Anchor chain selection and Windlass gypsy info

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sndog

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On my boat, I have two Fortress FX-85's. It is 65' and classified as 100tons, but I believe it is close to 50 to 60 tons according to a travel lift.

Currently, it has two anchor rodes of about 5' each. yes 5', no 0's missed.

The anchor rode is 3/8. I am looking to see if that is sufficient still for this boat, or is it better to upgrade to 1/2". The previous owner had plans to use 1.25" nylon rope. He wanted to put 1000ft so he can go out to the gulf and anchor.

Looking at going all chain. 300~400 ft per anchor. The boat was originally equipped with anchors that came out of the side of the bow and the anchor locker was converted into a bunk room. So the weight of the chain is of minimal concern.

I am figuring chain overall is a much better use for this size vessel.

Wondering the experts in this forums input about going to all chain, should I stick with 3/8" or go to 1/2"

Also, I have inlcuded some photos of the windlass in hopes of identifying make and model so I can buy new gypsys for it, if necessary. It is currently equipped with a 3/8" gypsy on each side. My foot is on the motor section in one photo for scale, it is a size 11.

Also, if you know the model, would love the exploded parts diagram as I would love to disassemble, clean, prep, lube, and paint it, so it is like new.

Thank you in advance.
 

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Perhaps a Lofrens windless?


3/8" seems undersized, even if it's G4 chain. I'd be looking for 1/2". I'm not sure what Gulf you are referring to, but if you think you will ever be anchoring in deep water I'd go for no less than 400', and preferably 600'.


Make sure you can get the required Gypsie. It might be hard for an older, and perhaps uncommon brand windless.
 
Apologies for the confusion. I will not be anchoring in the gulf. It will be islands, Houston, Key West, Miami, Bahamas, Turks, DR, ABCs, Roatan, Panama, the West side of Mexico to the West Coast of the US. Then just hanging out on the West coast.

Everything on the boat appears to be Vetus, so I would assume the windlass is a brand name as well. I just do not know where to look for it.
 
Just for info. "Classified as 100 Tons". Is that on the USCG Document? That Tonnage is a measure of watertight volume or cargo capacity, it has nothing to do with weight or displacement. And it can be very misleading, I've seen identical boats with grossly different tonnages. Different people do the measurements, they get very different answers. 50-60 tons actual weight or displacement makes sense, and has nothing to do with measured Tonnage.
 
Can it take a bigger than 1/2 chainwheel?

We run 13mm chain, slightly larger than 1/2 inch on our vessel and have deformed it on two occassions.

If I could get a chainwheel to suit 16mm to suit our windlass I would be using that but alas, it's not to be.

Next lot of chain we get will be P rated
 
Looks very similar in construction to the vetus condor on my boat, but it’s bigger and has the vertical capstan instead of the cast-in cleat. Motor cover is same shape too.
I’d bet vetus. Don’t know the model.
 
The closest one I have been able to find is the lofrans titan windlass
 
If it is the Titan, it looks like it will take a gypsy for 12mm or 14mm
 
sndog said:
On my boat, I have two Fortress FX-85's.

Currently, it has two anchor rodes of about 5' each. yes 5', no 0's missed.

The anchor rode is 3/8. I am looking to see if that is sufficient still for this boat, or is it better to upgrade to 1/2". The previous owner had plans to use 1.25" nylon rope. He wanted to put 1000ft so he can go out to the gulf and anchor.

Looking at going all chain. 300~400 ft per anchor.
Click to expand...


Two anchors of the same style seems odd; think I'd have a Fortress and something else. (Typical anchor thread response.)

3/8" might be OK.

Might be a compromise chain size between 3/8" and 1/2" -- 7/16" -- available. Still would depend on whether you can match with gypsies. (And your 3/8" chain still might be OK.)

Chain is typically sold in barrels and half barrels, etc., with X feet of Y size in each barrel or half barrel. (See Defender's offerings, for example.) Once you home in on chain size, you could buy a barrel or a half barrel, then splice on a boatload of 8-plait for even deeper water. Or for emergency back-up rode in case you have to jettison one chain...

-Chris
 
Chain is typically sold in barrels and half barrels, etc., with X feet of Y size in each barrel or half barrel. (See Defender's offerings, for example.) Once you home in on chain size, you could buy a barrel or a half barrel, then splice on a boatload of 8-plait for even deeper water. Or for emergency back-up rode in case you have to jettison one chain...

-Chris

What Chris said!

Rob
 
While I would agree that 1/2" might be a better choice, it's really good to to have a more definitive definition of your boat. If it's not a common make and model, posting a picture with length, beam, and draft would be helpful. Some boats have much more surface area to be effected by wind. Other boats that are longer in length (for the same displacement) may be more stream lined with a lower profile, providing less wind resistance and maybe less wave resistance.

Ted
 
I second Chris' thought above about having two different types of anchors. The Fortress is great, 90% of the time, but I have had problems getting them to set on hard bottoms. Also the twin flukes can foul the chain in a reversing current anchorage (Jewell Island in Maine) and you end up with a blob of chain on the end and not an anchor.

I would look for a heavy, new design single fluke anchor, like a 100 lb Rocna, Manson Supreme, Spade, etc.

Also I like my rode's weight handling capability to match the anchor's holding power. A 100 lb Rocna should hold up to 10,000 lbs if well set. That means 1/2" G4 for a 9,200 wll.

David
 
O C Diver said:
While I would agree that 1/2" might be a better choice, it's really good to to have a more definitive definition of your boat. If it's not a common make and model, posting a picture with length, beam, and draft would be helpful. Some boats have much more surface area to be effected by wind. Other boats that are longer in length (for the same displacement) may be more stream lined with a lower profile, providing less wind resistance and maybe less wave resistance.

Ted
Click to expand...


It is 65', but will be 69'9" after the swim platform is added. 19' beam, 6' draft.

I have enclosed two photos of it as it is not a common make and model.
 

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DavidM said:
I second Chris' thought above about having two different types of anchors. The Fortress is great, 90% of the time, but I have had problems getting them to set on hard bottoms. Also the twin flukes can foul the chain in a reversing current anchorage (Jewell Island in Maine) and you end up with a blob of chain on the end and not an anchor.

I would look for a heavy, new design single fluke anchor, like a 100 lb Rocna, Manson Supreme, Spade, etc.

Also I like my rode's weight handling capability to match the anchor's holding power. A 100 lb Rocna should hold up to 10,000 lbs if well set. That means 1/2" G4 for a 9,200 wll.

David
Click to expand...


Would a mantus work as well?

Thinking maybe leave the two Fortress for equal appearance, but then put one of the recommended ones on a 30' chain, coupled with 1.25" nylon rope.
 
sndog said:
It is 65', but will be 69'9" after the swim platform is added. 19' beam, 6' draft.

I have enclosed two photos of it as it is not a common make and model.
Click to expand...

Couldn't imagine less than 1/2" if you're anchoring in the ocean, sea, or gulf. 3/8" would be a protected waters rode. I would recommend talking with members on this forum (Twistedtree comes to mind) who have vessels of this size.

Ted
 
Datenight said:
Chain is typically sold in barrels and half barrels, etc., with X feet of Y size in each barrel or half barrel. (See Defender's offerings, for example.) Once you home in on chain size, you could buy a barrel or a half barrel...

Rob
Click to expand...
Be aware, the barrel will be heavy, so plan ahead. The delivery guy has to bring and unload it, I suggest direct to the marina. Then you have to get it along the marina to the boat, and load it onto the boat. The windlass on the boat can do the latter.
 
BruceK said:
Be aware, the barrel will be heavy, so plan ahead. The delivery guy has to bring and unload it, I suggest direct to the marina. Then you have to get it along the marina to the boat, and load it onto the boat. The windlass on the boat can do the latter.
Click to expand...

The chain will be delivered to a shipyard with a forklift capacity. It will also be put into the boat when it is back on the hard, and definitely use the windlass for that. I like my arms, and shoulders, more than the abuse loading that much chain would do to them
 
sndog said:
Would a mantus work as well?



Thinking maybe leave the two Fortress for equal appearance, but then put one of the recommended ones on a 30' chain, coupled with 1.25" nylon rope.
Click to expand...
S/V Panope has been doing anchor tests for a while. Here's his review of the Mantus M2 20 kg. Based on Panope tests last year showing flaws, Mantus apparently made modifications of the design to improve holding. Below is a screenshot of the current stack rankings of anchors Panope has tested. Mantus shows fairly well. Big benefit is it can be disassembled, though not sure that's important for your use case


https://youtu.be/hHieSDi8oqY

Note that Mantus is running a 20% discount sale through tomorrow, Nov 28th.

https://www.mantusmarine.com/?_vsrefdom=googleads&msclkid=28a32cb4d69111a09e5f4f30fba46b98

If I read your post correctly, you are considering running two Fortress anchors on your bow for symmetric aesthetic reasons. To be blunt, running two identical anchors will send the exact opposite message of what you want. Folks run dual anchors to accommodate differing bottoms; and/or to run a working anchor and a storm anchor. Running two identical anchors makes little sense.

I see you're in Newport Beach CA. Fortress is not a common primary anchor in those waters. Fortress is a good backup anchor.

30-feet of chain on a 65-foot boat is woefully undersized except for a lunch hook. Fine if you just plan to putt around Newport harbor.

If you plan to head to the Channel Islands to some of the great anchorages out there, you really need robust ground tackle for a working anchor. Given the height of your bow, I'd run at least 250-feet of 1/2" chain and the largest Vulcan (or similar) you can fit in your bow roller. This would be your working anchor, not your storm anchor.

If your plan is to head through Panama Canal and explore both sides you really need a more robust anchor setup than you're contemplating - a storm anchor. Not necessarily longer rode, but heavier tackle. I'm not sure 1/2" is adequate - maybe for your working anchor, but you will want a storm setup that is seriously oversized. If I understand your itinerary correctly, there could easily come a time when your anchor is the only thing between you and the beach. This is your only realistic chance to upgrade it.

You will indeed need a forklift to move the chain around.

Peter Screenshot_20221127_193134_YouTube.jpg
 
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mvweebles said:
S/V Panope has been doing anchor tests for a while. Here's his review of the Mantus M2 20 kg. Based on Panope tests last year showing flaws, Mantus apparently made modifications of the design to improve holding. Below is a screenshot of the current stack rankings of anchors Panope has tested. Mantus shows fairly well. Big benefit is it can be disassembled, though not sure that's important for your use case


https://youtu.be/hHieSDi8oqY

Note that Mantus is running a 20% discount sale through tomorrow, Nov 28th.

https://www.mantusmarine.com/?_vsrefdom=googleads&msclkid=28a32cb4d69111a09e5f4f30fba46b98

If I read your post correctly, you are considering running two Fortress anchors on your bow for symmetric aesthetic reasons. To be blunt, running two identical anchors will send the exact opposite message of what you want. Folks run dual anchors to accommodate differing bottoms; and/or to run a working anchor and a storm anchor. Running two identical anchors makes little sense.

I see you're in Newport Beach CA. Fortress is not a common primary anchor in those waters. Fortress is a good backup anchor.

30-feet of chain on a 65-foot boat is woefully undersized except for a lunch hook. Fine if you just plan to putt around Newport harbor.

If you plan to head to the Channel Islands to some of the great anchorages out there, you really need robust ground tackle for a working anchor. Given the height of your bow, I'd run at least 250-feet of 1/2" chain and the largest Vulcan (or similar) you can fit in your bow roller. This would be your working anchor, not your storm anchor.

If your plan is to head through Panama Canal and explore both sides you really need a more robust anchor setup than you're contemplating - a storm anchor. Not necessarily longer rode, but heavier tackle. I'm not sure 1/2" is adequate - maybe for your working anchor, but you will want a storm setup that is seriously oversized. If I understand your itinerary correctly, there could easily come a time when your anchor is the only thing between you and the beach. This is your only realistic chance to upgrade it.

You will indeed need a forklift to move the chain around.

Peter View attachment 134072
Click to expand...

Currently, my boat is set up with two fortress anchors. one each about 18 inches of the bow on each side. They originally planned to use about 4' of chain, and 600' of 1" nylon rope. I am changing it to chain, either 10mm or 12mm (one of my questions). about 300~500' per anchor.

But per this forum, it appears that having a different type of anchor as well might be a good idea. I do not disagree with this. So go with the delta, mantus, etc, but put a bow roller in the middle of my bow. So there would be a total of 3 anchors there. The new mantus, run maybe 30' of anchor rode, and 300~500' of 1.25" nylon anchor rope.

And yes, the goal is to hang out in the channel islands, as well as some anchoring off shore near Huntington, Newport, La Jolla, Etc. Though the boat is in Houston, and will be going from there to Key West, Miami, Bahamas, Turks, DR, ABCs, Columbia, Roatan, through the canal and up the west coast on its on bottom.
 
sndog said:
But per this forum, it appears that having a different type of anchor as well might be a good idea. I do not disagree with this. So go with the delta, mantus, etc, but put a bow roller in the middle of my bow. So there would be a total of 3 anchors there. The new mantus, run maybe 30' of anchor rode, and 300~500' of 1.25" nylon anchor rope.
Click to expand...


I suggest not Delta. Outdated by better anchors now. See S/V Panope tests. From our own experience, I can say an oversized Delta only worked "OK" here in the Chesapeake mud...

Why three rollers? You already have two, yes?

-Chris
 
ranger58sb said:
Two anchors of the same style seems odd; think I'd have a Fortress and something else. (Typical anchor thread response.)

3/8" might be OK.

Might be a compromise chain size between 3/8" and 1/2" -- 7/16" -- available. Still would depend on whether you can match with gypsies. (And your 3/8" chain still might be OK.)

Chain is typically sold in barrels and half barrels, etc., with X feet of Y size in each barrel or half barrel. (See Defender's offerings, for example.) Once you home in on chain size, you could buy a barrel or a half barrel, then splice on a boatload of 8-plait for even deeper water. Or for emergency back-up rode in case you have to jettison one chain...

-Chris
Click to expand...


Are there gypsies that will handle both 1/2" chain and line? I have only ever used a combo gypsy with smaller chain (less than 3/8"), and for 1/2" have only seen all-chain gypsies. But I also haven't really looked since I have only had all chain in larger sizes.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Datenight View Post
Chain is typically sold in barrels and half barrels, etc., with X feet of Y size in each barrel or half barrel. (See Defender's offerings, for example.) Once you home in on chain size, you could buy a barrel or a half barrel...

Rob
Be aware, the barrel will be heavy, so plan ahead. The delivery guy has to bring and unload it, I suggest direct to the marina. Then you have to get it along the marina to the boat, and load it onto the boat. The windlass on the boat can do the latter.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia

Bruce,

I was agreeing with Chris, ranger58sb. Just want to be sure he gets the credit.

Shipping and loading the chain can be an issue/costly. I bought 200 feet of 3/8 G4 for our NP 45. Since I am in Southeastern CT, I drove to Defender to pick it up. They would not load the barrel into my 3/4 ton van, worried about the weight. Brought the barrel out to the vehicle (with a fork truck) and left it at the side of the van. I had to hand it onboard.

I did this carefully with the hope I would be able to get the boat to a bulkhead and park the van close by. The plan worked and I was able to use the windlass to load the chain aboard.

Rob
 
What is the attraction to using rope at all? I could possibly see backing a long chain rope with rope as Hail Mary protection (as Chris suggests), but I think using anything but chain would be a regret. Chain gypsies are secure whereas rope gypsies are friction. I doubt that much rope will flake properly into the chain locker.

Managing three anchors with three rodes on one bow (even with three rollers) sounds like a mess. Where will the third rode go?

If I were in your shoes, I'd go with a single anchor on the bow, a spare rode in the second chain locker, and a second anchor possibly stowed vs on the roller. The Mantus M2 disassembles and can be fairly easily stowed. On the bow, I'd go with an enormous Vulcan and a barrel of 1/2" G4 chainp. As anchors have improved, need for dual anchors to match bottom type has reduced so I'm not sure I'd bother (except maybe in Chesapeake where I understand mud presents a special case).

I cannot imagine anchoring in the middle of the ocean. You may want to checkout a sea anchor such as thr Burke SeaBrake. Controls drift pretty well and you don't need a windlass with 1000-lb rating to haul.

Do you own this boat, or is this a tabletop exercise?

Peter

EDIT - below is from Dashew's "Practical Seamanship" book. One item not discussed in this thread is scope - frequently, there just isn't swing-room for scope beyond 5:1 or so. Dashew uses crowded anchorages as an example, but from experience, I can tell you that many of the Channel Island anchorages are small and you cannot lay-down more than 5:1-7:1 scope even if you're the only boat there. In the PNW with deep, narrow anchorages, 3:1 is not unheard of which is why the Bruce has remained popular there as it was developed with short-scope in mind (FYI - for short-scope on any anchor, best to set at 5:1 or more, then reduce to 3:1).

If you spend a lot of time in crowded anchorages there are ways to reduce your scope requirements. The most efficient, as we’ve already
mentioned, is to increase anchor size. A bigger anchor gives more holding power, which in turn means you need less scope to keep you in place
for a given load.

Switching from a rope rode to chain will have a similar effect, as will increasing chain size, although this is not as efficient in terms of total weight as just increasing anchor size​
 
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twistedtree said:
Are there gypsies that will handle both 1/2" chain and line? I have only ever used a combo gypsy with smaller chain (less than 3/8"), and for 1/2" have only seen all-chain gypsies. But I also haven't really looked since I have only had all chain in larger sizes.
Click to expand...


Previous boat, Maxwell RC vertical windlass, yes rope/chain gypsy worked well. The teeth were offset a bit from each other, so something was always grabbing. The rode counter didn't work well with the rope part, though; too much slippage I guess.

Current boat, Lofrans Project 1500 vertical windlass, manual says it should work with rope/chain -- with the optional "finger" installed. The "finger" applies pressure to the rope... Our unit has the "finger" but I haven't tried the combo yet, though.


mvweebles said:
What is the attraction to using rope at all? I could possibly see backing a long chain rope with rope as Hail Mary protection (as Chris suggests), but I think using anything but chain would be a regret. Chain gypsies are secure whereas rope gypsies are friction. I doubt that much rope will flake properly into the chain locker.
Click to expand...

In my case, and not yet actually implemented or even tested... I'm thinking 100' of rope at the boat end would give me almost 100' of useful rode (actually sufficient for general anchoring around here) if I were to have to jettison the whole chain. And it's easier to cut the rope than it would be to cut the chain somewhere along it's length.

That said, I'm still messing with "technical issues" with the windlass itself... so haven't upsized the gypsy or chain, nor added rope yet... so much of my "plan" is theory.

FWIW, we had about 50' of chain and 300' of 8-plait on the previous boat... and the rope retrieved and fell nicely enough. (That combination was mostly about shortening the cleaning time required to bring the anchor and chain back on board... without as much Chesepeake slime, ideally. It also happened to let me bypass that whole snubber thing most of the time. I may actually go back to something like that, maybe 100' of chain and a boatload of rope, ditto to avoid messing with snubbers when possible.)

-Chris
 
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ranger58sb said:
Previous boat, Maxwell RC vertical windlass, yes rope/chain gypsy worked well. The teeth were offset a bit from each other, so something was always grabbing. The rode counter didn't work well with the rope part, though; too much slippage I guess.

Current boat, Lofrans Project 1500 vertical windlass, manual says it should work with rope/chain -- with the optional "finger" installed. The "finger" applies pressure to the rope... Our unit has the "finger" but I haven't tried the combo yet, though.
Click to expand...


With 1/2" chain? I ask because 100', or even 50' of 1/2" chain plus an anchor hanging off your bow will be very heavy, and any slip of the line could spell disaster.
 
I think the difference is use-case. The OP has plans for serious cruising where you don't always have a choice of weather. I worry about chafe with rope rode during bouncy conditions. The Southern California anchorages he'll be using are open roadsteads, frequently in small coves- where you simply cannot layout a lot of scope. I pulled the attached off Coastal Explorer showing Aerial and Chart view of "Willows" anchorage. It's about 200-yards across and anchoring in 30-feet of water or so; plus bow height; plus tidal swing of around 4-5 feet. Not a place for lightweight ground tackle. Also not a place for Danforth style anchors unless you anchor bow and stern, which is often done in these anchorages. In all fairness, this is one of the tighter anchorages, but by no means is it an uncommon one.

The previous owner of the OPs boat had something odd in mind. The pictures show a pair of matched Danforths mounted to the deck. Danforths are really the only anchors that mount nicely on a foredeck so I'd guess the high "pretty" score drove the decision. 1000 feet of rope with 5-foot of chain is nuts.

All I can tell you is that if I were still delivering and someone asked me to deliver a 65-foot boat from Houston to Newport Beach with rope ground tackle, I'd pass. That's a lot of miles to go and expect good weather and good holding. Reputations are difficult to build and easy to destroy. I'd never get a chance to explain why I lost a boat on my watch. If nothing else, rope rode is a pain in the ass to handle - it invariably slips in the gypsy, especially if you need to haul in middle of night with a breeze. Unless you're in weight-saving mode (which is a pretty good reason - Chris, your boat looks like it might like a lightweight bow), I just wouldn't do it for serious cruising.

Peter

Willows Anchorage Santa Rosa IS.jpg
 
I agree that the existing windlass looks like a Lofrans Titan.

I'd probably want 1/2" G43 for the primary anchor. G70 might even be a reasonable pick, as going bigger than 1/2" is likely impractical for both weight and physical size. IIRC the chain Simi 60 deformed was equivalent to BBB / G30, so G43 would be stronger.

Anchor wise, I'd want something huge and modern as the primary, then one of those big Fortresses as the next in line. For the second anchor, a heavy duty mixed rode may be appropriate to allow use of more and larger chain on the primary without weight becoming a concern.

The challenge, as mentioned, will be safe handling of a mixed rode at that scale. A Maxwell RC12 will pull 1/2" chain spliced to 7/8" rope according to their specs. Of course, it only handles 1 rode, so to have 2 ready for windlass deployment would require a pair of windlasses side by side. I don't think any of the big double sided windlasses can handle rope and chain on the same gypsy (the Lofrans models certainly don't). Using something like Samson Tenex (polyester 12 strand) in 7/8" would give a breaking strength a little higher than 1/2" G43 chain, but the working load is still lower. If 1" rope would fit, that would match up the working load ratings.

The Maxwell windlasses do handle a mixed rode as well as they claim. I've never had the rope portion of mine slip, and I've found it actually works better with more load on the windlass. A few months ago I anchored in ~120 feet of water, so I was pulling up about 165 lbs of anchor and chain when the splice came through the windlass. It was honestly the smoothest transition it's ever made from rope to chain during retrieval.
 
Make sure you find out what the max pull weight for your windlass is rated for. We run 300' of 1/2" chain and a Vulcan 55 as our primary anchor on a 66,000 lb boat and are limited to 300' due to a 1000lb max pull weight of our windlass. In practice you'd never be pulling all 1000# straight up but I like to size for worst case scenarios.
 
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