow Pau Hana's lead and repurpose some of the existing storage. thank you both for the encouragement to look into this solution further.
 
Greetings,
No hay problema Ms. J. but if ,as you say, there was already a bottle on the sundeck (sorry, I meant sundeck instead of flybridge in my last post), maybe a single bottle locker wouldn't take up much more footprint.
 
There is no requirement to have the bottles in a locker. The standards call for a means to secure the bottle(s) so they won't roll around, protection from the weather (whatever that means), and protection from damage to the valves and fittings.

A simple cover that prevents rain, boarding seas, and other falling objects from reaching the top of the tanks will suffice.

IF a locker is provided, inside the boat or out, then it must meet the ventilation standards.

Beware those who wield little plastic hammers and develop rules in their spare time.
 
RickB said:
There is no requirement to have the bottles in a locker. The standards call for a means to secure the bottle(s) so they won't roll around, protection from the weather (whatever that means), and protection from damage to the valves and fittings.[\QUOTE]

Depends on what you mean by "standards" .. ABYC standards do require a top loading gasketed, dedicated locker with dedicated drainage from the bottom of the locker to outboard of the hull. I'd suggest you take a look at Safe Boat Propane Installations that will show you how to install as safe and ABYC compliant system (your ins. co. will love you)
Click to expand...
 
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boatpoker said:
RickB said:
There is no requirement to have the bottles in a locker. The standards call for a means to secure the bottle(s) so they won't roll around, protection from the weather (whatever that means), and protection from damage to the valves and fittings.
Click to expand...

Depends on what you mean by "standards" .. ABYC standards do require a top loading gasketed, dedicated locker with dedicated drainage from the bottom of the locker to outboard of the hull. I'd suggest you take a look at Safe Boat Propane Installations that will show you how to install as safe and ABYC compliant system (your ins. co. will love you)
Click to expand...

Written like a surveyor! An Internet article by another surveyor is not an ABYC standard. I suggest you read and understand them before telling others what they "require."

Read the ABYC standards, they define how a locker should be constructed when one is used, they do not require a locker be used or installed when the bottles are mounted in such a way that leaking vapors cannot collect or flow into a closed space.
 
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RickB said:
boatpoker said:
Written like a surveyor! An Internet article by another surveyor is not an ABYC standard. I suggest you read and understand them before telling others what they "require."

Read the ABYC standards, they define how a locker should be constructed when one is used, they do not require a locker be used or installed when the bottles are mounted in such a way that leaking vapors cannot collect or flow into a closed space.
Click to expand...

You are quite simply wrong. My ABYC number is 10952 with standards certification, what's yours ?
Click to expand...
 
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boatpoker said:
You are quite simply wrong. My ABYC number is 10952 with standards certification, what's yours ?
Click to expand...

All you have to do is quote the ABYC statement that says a locker is required and/or gas bottles must be in a locker.
 
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RickB said:
boatpoker said:
All you have to do is quote the ABYC statement that says a locker is required and/or gas bottles must be in a locker.
Click to expand...

You did not read far enough ...

1.7.6.1 LPG cylinders, cylinder valves, regulating equipment, and safety devices shall be readily accessible, secured for sea conditions, and protected from the weather and against mechanical damage, and shall be
1.7.6.1.1 installed in a ventilated location on the exterior of the boat where escaping gases will flow directly overboard, or
1.7.6.1.2 if the escaping vapors will not flow directly overboard, the cylinder shall be installed in a dedicated locker meeting the requirements of A-1.8.
Click to expand...
 
boatpoker said:
You did not read far enough ...

1.7.6.1 LPG cylinders, cylinder valves, regulating equipment, and safety devices shall be readily accessible, secured for sea conditions, and protected from the weather and against mechanical damage, and shall be
1.7.6.1.1 installed in a ventilated location on the exterior of the boat where escaping gases will flow directly overboard, or
1.7.6.1.2 if the escaping vapors will not flow directly overboard, the cylinder shall be installed in a dedicated locker meeting the requirements of A-1.8.
Click to expand...

In other words, by your own quote. A locker is NOT required.
 
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Perhaps you should comprehend the code you cite?

1.7.6.1.1 installed in a ventilated location on the exterior of the boat where escaping gases will flow directly overboard, or

What part of that states you MUST be mounted within a cabinet?

I'll give you a hint. The part following the comma ONLY applies if the requirement above can NOT be satisfied.
 
Flow directly "overboard" as defined by ABYC means outside the hull. If you mount your tanks outboard on your stern rail then of course you do not need a locker.
 
Okay, you've softened your stance... a little.

The problem with blanket statements is they tend to put the one making them into a box that is impossible to see their way out of. We can find many boats designed in such a way to easily allow roof top tank installations without a cabinet that would not leak "into" the hull but safely overboard.

FWIW, I completely agree with the ABYC codes you cited. They make perfect sense to me professionally. Where we disagree is in too narrow an interpretation. Lockers designed according to your web link are not required on every installation, only some.
 
He very carefully avoided the "or" between 1.7.6.11 and 1.7.6.1.2 because it shot him off his silly little ABYC certified pony.

This, folks, is a great example of why you should be very careful when one of these guys tells you that you "must" comply with some standard or other that many of them don't know or understand themselves.

The wording of these non binding standards is carefully written to allow a great deal of leeway in complying with the intent. They are not laws and are written to aid manufacturers in producing a safe boat to sell to the public. They do not govern how you operate or outfit your boat and much to their regret, toy boat "surveyors" do not have the right to approve or disapprove a project or technique or installation. Be very careful who you hire, watch him closely, and make him explain and reference anything he finds "not up to standard."

As you have just seen, claiming to hold some certificate is meaningless if the holder is incapable of understanding the standards he professes to uphold.
 
Greetings,
"As you have just seen, claiming to hold some certificate is meaningless if the holder is incapable of understanding the standards he professes to uphold". So just like politicians huh?
 
Pau Hana said:
With all due respect ...
Click to expand...

And with the same due respect, the "argument" is in reference to a thread participant stating that she was told that her openly mounted bottles were not allowed. This statement by a "surveyor" may or may not be correct in her case.

The point being, "surveyors" are frequently wrong, and she should learn which standards apply in what conditions before spending money to comply with what may be nothing more than ill-informed opinion.

Correct information regarding the applicable standard was provided but instantly and rudely refuted by one who claimed to have special knowledge that, as is all too common in the world of small boat surveyors, incorrect. That type of misinformation is costly to the readers of this site.

Between surveyors and insurance salesmen, the boat owner is regularly subject to needless expense caused by lack of knowledge and misinformation posted on sites such as this.

Personally, I think that if one person is saved a few hundred or a few thousand dollars by being provided correct information then it makes this site much more relevant and valuable. I share your opinion of those who post misinformation and attempt to back it up with "certifications" or other claims of insider knowledge that are easily proven wrong. They are the ones you should be concerned about.
 
No, the point is you are the one who brought up Standards and based your statement on one sentence in that Standard. There have ben several mentions of bottles stored under the flying bridge coaming which exposes the tanks to a non-ignition protected enviornment ... non-compliant. Drains from this area will inevitably allow leakage to drain off above deckhouse doors and windows ... non-compliant. Raceways for throttle/shift controls and electrical systems run down to the engine compartment ... non-compliant. There are a number of other issues. I suppose if you started with a clean sheet you may be able to design a compliant boat around a lockerless propane bottle.
 
RickB said:
And with the same due respect, the "argument" is in reference to a thread participant stating that she was told that her openly mounted bottles were not allowed. This statement by a "surveyor" may or may not be correct in her case.

The point being, "surveyors" are frequently wrong, and she should learn which standards apply in what conditions before spending money to comply with what may be nothing more than ill-informed opinion.

Correct information regarding the applicable standard was provided but instantly and rudely refuted by one who claimed to have special knowledge that, as is all too common in the world of small boat surveyors, incorrect. That type of misinformation is costly to the readers of this site.

Between surveyors and insurance salesmen, the boat owner is regularly subject to needless expense caused by lack of knowledge and misinformation posted on sites such as this.

Personally, I think that if one person is saved a few hundred or a few thousand dollars by being provided correct information then it makes this site much more relevant and valuable. I share your opinion of those who post misinformation and attempt to back it up with "certifications" or other claims of insider knowledge that are easily proven wrong. They are the ones you should be concerned about.
Click to expand...

As a professional in the industry (insurance side), I find that too often confusion reigns supreme when:

1) mis-information and dis-information is promulgated by well meaning by folks trying to apply subjective experiences to an objective conversation.

2) the conversation turns into a battle of egos, and the participants are more interested in being right and having the last word than the sharing of information.

I believe the discussions (like the one about the locker requirement ) are valuable for the forum membership UNTIL the egos start flying about.

<SNIP>
MOD NOTE: Reply re-located from previous thread
 
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I must apologize for starting this dispute. Really I didn't remember WHAT the issue was with the propane bottle and my mind made the leap to the locker. Looking at the survey now, that is not what he said at all. Under saftey requirements in the survey he said "this vessel has a LPG cylinder for use with the barbecue. Properly secure the tank and install a solenoid valve to permit the fuel to be shut off without approaching the tank or barbecue, or replace the large tank with small replaceable cylinders." We chose the later approach.
 
Pau Hana said:
As a professional in the industry (insurance side), I find that too often confusion reigns supreme when:

1) mis-information and dis-information is promulgated by well meaning by folks trying to apply subjective experiences to an objective conversation.

2) the conversation turns into a battle of egos, and the participants are more interested in being right and having the last word than the sharing of information.

I believe the discussions (like the one about the locker requirement ) are valuable for the forum membership UNTIL the egos start flying about.

<SNIP>
MOD NOTE: Reply re-located from previous thread
Click to expand...

You are correct, I did take offense from statements by the poster who stated lockers were not required and I reacted inappropriately. My goal was to clarify the standards and I let my temper get in the way.
Let me try one more time to make clear the standard.

As per ABYC ... Yes you can put a tank under the flying bridge coaming or as long as there are no cable of electrical raceways leading inside the vessel and as long as there is no non-ignition protected electrical or electronic fittings in that space and as long as the propane will drain directly overboard and as long as there are no gunnels, ports, hatches, doors or vents below. The same goes for other any other location on or in the vessel.
 
Pineapple Girl said:
I must apologize for starting this dispute.
Click to expand...

Please don't feel badly about this, it has raised some very important issues and illustrates a large problem with surveyor training and boater education. Thank you for bringing this to light, hopefully others will gain from your unfortunate experience with an incompetent surveyor.


Under saftey requirements in the survey he said "this vessel has a LPG cylinder for use with the barbecue. Properly secure the tank and install a solenoid valve to permit the fuel to be shut off without approaching the tank or barbecue, or replace the large tank with small replaceable cylinders." We chose the later approach.
Click to expand...

Again, there is no requirement or standard that calls for such an installation. If you secure the bottle, protect it from "weather" and mechanical damage, you do not need a solenoid or other form of remote shutoff. The tank valve is perfectly adequate.

There is no exception in the LPG standards for the use of "small replaceable cylinders." Your surveyor is ill-informed and was making up rules at your expense as he went along. The only requirement for an outside barbecue is that the bottle have a shutoff that can be operated without reaching over the burner(s), and "be at least 20 inches from any opening to a cabin or the hull interior and be "readily accessible."
 
boatpoker said:
You are correct, I did take offense from statements by the poster who stated lockers were not required and I reacted inappropriately. My goal was to clarify the standards and I let my temper get in the way.
Let me try one more time to make clear the standard.

As per ABYC ... ]


As stated several times previously in this and earlier threads, ABYC is not an enforceable "standard". It is an optional industry guideline for design of new products...nothing more. Referring to ABYC as "the standard" in these forum postings...or in practice...is misleading at best. Application of ABYC to decades old boats is particularly problemmatic when "safety" upgrades are forced on boat owners via the insurance companies. I have spoken with SAMS/NAMS about this in the past, and shall do so again. As stated earlier, owners beware. Interview potential surveyors before hiring. If a surveyor speaks of non-compliance with ABYC, I send that person packing. The more of you who roll over on insurance survey recommended upgrades stemming from ABYC "standards", the more pervasive and expensive this problem will become for everyone.
Click to expand...
 
Greetings,
Thank you Mr. skidgear for that comment. I have mentioned the subject of ABYC "standards" on several threads and the response has generally been that the insurance industry requires compliance based on a "surveyors" recommendations. I fully understand companies not wanting to underwrite a bad risk but to be held ransom by an "accredited surveyor" who's own knowledge and interpretation of the "standards" could be less than ideal, just rubs me the wrong way.
I have been quite fortunate in getting what I consider "good" surveys but I know of a few people who did not fare as well. I'm sure everyone has at least one story
I had to bite my tongue several time during my recent insurance survey and I addressed several items that were found to be in "violation" (my word, NOT the surveyors).
I put a propane stove, associated plumbing and tanks on board last year and when the fellow examined the installation he said it was fine. Now on reading the regulations, it seems I'm NOT in compliance. The locker is not gasketed and it drains onto the side deck (inboard, as Mr. boatpoker describes). Is it unsafe? Not to my mind.
Just re-read my survey. Propane system/installation was not even mentioned and for that matter, after reading, I'm not even sure of this is a survey of my boat! The main point is my insurance was renewed and I think I'm fine for another 10 years (was told survey interval is no longer 5 years).
 
It's actually all rather irrlevant since the ABYC standards are ABYC standards, not anybody's law. According to the ABYC, just about every Grand Banks boat on the planet is not compliant because the propane "locker" on the flying bridge is simply the space under one of the flying bridge seats that has a vent to the outside of the boat. There is no "gasketed lid" or anything else. The boats were built this way and I have never heard of a surveyor writing one up for this. It has never even come up in all the years I have been participating on the GB owners forum.

A very popular place for GB owners (and the owners of many other types of boats) to mount a BBQ and its tank is on the handrail on top of the aft cabin that surrounds the walkway to the flying bridge. The bottles are never put in lockers but are simply installed in brackets that hold the bottles securely to the rail. Any propane leaking from the bottle or the BBQ will flow down to the deck and thus overboard. And I have never seen an installation like this where there was any sort of remote solenoid shutoff valve in the line. Our BBQ is mounted on the flying bridge rail, the bottle is in a rail-mounted bracket beside it, and there is no valve in the line between the two. In all the surveys we have had since owning the boat this setup has never been questioned or even commented on.

I have never heard of a surveyor writing up an installation like this. Most of the GBs in the big charter fleet in our marina have their BBQs and bottles mounted this way. No problems there, either.

So while the internet armchair crowd can debate the meaning of the word "it" and "or," in the real world it seems that as long as common sense is used in the installation of a propane bottle, nobody really cares about the committee wording.
 
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I have been sitting back watching this unfold.

Here is what happens when a surveyor puts something in that is pure bogus. This is fact and not something that was told to me over a drink at the bar.

When I bought my 1990 Hunter 40' sailboat it was in South FL. The boat looked good so I didn't expect to have any problems with the survey. For the most part I did not, except for one particular section which is related to the topic we are on. During the late 80's and early 90's Hunter Marine had embarked on using CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) for the stove and oven. The idea is that CNG is lighter than air and will escape up and out of the boat, not settle in the bilge like Propane does. This went by way of the Dodo bird not because it wasn't a good idea but because once you leave the US most folks can't spell CNG least of all know where to get any. To be quite honest it was a bit of a pain here in the US as well but I had three tanks and they lasted about a year each so I could bring the empty back to Raleigh and get it filled at my leisure.

So the survey comes back and the surveyor writes up about twelve things. One stanchion had a weld crack, the coating was pealing off of some of the life lines, no Grd Fault plugs in the heads and galley and the biggie was there was no electric solenoid shut off system for the CNG tank. So my insurance company was happy to move forward with my assurance that it will all be repaired in the next 3 months.

The problem turns out that no such system is made for CNG. There never has been. So I called the surveyor and asked him to correct the survey and he told me that it was an ABYC code violation he wanted it fixed and that was all there was to it, he would not change his survey. He said to just get the Trident propane system and install it. So I called Trident. They informed me there was no CNG system and one had never ever been made. They did not recommend the propane system because it was not designed for CNG. They said that the way it was was perfectly fine as long as all of the hoses were not leaking nor chafed. Which they all were in good shape.

I fixed the stanchion, put in a couple of Grd fault plugs and never did any more. Luckily the insurance company never asked for proof of repairs and I sold the boat five years later with a fresh survey that never mentioned any such shut off system.

So yes their mistakes and opinions can get folks into a lot of extra expense for some whim or misinformation on their part.
 
Marin said:
So while the internet armchair crowd can debate the meaning of the word "it" and "or," in the real world it seems that as long as common sense is used in the installation of a propane bottle, nobody really cares about the committee wording.
Click to expand...

Haha! So a certified surveyor and a guy who works in the boating industry are "the internet armchair crowd." That's rich Marin! :thumb:
 
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