Complete water supply system overview

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

sndog

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2022
Messages
203
As my other threads have stated, I am doing a complete refit on my boat before a rather long voyage.

Attached is a system overview, a mid-level look, at the water system that will be put together, and would love everyone's input.

All lines are 1/2", Uponor, Pex A, with expansion fittings.
Heat exchangers are 220k BTU/Hr industrial, plate exchanger.

There will be a follow-up in the next day or two with the plumbing waste system design. But for now, this is for water supply side.

I designed it myself, so I am sure there are multiple issues with it, as I am not a plumber, and not a professional at this at all. Have actually never dealt with these systems before outside of changing a pressure pump.

As always, thank you in advance.
 

Attachments

  • Picture10.jpg
    Picture10.jpg
    62.6 KB · Views: 136
This may be more clear
 

Attachments

  • Plumbing overview 11.28.22.pdf
    142.9 KB · Views: 150
Holy crap, I am glad my boats plumbing system isn’t that complex. You will be good with pex by the time you are done…
 
I count close to 50 ball valves (!!!!), plus the valves on the Pex manifolds.

  • Is 7x30-gal water tanks correct? I assume you've worked out vents for these?
  • Also, the dock water goes into each of the 30-gal tanks. How does this work without pressurizing the tanks?
  • Looks like you have three checkvalves (circle with X)? If so, you probably don't need ball valves on either side.
  • Maybe I missed it, but I can't see a cold-water feed to the "Expansion Tank" and "Water Heater" on the center-left side of drawing.
  • You will want to use 3/4" Pex to the manifolds

Overall, it looks really complicated to me, but maybe that's just the way it is. You have four sources of hot water; the aforementioned ~50-ish valves, all running of 210-gals of water which seems pretty puny for a boat with dishwasher, W/D, etc.

Peter
 
Last edited:
Is this your Christmas present to the forum? It should be good for close to 1000 posts !
 
This may be more clear

Surprisingly yes. It also helps that there are 2 pex manifolds in different sections of the boat.


Ummm... what boat? Cruise ship?

I can't really read it well, but it looks like 10x more complicated than what we've got... Four shower heads in the midship bath?

FWIW, ours seems to daisy chain long runs to semi-common areas, then splits in the target vicinity. For example, one long cold run to the master head, split there to toilet, sink, and shower. Another example, one long run to galley sink, split there to galley freezer (icemaker), bridge sink, and bridge icemaker. Et cetera. And we only have one major manifold, two in, 14 out.

-Chris
 
Last edited:
Did I miss a black friday sale on 30 gallon tanks and ball valves?
 
I count close to 50 ball valves (!!!!), plus the valves on the Pex manifolds.

  • Is 7x30-gal water tanks correct? I assume you've worked out vents for these?
  • Also, the dock water goes into each of the 30-gal tanks. How does this work without pressurizing the tanks?
  • Looks like you have three checkvalves (circle with X)? If so, you probably don't need ball valves on either side.
  • Maybe I missed it, but I can't see a cold-water feed to the "Expansion Tank" and "Water Heater" on the center-left side of drawing.
  • You will want to use 3/4" Pex to the manifolds

Overall, it looks really complicated to me, but maybe that's just the way it is. You have four sources of hot water; the aforementioned ~50-ish valves, all running of 210-gals of water which seems pretty puny for a boat with dishwasher, W/D, etc.

Peter


Yes, the 7 tanks of 30 gallons each is correct. They go side by side, and trying to maneuver larger tanks to where they go would have been....challenging to say the least. It is not ideal, but works for the situation I have.

For filling a tank, the dock line goes into a manifold, and then goes out to each individual tank. It is not sealed, as it is similar to a camper tank water fill line.

For the expansion tank, my understanding is there is just one line in/out. Not one for in and one for out.

The check valves were put in place for keeping water moving in the correct direction. Many of the ball valves are used to isolate sections of the system in case an issue arises.

It is somewhat complicated as a whole, but I went about designing each system to meet the needs and then put each subsystem together.
 
If there is anyone that can tell me how to convert autcad to jpg with high resolution, please let me know and I will repost the image
 
Is this your Christmas present to the forum? It should be good for close to 1000 posts !


Well, hopefully not that many, and hopefully, I will learn lots more. I am by no means anything close to an expert. More like a novice who slept at a holiday inn.:whistling:
 
Ummm... what boat? Cruise ship?

I can't really read it well, but it looks like 10x more complicated than what we've got... Four shower heads in the midship bath?

FWIW, ours seems to daisy chain long runs to semi-common areas, then splits in the target vicinity. For example, one long cold run to the master head, split there to toilet, sink, and shower. Another example, one long run to galley sink, split there to galley freezer (icemaker), bridge sink, and bridge icemaker. Et cetera. And we only have one major manifold, two in, 14 out.

-Chris

Just my boat, no cruise ship.

And yes mid-ship bath is a bit excessive, but figured if it is being completely redone, why not.

It is being controlled by a Moen U s3104 4 output shower controller. There are two shower heads, one handheld wand, and a bench with 3 shower heads above it.

I realize it is excessive, but thought it would be a nice treat.

I looked at daisy chaining things as well, as that is the way it was but thought if there is any issue, then the whole daisy chain has to be shut down till fixed. And since it was being redone (had the old grey piping that had issues) why not go to a central point so if there is an issue, easy to shut off just that fixture. Does not cost a lot more to do at this point.

The runs to the galley sink, galley fridge ice maker, opal ice maker, etc, are not very long runs at all, and all the ice makers, and filtered water taps, run 3/8" lines off a water filter unit.
 
I would couple the tanks together with 1-1/2" fittings to form one or two tanks.

Check valves make sense. The plethora of ball valves do not. You won't need to isolate the system - just turn off pump.

You've run "home-runs" from PEX manifold to all outlets. I realize that's the cool setup these days in residential construction, but you may want to consider daisy-chaining some items. You have over 20 1/2" PEX tubes coming from the larger of the two manifolds. That's a large bundle. Every cabinet will have red/blue hoses running in the back.

Surprised you only have a 5.5kw generator. Will that be sufficient?

Right now, you have five (5) ways to heat water. Suggest reconsider using a traditional marine water heater with integral engine-loop heat exchanger. The Isotemp units get excellent reviews and would dramatically simplify your setup, and you could always expand later. If you put a lower wattage heating element in, you could support via solar and not have to load-scramble too much.

20-gal accumulator tank is way over-sized. 2-gal is already pretty big.

With 4 shower heads in your bathroom (sorry, I can't call anything with 4 showerheads a "Head"), you are going to need a pretty large watermaker. Which may drive a larger generator than 5.5kw.

I can't wait to see the HVAC diagram.....

Peter

BTW - the PDF worked fine for me, at least on PC. Not readable on a small device.
 
If there is anyone that can tell me how to convert autcad to jpg with high resolution, please let me know and I will repost the image

I haven’t drawn in CAD for many years but I recall doing that fairly often. Can you “print to” pdf as an option on the software version you are in?
 
I haven’t drawn in CAD for many years but I recall doing that fairly often. Can you “print to” pdf as an option on the software version you are in?

I can print to PDF, the resolution is good. But when I convert, there appears to be a large loss in quality. :nonono:
 
Complicated yes! I do understand where the OP is coming from. The system he has designed is a Cadillac not a Chevy.

The system allows him to not loose functionality in all areas due to a malfunction in just one area. It also makes maintenance quicker by being able to isolate a malfunctioning area. Lastly, this system should not suffer sudden temperature fluctuations from multiple changing water usages.

If he has the room and is willing to spend the money then making it simpler is not really an advantage.

I would label the hoses in every compartment for future maintenance simplicity.

This is too much work and complexity for me but you are not me so I won't judge.
 
Lot's of comments already so sorry if I repeat.


- I don't think it's complicated at all, just extensive. No problem with that if it's what fills the need.


- I think the central manifolds with home run plumbing is the ideal, and if you have space for the PEX tubing for all of it, that's great.


- I'm familiar with the Varga manifolds for heating system. Just be sure they are rated for drinking water, e.g. lead free.


- I think you said all the tanks are side by side? That will be important to ensure they fill in tandem, and drain in tandem. Each tank will need to be individually vented. They could go to a common vent, but be absolutely certain that there are no droops or low points in the vent lines. Otherwise when you overfill the tanks, which at some point you will surely will, and the water all comes out the vents, you can't end up with a water trap in any of the vent lines. Otherwise the unvented tank will never fill properly.


- I assume you will normally leave the valves open joining the tank draw lines? That will allow it to act as one large tank rather than 7 small tanks.


- I agree that 210 gal is very light, but if that's all you can fit, so be it. Just be sure your watermaker is in good shape or you are near to docks with good water.


- I think in most cases you will want all the valves open from both the fill manifolds so that all tanks fill more or less together. To make it easier to turn the dock water feed to teh manifold on adn off, I'd put a valve on the feed line. Then in normal operation you will only have one valve to operate to fill the tanks from dock water, and one to shut off if you want to run directly off dock water.


- I don't think you need a check valve coming from the watermaker. I would only do that if the watermaker installation instructions specifically call for it. Most of the watermakers I've dealt with want no restrictions between the WM and the tanks.


- I would put the check valve on the other side of the accumulator. Otherwise it can't absorb expansion and contraction in the core of the water system. It also allows the accumulator will be operative when on dock water. That part isn't essential, but will aid in quick flow demand changes


- I would put a pressure regulator on the dock water inlet. I have seen docks with over 100 psi of water pressure. So much that it blows out hoses. You don't want any chance of over-pressurizing the system in the boat. In fact, a lot of people recommend against a direct dock water connection for just this reason, and because if something does fail it could flood and sink the boat. Without a dockwater connection, the most water that could leak into the boat is your water tank capacity.


- You are missing a cold water connection feeding the hw heater.


- You should install a tempering valve on the HW heater outlet.


- The thermostatic valves don't make sense as drawn. I think you intend each to open/close based on temp of the associated heat exchanger? And I'm not following the intended flow of water through the HW heater and heat exchangers. Is there a circulating pump somewhere?


- Check to be sure you can get an ABYC compliant tankless propane water heater. Historically they don't exist, but that may have changed.


- Will the boat have diesel heat? If so your look at tying that in


- If you move the check valve by the accumulator then you won't need a second expansion tank for the HW heater. The other check valves are probably not needed either, and may cause over pressure issues, but it's hard to say until I undersand how that part of the system in intended to work.


- Consider using one of the unused ports on your water manifolds for a compressed air inlet. That will make it really easy to blow out any outside fixtures when the weather gets cold.


- Since you are starting from scratch, consider installing a hw recirculator to get more or less instant hot water at the taps. You could only do it as far as the distribution manifolds, and that may or may not be enough given how everything lays out. You can run the pump continuously, put it on a time-of-day timer, or run it on demand. I prefer the on demand approach to save power and heat loss. We have call buttons in the bathrooms, galley, etc. One press turns the pump on for a few minutes. A few seconds later, you can turn on the faucet and have hot water. With your small tanks, this will help a lot vs running the tap for a long time waiting for hot water. These can be deceptively tricky to do, but I can likely help if you want to go down that path.


- I strongly recommend insulating the HW PEX if space will permit. I have had a couple of boats and houses where there was cross heating of the cold water lines. Instead of having to run the water for a long time waiting for hot water, you had to run it a long time to get cold water. Wasting water like that on a boat isn't good.
- I assume the Vega manifold outlets are all valved?
 
The system allows him to not loose functionality in all areas due to a malfunction in just one area. It also makes maintenance quicker by being able to isolate a malfunctioning area.

Just curious, when was the last time your plumbing system malfunctioned that wasn't due to either the pump or a leaky fitting? What else is there? OP put it out there for comment. Tribe has spoken on complexity. Up to the OP whether the input makes sense to him

The chances of me turning the correct valve when there over 50 of them scattered throughout the boat is akin to chance of my hooking up with Jennifer Aniston

Peter .
 
I would couple the tanks together with 1-1/2" fittings to form one or two tanks.

Check valves make sense. The plethora of ball valves do not. You won't need to isolate the system - just turn off pump.

You've run "home-runs" from PEX manifold to all outlets. I realize that's the cool setup these days in residential construction, but you may want to consider daisy-chaining some items. You have over 20 1/2" PEX tubes coming from the larger of the two manifolds. That's a large bundle. Every cabinet will have red/blue hoses running in the back.

Surprised you only have a 5.5kw generator. Will that be sufficient?

Right now, you have five (5) ways to heat water. Suggest reconsider using a traditional marine water heater with integral engine-loop heat exchanger. The Isotemp units get excellent reviews and would dramatically simplify your setup, and you could always expand later. If you put a lower wattage heating element in, you could support via solar and not have to load-scramble too much.

20-gal accumulator tank is way over-sized. 2-gal is already pretty big.

With 4 shower heads in your bathroom (sorry, I can't call anything with 4 showerheads a "Head"), you are going to need a pretty large watermaker. Which may drive a larger generator than 5.5kw.

I can't wait to see the HVAC diagram.....

Peter

BTW - the PDF worked fine for me, at least on PC. Not readable on a small device.

I may consider daisy-chaining some but will look as it goes into the boat.

I have a 5.5kw and a 33kw generator.

For the different ways to heat the water. I thought about using the marine water heater with an engine loop. And still may. Thought the heat exchangers I like as it is an instant hot water heater, that consumes no fuel, as long as one of the 3 engines (total of 4) is running or has been run. The tankless propane is an afterthought, and not completely sold on that one yet.

Why is a 2-gallon accumulator tank good? I am just curious.

The HVAC diagram is so much simpler. 6 self-contained units. Two water pumps, one for each set of 3 coming off a sea-chest.

Electrical is the really wonky one, as that has a 100kwh house bank, 12kwh high output batteries for the thrusters, 20kw of inverter, and 9kw of solar.

As everything is put in, and I will update with photos.
 
With that much solar and battery, I suspect you can get by with an electric water heater, perhaps with a reduced wattage heater. Simi60 has mentioned his setup a bunch. Given your climate - Houston to SoCal, at least for first few years, not having endless hot water may not be a bother for you. Running a vent for a tankless water heater would be big - I wonder if ABYC would allow one hung on an outside wall.

Accumulator tank. Bigger is better, but there's a point of diminishing returns. One at my cabin with well is probably 20 gals, but I have a mac-daddy submerged pump so water-hammer is a problem. On boats, you're just trying to regulate flow so it doesn't pulsate. It doesn't take much. But I'm far from an expert, but 20 gals sounds like a lot. If I had room for 20 gals of anything, would either be wine, beer, or gasoline for an outboard.

The home-run PEX runs are cool, but I really think you'll get equivalent performance but running 3/4" mostly daisy chained (or zones) with 1/2" drops to faucets.

You have an enormous amount of solar and battery storage. As discussed in an earlier thread, I suspect you can build an incredibly satisfying system based on that to do almost everything you want, exception being AC. I'd really consider am electric water heater, preferably with an engine heater loop.

Peter
 
Lot's of comments already so sorry if I repeat.


- I don't think it's complicated at all, just extensive. No problem with that if it's what fills the need.


- I think the central manifolds with home run plumbing is the ideal, and if you have space for the PEX tubing for all of it, that's great.


- I'm familiar with the Varga manifolds for heating system. Just be sure they are rated for drinking water, e.g. lead free.


- I think you said all the tanks are side by side? That will be important to ensure they fill in tandem, and drain in tandem. Each tank will need to be individually vented. They could go to a common vent, but be absolutely certain that there are no droops or low points in the vent lines. Otherwise when you overfill the tanks, which at some point you will surely will, and the water all comes out the vents, you can't end up with a water trap in any of the vent lines. Otherwise the unvented tank will never fill properly.


- I assume you will normally leave the valves open joining the tank draw lines? That will allow it to act as one large tank rather than 7 small tanks.


- I agree that 210 gal is very light, but if that's all you can fit, so be it. Just be sure your watermaker is in good shape or you are near to docks with good water.


- I think in most cases you will want all the valves open from both the fill manifolds so that all tanks fill more or less together. To make it easier to turn the dock water feed to teh manifold on adn off, I'd put a valve on the feed line. Then in normal operation you will only have one valve to operate to fill the tanks from dock water, and one to shut off if you want to run directly off dock water.


- I don't think you need a check valve coming from the watermaker. I would only do that if the watermaker installation instructions specifically call for it. Most of the watermakers I've dealt with want no restrictions between the WM and the tanks.


- I would put the check valve on the other side of the accumulator. Otherwise it can't absorb expansion and contraction in the core of the water system. It also allows the accumulator will be operative when on dock water. That part isn't essential, but will aid in quick flow demand changes


- I would put a pressure regulator on the dock water inlet. I have seen docks with over 100 psi of water pressure. So much that it blows out hoses. You don't want any chance of over-pressurizing the system in the boat. In fact, a lot of people recommend against a direct dock water connection for just this reason, and because if something does fail it could flood and sink the boat. Without a dockwater connection, the most water that could leak into the boat is your water tank capacity.


- You are missing a cold water connection feeding the hw heater.


- You should install a tempering valve on the HW heater outlet.


- The thermostatic valves don't make sense as drawn. I think you intend each to open/close based on temp of the associated heat exchanger? And I'm not following the intended flow of water through the HW heater and heat exchangers. Is there a circulating pump somewhere?


- Check to be sure you can get an ABYC compliant tankless propane water heater. Historically they don't exist, but that may have changed.


- Will the boat have diesel heat? If so your look at tying that in


- If you move the check valve by the accumulator then you won't need a second expansion tank for the HW heater. The other check valves are probably not needed either, and may cause over pressure issues, but it's hard to say until I undersand how that part of the system in intended to work.


- Consider using one of the unused ports on your water manifolds for a compressed air inlet. That will make it really easy to blow out any outside fixtures when the weather gets cold.


- Since you are starting from scratch, consider installing a hw recirculator to get more or less instant hot water at the taps. You could only do it as far as the distribution manifolds, and that bmay or may not be enough given how everything lays out. You can run the pump continuously, put it on a time-of-day timer, or run it on demand. I prefer the on demand approach to save power and heat loss. We have call buttons in the bathrooms, galley, etc. One press turns the pump on for a few minutes. A few seconds later, you can turn on the faucet and have hot water. With your small tanks, this will help a lot vs running the tap for a long time waiting for hot water. These can be deceptively tricky to do, but I can likely help if you want to go down that path.


- I strongly recommend insulating the HW PEX if space will permit. I have had a couple of boats and houses where there was cross heating of the cold water lines. Instead of having to run the water for a long time waiting for hot water, you had to run it a long time to get cold water. Wasting water like that on a boat isn't good.
- I assume the Vega manifold outlets are all valved?


The manifolds are Viega manabloc manifolds. Wish they would have expnsion fittings, but only crimp :(

All the tanks are side by side and same height etc. So easy to treat them equally and as one tank. All valves will be open to them, and it will work into filling and usage as one tank.

I wish I could fit more tanks, but I cannot. The water maker is of good quality and size. It is a sea recovery unit. I could put tanks elsewhere for more, but at that point, it is extra space, complexity etc for just a little bit more of a reward, so I ruled it out.

I put the check valve on the water maker so that the rest of the system would not force into the water maker. Did not know if it needed it or not.

The water fill would not be a pressurized system. It is just a deck valve which you can put a hose into. and it is open, so no pressure build-up. I do not want to keep a hose pressurized in the system at the dock. I have heard horror stories from it, and figured it best not to do that.

I will check out what tempering valve is, as I have never heard of one.

The thermostatic valves are essentially three in series. The heat exchanger goes into them. I know I can get away with one, but I figured having three is extra redundancy, and safety, to make sure no scolding water gets into the system.

The heat exchangers valves are designed to allow just one to be used. It is done as such as each engine for propulsion has one, and one of the 5.5kw Genset. I figured those would be the three most likely to be running.

All of the ball valves, I know seems a bit much, but the vast majority will be in a select few areas, essentially viewing them as on a board. All of the valves for the heat exchangers and thermostatic valves will be in one area. For water tanks in one area, etc.

The tankless water heater would be outside if it is used at all. It will end up being put in towards the end after everything is tested, and I hope I will not need to install to be very frank.

The compressed air inlet is an incredible idea!!!! I will be glad to do so, as it really will make my life substantially easy. Especially since I am permanently installing a compressor onboard.

For moving the check valve, let me look at it and come back with something for additional input from you.

No diesel heat onboard. I was looking at a tankless diesel water heater, but it is a lot of cost for not much gain. And heat interior-wise, the 6 self-contained units I figure are good enough. Diesel would be nice, but would add more complexity. And since its intended grounds are normally so-cal, not tons of use.

The HW recirculator is a slick idea as well, especially with a button to control it. Would love to get more input on this.

Did not think about insulating pex hot lines. Though I think that is another great idea!

I have also attached a photo of one of the manifolds I am using.
 

Attachments

  • 51CBeitddAL._AC_.jpg
    51CBeitddAL._AC_.jpg
    32 KB · Views: 25
One thought. You might wat to consider a main larger line say 1 1/4 pex with 1/2 t's off the main. Start with a ball valve for isolation of an area. This will save you a tone of labor.
The system you have designed is great . It is more for an application where everything is being used at once, like a hotel. It will certainly work. Its just overkill.
 
These manifolds are a residential application. They are designed to run a home run to all areas of the house. Pex 1/2 pip is only 3/8 on the inside. Smaller than 1/2 copper. They do this because it is cheaper than running a larger main line like in the old copper systems of 2 3/4 mains thought the house and 1/2 taps to each area.

In a boat it would make more sense to run a larger main line 1 - 1/4 pex with 1/2 taps off to each service unit. start each tap with a ball valve for service isolation.
 
If you want to use the manifold system that's fine. Even in a home with a manifold, You do not run an independent line to each device. You run a line to the kitchen, one to the master, hall bath, Etc you pick up all the devices in each area off the line supplying it. The lines are varied in size , hall baths 1/2 , master with large tub 3/4 supply etc.

Quick check it would cut you from 13 supply lines down to about 6. If all uses hot and cold takes you from 26 pipes to 12.

A proper manifold system would as per your diagram would be something like
Aft deck
Gally
gally 2 Optional second for filtered water
aft Bathroom
Engine room
Flybridge
forward washdown

This would give you good isolation for an area.

A expansion tank ( residential Application ) is the same thing as an accumulator. In residential well system you do not use a hot water heater expansion tank with an accumulator. You are basically installing a well system in your boat. Simply move your pressure in line and check valve to right before the accumulator tank .

As for filling the tanks you can cut the piping and valving in 1/2 Both the deck fill and the water maker should go into a fill manifold.
 
How big a boat? How many people? Planned water budget for 24 hrs? What will your peak water flows in each line? Water flow rate, length, number of bends and valves sizes lines (pressure drop calculation). What components will be operating at the same time (total flow rate required)? A larger accumulator is ok if you have the space results if less pump cycles.
Seems very complicated. Hotter tanks can be run at temps above 120 F if you have a mixing valve to control temps to a delivery temp of 120. Makes for more hot water with a smaller hot water tank.
Do you have another drawing showing all of the drain lines, black water and grey water tanks. Electrical power drawing? Number of thru hulls and overboard drains. Controlling 7 small tanks as they pump down will be a pain if you do it individually. Filling will be difficult and could take some time.
What does the mid and aft galley maid pump do. They only have a cold water supply. Just some general comments.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom