Heating Systems

In the process of buying a Krogen 49 Express. She's in Sturgeon Bay WI and we live on the Maine coast. A long trip is in our future!!

We plan on bringing the boat back east starting the end of April heading north through the North Channel then south through the Trent Severn Waterway. I have a feeling that it's going to be pretty cool and possibly quite rainy that time of year - so - we're looking into a larger heat source for the boat.

Do anyone have experience with larger diesel 12/24 volt furnaces?

Thanks

John
Slainte 1

You don’t need what I consider large for a 49’ boat. A Hurricane is a large system for a 49’ boat. These systems are very reliable and easy to maintain. They are hydronic. This means you get multiple zones to control which reduces hot and hold spots. You can also tie them into your engine to use the engines to heat the water. The down side is expense. Buying them is the cheap part. Installation is the expensive part.

I can’t recommend a Dickerson because of the size of your boat. They are simple and inexpensive but it would take several of them to heat your boat.

Ksanders uses Wallace to heat his 4788. Hopefully he will chime in with his details. I think he uses two forced air units but I could be easily wrong. I do like the Wallace units for dependability.

I have heard only good things about Kabola and Olympic heaters. Twistedtree uses the Kabola. I believe these are over kill for your boat.

I am not a fan of Espar or Webasto forced air units.

People claim to have luck with the knock off Chinese units but they haven’t been around long enough to determine dependability.

Thanks for the info Tiltrider!
I will look into these units and learn more!

PS - I' ve used those cheap China made truck heaters in most of my trailer spray foam units.........actually, they work well FAR better than Espar and cheap enough that if it goes, I replace it.

Thanks again! Happy cruising!

i too have hydronic and love it. but i've also used forced air espar and they're great too. i used the 4kw ones for years as a liveaboard.
forced air is easier to install, but the ducting is much larger than the water hoses of hydronic.

I put a Kabola hydronic heater in our nordhavn 62 earlier this year. Boiler, 9 air handlers, water heater tie in etc. For a boat like yours I bet the parts alone would be probably 20k$. We did the install ourselves so I dont know exact labor costs, but I'd bet if you had to hire someone its probably an additional amount that may exceed double the parts cost.

That said, it works amazing.

B

Slainte 1 said:

In the process of buying a Krogen 49 Express. She's in Sturgeon Bay WI and we live on the Maine coast. A long trip is in our future!!

We plan on bringing the boat back east starting the end of April heading north through the North Channel then south through the Trent Severn Waterway. I have a feeling that it's going to be pretty cool and possibly quite rainy that time of year - so - we're looking into a larger heat source for the boat.

Do anyone have experience with larger diesel 12/24 volt furnaces?

Thanks

John
Slainte 1

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I have a Hurricane hydronic system. It's a great heater with two draw backs.

1 the power draw when running. If you will be at a dock each night or don't mind running the generator no worries.

2 it won't dry the boat out much. Forced air can be ducted to draw outside air in, doing that relative humidity is your friend.

I have an ITR Chinook boiler, the big brother to the Hurricane. It's 50k btu, and would be overkill for you. My boat is dimensionally similar to yours, and I'm set up for winter liveaboard in eastern Canada.

It works well. I budget about 2 kwh/day house power to run it in shoulder season cruising down to freezing temps.

Doesn't the boat have reverse cycle A/C? Hydronic heat is great, but it's not cheap or easy to install. The existing system might be adequate, if not ideal.

Nice boat, and a great trip. Congratulations!

Reverse cycle heat is pretty cheap while tied to the dock. Unfortunately it requires the generator when not on the dock.

Have had drip diesel, forced hot air and hydronic. By far and away hydronic is the most comfortable heat. Allows multiple zones, quiet, even heat with no draftiness. Side advantages are it heats domestic hot water, works regardless of outside water temperature and uses much less electricity than reverse AC. If you have a large alternator you may get by with no need for genset while running. If a large house bank even while on anchor. We hav both reverse AC and hydronic. Must rather have the hydronic running than the AC.
Have had both wesbasto and espar. Think the espar is a bit easier to maintain. Learned if you plug the exhaust during the summer or winter lay up you get way more hours out of the nozzles.
My first choice is hydronic. No combustion inside living areas. No issues adding or subtracting humidity. Even quiet heat.
Second is Refleks with hydronic coil. Seems very reliable and even with the coil very low draw.
Third force hot air. Just wastes too much space
Last reverse AC
If you do any form of radiant heat invest in the best multi speed, quietest fans you can buy. Even with our set up will often run just one zone. Between heat rising (rarely need heat in the pilot house) and fans you can often heat just the lowest space in your boat. Also use your shades. We have two densities. First pull down is translucent. Second opaque but also gives thermal barrier. So shades all up during the day and opaque at night. Get solar warming daytime and much less heat loss at night. Cuts down on electrical draw significantly.
My2cents

Jeff F said:

. Doesn't the boat have reverse cycle A/C? Hydronic heat is great, but it's not cheap or easy to install. The existing system might be adequate, if not ideal.

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Good point about using Reverse Cycle to get you going. Assuming your new bride has it, would allow you to get the boat home and make a more deliberate decision, and have it installed locally (or if you're a DIY guy, near your tools etc.). Maybe install a Red Dot bus heater for when you're underway. Or just resign yourself to running the generator for reverse cycle.

I too love the lines on the KK express cruisers. I'm surprised that style is not more polupular.

Nice choice -

Peter

The OP wasn’t clear but I’d consider how I intend to use the boat. Is this query just for the trip east or do you plan to use the boat in winter and anchor a lot in cold weather?

We had a Hurricane heater installed ten years ago at $20k. We’re full time liveaboards and have wintered in cold climate three years of the ten. We might have broken even over the cost of marina electric where we stayed at the time.

$20k still buys a whole lot of generator run time for reverse cycle A/C if that fits one’s needs for eight months a year in Maine.

Anchoring out we still more often use the A/C, running the generator in the evening to charge batteries the A/C loads the generator and we crank up the heat before shutting it down. By morning outside temps in the high 30’s it’s still 60+ inside and depending what we’re doing either start the generator or the diesel heat.

Different ways of skinning the cat and depending what one’s plans are and how much $20k means to you.

Talk to the present owner or maybe KK. You may not need anything more than what is already on the boat.

Although KK's are not really native to Northern Wisconsin if it has been here a while the owner may have may already made the mods you need.

We bought our Albin south of Chicago and brought it up on Lake Michigan early in May or maybe late in April. It was cold, we were the only boat on the water. Most marinas were not open yet. WHen we got really cold on the flybridge we just went below. Plenty of engine heat available down there.

pete

A friend with a KK48 has a Webasto 2020 hydronic heater with 6 zones. He's happy with it.

Heating System

Thank you all for the great information!!
You've given me lots to think about and try. I've decided to "wait n see" how comfortable we are on this trip. Certainly will live through it without too much trouble!! LOL

Thanks again to you all~! I'm really glad I signed up for the Trawler Forum!

See you on the water!

John Bryer
Wiscasset ME

tiltrider1 said:

Reverse cycle heat is pretty cheap while tied to the dock. Unfortunately it requires the generator when not on the dock.

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Good point to check whether the boat already has this. There is a good chance that it does.

I'll also ask whether the heat is just for the delivery trip to ME, or are you looking for a permanent heating system. That will likely make a big difference is how you go about it. Also, someone recently posted a new Dickenson for sale in the classified section.


Oh, and I have an Olympia boiler not a Kabola, thought I hear all good things about Kabola too.

If the boat has a generator and you only need the heat to get home. It’s not unusual to run with the generator on. If you don’t have reverse cycle heat you could get away with several space heaters. I prefer buying 4 of the adjustable one and run them at 750 watts. This is not a long term solution but will get you home in the winter.

I suggest you consider May 1 at the earliest. It snows from October into May. April 1 is still full-blown winter in the northern Great Lakes region. The ski hills are still open, and snow is on the ground. The North Channel is still frozen, you have a lot of ice flows in Lake Michigan and Huron and nothing is open. No dock facilities or fuel.
May 1 you may still find some ice. Expect a lot of rain and fog and sketters for the month of May. Even into June, expect to need heat in the Northeastern Lakes region. North Channel is the first to freeze and the last to thaw. Personally, I would start the trip on June 1 if I had radar.
You can go earlier by skipping the North Channel and Trent Severn and go with the current and wind thru Lake Erie to Buffalo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ISS067-E-7710.jpg_North_Channel_in_Lake_Huron.jpg

Having a heater that uses inside air for combustion will keep your boat dry. Every shower, boiling pot, or breath puts moisture in the cabin air. Without changing the air, moisture will build up in your clothes, bedding, curtains and on windows. Unprotected steel will rust.

I liveaboard and have several ways to heat. A Wabasto hydronic system using forced air units rather than radiators. It heats a cold boat several times faster than radiators. It also will heat my water. But it currently is the most expensive to run because of the diesel price. It is the most convenient.
I have a galley diesel stove with a water coil that will also heat my water heater.
I have a pellet stove that has a water coil that also will heat the hydronic system. It is the cheapest to run.
I also have a wood stove if firewood is easy to come by, but mostly use it to burn all the paper that comes with food and online shopping. It also has a water coil for the hydronic. Heating my boat with wood takes 5-6 armloads of wood daily. The least convenient.
I also can heat with electricity, about the price of wood pellets, but doesn't do anything about the moisture. 7.7¢/kwh at my dock.
And I have two China heaters at opposite ends of the main cabin. Mostly used in mild weather. Easy to use and easy on the diesel.

When cruising one or both mains engines can also heat the hydronics. In cold weather I can use the hydronic system to preheat the engines.
Today the relative humidity inside is 35%, outside 84%.

Another product you might want to consider is Planar. A dock friend installed his a couple of years ago and is very happy with it; inexpensive, rugged, and looks to be of good quality. It's major downside at the moment is that it is a Russian product although their website suggests they are actually located in Latvia.

https://planarheaters.com/

L you have a huge advantage most of us don’t have. That is a large boat. For most of us spac is a major concern.
I’ve had both air and hydronic radiators. For boats <60’ think radiators make better sense. Have found you need to be especially careful nothing crushes or tears the tubing and it does take up considerable otherwise useful storage space as does the blowers. Agree it heats faster but usually we put it on and leave it on so an extra 15-30m doesn’t impact much. Once the boat is warm just leave it on at a low level. Science shows having you cool a small bit is helpful in inducing sleep so may turn it down further. But usually leave it low day and night. Have no issue wearing a fleece or vest during the day and stripping to sleep. Use less diesel and electricity. Much prefer the heat. Comes out at sole level and compared to reverse or air is <1/4 the noise. For the systems we’ve had the furnace comes on only if the coolant mix temperature falls. In a tight boat our experience suggests that means less diesel and electricity use than the cycling of air.
Moist heated air is more comfortable than dry for most people. Easier on the sinuses. Is perceived as warmer. I think also less temperature gradient between air at the overhead and sole. Cold air has less capacity to hold water which is why winter air is so dry. For most people best comfort is around 50%+/-10%. Hydronic radiator heat neither adds nor subtract s moisture. Most boats have hoods over the cooker and extraction fans in the heads so cooking and showers add little. Unless you never get out of the pilot house or boat the amount respiration adds is not usually uncomfortable and just airing the boat out on rare occasion suffices. Avoiding getting the boat too dry prevents wood from shrinking and caulking from cracking. Other than storage we don’t dry the boat out during winter. Do it then to prevent mold. Of course during summer want the boats air dry as can be .
Winter boating is much harder than summer. Having some humidity in the air is more comfortable. Allows less cycling. Hydronic radiators allow the least noise except for radiant stove heat or drip heaters. Many of those have a pipe to supply external air for combustion to avoid losing heated air and as an attempt to keep moisture in the air. Many of those add on a hydronic coil in an attempt to supply more even heat throughout the boat. But end of day for most of us a burner outside the living space running hydronic radiators is the most comfortable heat.
We made a different decision for our house. But a house isn’t a boat. For the house we use geothermal heating air. The air is highly filtered and there’s a huge amount of registers hidden here and there. All pumps are remote so there’s no noise in the living spaces. Given the amount of registers air flow is near constant at a very low flow so imperceptible and without draftiness nor major fluctuations in temperature. The house is insulated at a level that far exceeds the boat so per cubic foot heat and cold transfer is minimal. Houses are different than boats. In my mind a metal boat with ocean rated double pane glass is easier to heat and cool than grp. Wood is also a better thermal barrier. Coring is of some help but has its own set of problems. So for the average 40-60’ grp boat think best set up is hydronic radiators with reverse AC as a backup.

PierreR said:

I suggest you consider May 1 at the earliest. It snows from October into May. April 1 is still full-blown winter in the northern Great Lakes region. The ski hills are still open, and snow is on the ground. The North Channel is still frozen, you have a lot of ice flows in Lake Michigan and Huron and nothing is open. No dock facilities or fuel.
May 1 you may still find some ice. Expect a lot of rain and fog and sketters for the month of May. Even into June, expect to need heat in the Northeastern Lakes region. North Channel is the first to freeze and the last to thaw. Personally, I would start the trip on June 1 if I had radar.
You can go earlier by skipping the North Channel and Trent Severn and go with the current and wind thru Lake Erie to Buffalo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ISS067-E-7710.jpg_North_Channel_in_Lake_Huron.jpg

Click to expand...

Hi Pierre - your comments are so helpful to us! Thank you!
We are not new to boating and have lived on and cruised the Maine coast for most of my life. Also, I spent several years in the North Atlantic with the Coast Guard and have seen lots of ice and big seas........however, I've never spent any time on the Great Lakes! In fact, at 69, the first time I ever stood on the shores of a Great Lake was this past fall when we flew out to Sturgeon Bay to look at this boat!! Standing on the beach at the east end of the SB canal was truly an eye opener for me.......fresh water, and you can't see across it!! Very strange sight for me!!

Anyway, we knew we had the winter to garner more knowledge of that area and so have joined the AGLCA (America's Great Loop Cruisers Association). This would hook us up with people far more knowledgeable (like yourself) and that, will be great! Even having the experience (long ago) of huge ocean waves, cold weather and ice, and having friends that actually worked the case of the Edmund Fitzgerald, I stood on the beach in Sturgeon Bay with some trepidation!! I have a huge respect for the power of weather and water and at my age don't want to subject my wife or myself to dangerous times on any body of water - salt or fresh!! Again, Pierre, thanks for your insight!

Joining this Forum has been great for us and again, I thank you all for the kind suggestions and help!

Happy Holidays to you all!

John

Slainte 1, if you have never spent time in the Great Lakes and are retired, I would strongly consider spending most of the summer in the Northern Lakes on your way back. I would also consider leaving around June 20th.
Head straight across Lake Michigan and begin your tour at Frankfort Michigan and go north from there. Heading across you won't see land for several hours.
The reason I say June 20th is that Lake Michigan experiences what is called turn-over. Remember, you are in fresh water. Fresh water is at its highest density at 39.4 deg F and does not change due to salinity. At the end of winter, most of the deep lake is at 39.4 deg but the surface is colder and therefore lighter density. With the warming sun the surface starts to approach 39.4 but the water just under it is still colder. What happens is suddenly the dense water sinks in a domino effect and is replaced by the colder water just below it. The result is instant fog and often local bad weather. You go from sweaters to winter coats in five minutes. Once the entire lake reaches 39.4 degrees (Early June in Northern Lake Michigan) the surface water rapidly warms, and summer is upon you. 95% of my 25,000+ miles of cruising are in the Great lakes
I was living on Lake Superior when the Edmund Fitzgerald went down. We were evacuated and had no cottage to go back to. Freezing spray had destroyed everything for 100 yards inland. That white hurricane was a real eye opener and molded my choice of boats from then on. The lakes more than once have reduced me to mere existence in my boat and that was in the summer.
Every month you might need heat.

Pierre - Fore warned is fore armed!! Experience is certainly the best teacher!! All this is very interesting to me. Our goal was to be able to get the boat back into Maine waters before mid-July and of course NOT knowing some of this information made the thought of getting back an easy one..........We knew we had to start someplace in the spirit of "information gathering" this winter; your post qualifies as great information, which of course adds to our knowledge base and thus will effect our decisions going forward.

You mentioned spending summer on the "way back". It was not our thought to go back north this year. The boat will be moored most of the time in Wiscasset Harbor Maine, BUT, I certainly want to spend time in the North Channel at some point! The problem is where to store the boat - if back in Sturgeon Bay, it mean another late start to the boating season.......hmmmmm, lots to think about!

One thought was to get the boat back to the east coast around July - head up to Maine for the rest of the summer, then head south to Charleston where we have family - then in the early spring head north again. If we decided to get back up to the North Channel at that point, we'd have to probably keep the boat back in Sturgeon Bay.......again, that means a late start for boating........

LOL - I think we live in the wrong place!! We've certainly got to do MUCH more thinking about the itinerary!!

Thanks again - talk soon!

I heated my boat in Seward Alaska all winter long for several years as a stayaboard.

On this boat I chose forced air Wallas furnaces and was very happy with that choice.

Why???

A forced air furnace can be configured to bring in some outside air creating a fresh air exchange. This reduces humidity inside and makes for a nice fresh smelling boat. That is just not possible with a hydronic unit, regardless of their popularity. This is a personal choice thing, I understand. There are good arguments for and against both hydronic and forced air technology.

I chose Wallas units because of their system of operation, which makes them extremely quiet, reliable, and offers a steady heat output.

I also chose them because they are designed to run on #2 diesel, something REALLY important for long term reliability.

Here is how it all works....

A furnace operates using generally two principals. One is a nozzle blowing a mist of diesel into a high speed stream of combustion air. This is how most heaters work. This creates a loud noise not unlike a jet engine. This is normal for these type of units.

The Wallace uses basically a pan that diesel is dripped into, and that diesel supplied combustion air. This makes for a much quieter operation.

Most diesel furnaces turn on and off to regulate the heat output. This creates a varying room temperature centered around the thermostat set point. The challenge on a boat is they are not sealed as well as a house and the cooling off part of the normal operation creates a slight negative pressure and pulls in cold air creating more of a drafty feeling.

The wallace modulates the heat output and in reality never turns off in normal operation. This creates a steady temperature in the boat similar to that of a fireplace or wood stove in a house.

Most furnaces are in reality engineered and manufactured for the trucking industry. Their claim for fame is that they reduce inefficient engine idiling time in large trucks. They are designed to run on winter grade diesel and have a tendency to carbon up on a diet of #2 diesel which is what we run our boats on.

The wallace is designed for marine usee

Slainte 1, September is still a great month in the Great Lakes. The opposite effect happens in the fall and delays winter. It is not a long-drawn-out trip from Georgian Bay back to the NY area. You need not go back to Sturgeon Bay for haul out. You can easily get back to Maine for some cruising by leaving the Northern Lakes in mid-August.
Once you cruise the Northern Great Lakes you will be damaged goods because you will want to come back every summer. it's an expensive trip to come back. I would suggest that you not waste the opportunity that this trip presents. You could leave as early as May 1st but if you leave May 1st, you will never want to return. If you leave June 20th, you will never want to leave.
If you were not set on getting back to Maine this summer but chose Charleston, then you could leave in mid-September and enjoy an unbelievable color season heading south.
I am bringing my boat back from New Orleans this spring to Cleveland Ohio, I may not make it back this summer. I might spend the summer in the Northern lakes and head back south through Lake Michigan to the Gulf coast again for winter.

I am following this thread with great interest as I will be spending summers in the Northern Lakes region.

Pierre you are a wealth of knowledge!!
My wife just said - looks like we have to change our plans!! LOL. I knew this would be the winter of education for the both of us!

I am brand new to this Forum so don't know if I can/should be private messaging.

All the information about the heating system has been a great help, but I'm thinking I should stop the Thread as I have plenty to think about ?? Just don't even know how to stop this one and open up a new one about the North Channel and all that goes with cruising up there........

I"ll figure it out at some point!

Thanks again and talk soon!

John

Slainte 1 said:

Pierre you are a wealth of knowledge!!
My wife just said - looks like we have to change our plans!! LOL. I knew this would be the winter of education for the both of us!

I am brand new to this Forum so don't know if I can/should be private messaging.

All the information about the heating system has been a great help, but I'm thinking I should stop the Thread as I have plenty to think about ?? Just don't even know how to stop this one and open up a new one about the North Channel and all that goes with cruising up there........

I"ll figure it out at some point!

Thanks again and talk soon!

John

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Don't stop the thread. Start at different thread in voyaging forum.

Interesting information on the wallas. Sounds like an excellent unit. Having lived for several decades with various different brands of hydronic/radiato units I’ve not noticed any fluctuations in temperature at all. The furnace responses to the temperature of the circulating fluid not to the ambient temperature of the ambient air that the zone thermostats are responding to to my understanding. Yes it takes awhile for that fluid to heat and then the valves open and the fluid starts to circulate. Even when it’s not circulating the fluid in the radiators is damn hot as I found out unfortunately. It’s hot enough often it’s circulating and heating the boat with the furnace off. The small fans behind the radiators can be placed down by the sole. Compared to the forced air units I’ve had (two different espar) the heat is much less drafty and fluctuates in temperature much less. I was quite surprised you think the opposite. Maybe the Wallace is different.
Do agree hydronic units can carbon up. Have found it’s more likely when run only rarely or with a old nozzle. Think if you have a good fine spray it happens less. Also think it happens more at start up. I replace my nozzles once a year regardless of what they look like and clean the unit then as well. Maybe it’s less as maybe it burns off when they’re run for a long time. Don’t know. Do carry an extra. For the wesbasto the special tool you can get helps.