What type CB for refer/freezer?

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Pat T

Pat T

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2019
Messages
215
Location
United States
Vessel Name
Moondance
Vessel Make
Grand Banks CL 42
Planning an install of a new refer/freezer (Vitrifrigo 180). For DC power it says,
" Provide a 25 A thermal-magnetic breaker type remote voltage switch. The remote switch must disconnect both the poles of the battery." I have been unable to find such an item. Do you know of such an CB/switch?
I would think that using a single pole CB on the positive side would suffice? Am I correct?
Thanks.
 
Not sure why.
On my GB some of the breakers are Heineman, out of Canada.

You could just use two single poles also.

Look for used breakers. Easier to find.
 
Blue Seas has a double breaker that's essentially two breakers stuck together and a pin connecting the two levers. If one trips it takes the other with it. It's really meant as an AC main breaker but they are AC/DC rated and available in several amperages.
Not sure why they specify breaking both legs but there must be a reason.
 
One problem may he that the negative lead may not go to the electrical panel. Lot of boats only have the positive lead going into the electrical panel.
 
Choices said:
Not sure why.
On my GB some of the breakers are Heineman, out of Canada.

You could just use two single poles also.

Look for used breakers. Easier to find.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I like the idea of using 2 breakers. Lots of choices out there. If there is a fault will both breakers trip?
 
Pat T said:
Thanks. I like the idea of using 2 breakers. Lots of choices out there. If there is a fault will both breakers trip?
Click to expand...

Probably not, unless you pin the levers together. I set a pair up to do that once, I used a small bolt and nut, #6 as I recall. There are holes in the levers for the bolt.
 
Comodave said:
One problem may he that the negative lead may not go to the electrical panel. Lot of boats only have the positive lead going into the electrical panel.
Click to expand...

Another requirement per Vitrifrigo is that the 12 volt cables go directly from the refer to the battery. So nothing is going to a panel. The type of CB I need is something that I can mount in the engine room . That is where my batteries are and where the cables will be run. I think some call it a surface mount circuit breaker. Appreciate the input Dave .
 
The double breaker could still work, just have to put it in a box you can mount at the battery.
 
jgwinks said:
The double breaker could still work, just have to put it in a box you can mount at the battery.
Click to expand...

Ah yes. Just might have to do that. Hopefully they make a box for just a couple/few breakers. Not familiar but that's what the internet is good for.
Thanks again.
 
Since it is 12 volts it doesn’t need to be in a box. You could just use a piece of plywood or Starboard and cut out a hole to mount the breaker.
 
Pat T said:
Excellent ! I knew somebody on this is forum would help. And yes, to make it simple they have the box for single or double toggle breakers. I'm half way done with this project thanks to you all.
Click to expand...

No problem.
 
I have a Vitrifrigo 180 and it was installed by the builder with a standard single breaker in the 12v panel. As, I'm sure, does everyone else. I can think of no good reason to protect the negative in a 12v circuit. Not required by either ABYC or EU regulations.

And connecting directly to the battery post is also wrong. It is likely to violate the ABYC rules for a maximum of 4 conductors on a post and creates a greater likelihood of a poor connection in the cable going to the busbar. Finally, ABYC requires circuit protection appropriate to the wire size within 7" of the battery post. Not sure how you'll get a breaker to do that so you'd have to install an additional fuse at the post.

Assuming that your breaker panel is wired with appropriate gauge wires for the load, I'd ignore the manual.
 
Last edited:
Pat T said:
Another requirement per Vitrifrigo is that the 12 volt cables go directly from the refer to the battery. So nothing is going to a panel. The type of CB I need is something that I can mount in the engine room . That is where my batteries are and where the cables will be run. I think some call it a surface mount circuit breaker. Appreciate the input Dave .
Click to expand...

I encounter a lot of VF's and I'm pretty sure I have never seen one wired directly to the battery, what if every equipment manufacturer required that? I suspect that requirement ensures fewer warranty claims for low voltage issues at the unit, but there is otherwise no good electrical reason to do this. A double pole breaker could be required on a vessel with an isolated ground DC system, found on many metallic vessels, and maybe VF got blamed for some corrosion issue so they cover themselves with this requirement, but it too is unusual, and I can think of no reason for it on a DC system, again other than those with isolated grounds. Can you share a photo of the page from the manual where it says this?

Most common toggle type, marine and household, breakers are thermal/magnetic. The electromagnetic trip mechanism responds instantly to high current surges, a dead short for instance, while the thermal portion uses a bi-metallic strip that responds to prolonged low level overloads.
 
Steve DAntonio said:
I can think of no reason for it on a DC system, again other than those with isolated grounds.
Click to expand...

Good thought on the isolated ground. Hadn't thought about that. Another theory I have is that some of these units are both DC and AC - and both voltages can be connected at the same time - the Vitrifrigo will use AC when available and then switch to DC when not. Perhaps the manual was poorly written (or translated) and confused the AC and DC breakers.

In any case, here's the paragraph out of my 180 manual for DC (the unit doesn't have the AC option). No mention of double breaker but still wants it connected directly to the battery post - as you say, a real problem if every manufacturer required this.
 

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Wow, direct current to the battery could be a long run and will require heavy guage cable plus significant current loss. I gave up on DC refers long ago. I use a boat sized Whirlpool Arcos, made in Mexico AC refer with good results, I celebrated the day I trashed my old "Nevercold" Norcold a few years ago. The Arcos is connected to 3,000 watt house inverter and a 1,000 amp hour AGM battery bank fed by 900 watts of solar. Refer cost $300, You open the door and fog comes out. It makes ice fast and it is well lit inside. Easy and cheap to replace. Looking forward to Lithium upgrade this summer.
 
Steve DAntonio said:
I encounter a lot of VF's and I'm pretty sure I have never seen one wired directly to the battery, what if every equipment manufacturer required that? I suspect that requirement ensures fewer warranty claims for low voltage issues at the unit, but there is otherwise no good electrical reason to do this. A double pole breaker could be required on a vessel with an isolated ground DC system, found on many metallic vessels, and maybe VF got blamed for some corrosion issue so they cover themselves with this requirement, but it too is unusual, and I can think of no reason for it on a DC system, again other than those with isolated grounds. Can you share a photo of the page from the manual where it says this?

Most common toggle type, marine and household, breakers are thermal/magnetic. The electromagnetic trip mechanism responds instantly to high current surges, a dead short for instance, while the thermal portion uses a bi-metallic strip that responds to prolonged low level overloads.
Click to expand...

Here is the photo of requirements. Appreciate the comments. Good to know the CB I purchased is more than likely thermal-magnetic as it surely does not mention it in the description.
 

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CarlF said:
I have a Vitrifrigo 180 and it was installed by the builder with a standard single breaker in the 12v panel. As, I'm sure, does everyone else. I can think of no good reason to protect the negative in a 12v circuit. Not required by either ABYC or EU regulations.

And connecting directly to the battery post is also wrong. It is likely to violate the ABYC rules for a maximum of 4 conductors on a post and creates a greater likelihood of a poor connection in the cable going to the busbar. Finally, ABYC requires circuit protection appropriate to the wire size within 7" of the battery post. Not sure how you'll get a breaker to do that so you'd have to install an additional fuse at the post.

Assuming that your breaker panel is wired with appropriate gauge wires for the load, I'd ignore the manual.
Click to expand...

Thanks for you input. I probably could have gotten away from using the double pole breaker but I did find one to use. Maybe an overkill but no harm. I think I am ok on the battery post connections. I have a house bank of 2 batteries and I don't think there are 4 conductors on each battery.

Did not know of the requirement for circuit protection within 7". I may have to add an additional fuse as you say. Damn, nothing is easy.

I would have liked to use my existing panel to tap power from to run this unit. The refer/fridge unit I took out of the boat was 240VAC so no luck there. If I chose to run new cables to the DC panel it would have added at least 10 more feet to my run. Connecting directly to my battery was the easier/shorter way and at that I am planning on using 8 gauge wire. Again maybe a little safety factor here but I can add small muffin fan for additional venting if needed with out worry.
 
Cigatoo said:
I had voltage drop issues with our Danfoss fridge compressor. Was wired through a circuit breaker. Danfoss also wants their units wired directly to the battery. I used #8 wire and re- wired it directly to the house battery using one of these.
https://www.bluesea.com/products/5024/ST_Blade_Battery_Terminal_Mount_Fuse_Block_Kit
Click to expand...

Carl. Not sure I understand what you have done? You used an 8 gauge wire, as I am planning on doing, combined with one of these fuse block kits but the fuse block doesn't look like it would accept an 8 gauge wire? Could you clarify? Thanks
 
Pat T said:
Carl. Not sure I understand what you have done? You used an 8 gauge wire, as I am planning on doing, combined with one of these fuse block kits but the fuse block doesn't look like it would accept an 8 gauge wire? Could you clarify? Thanks
Click to expand...

The Fuse block is rated for 100 amps total. I have a 15 amp fuse on the refrigerator circuit with #8 wire and a ring terminal…… I think?? I’ll try and double check / get a picture today.
Also connected bilge pumps to that same block on their own circuit. Only way to turn pumps and the fridge off is to pull the fuse. Simple and almost fool proof. But I’ll figure out something. Lol.
 
The only thing I want connected directly to the batteries is a beefy on off switch. I like all the loads to come through the dc distribution panel. I run nice big supply cables, (2/0) to the distribution and have an additional on off switch at that location so I can kill everything at once.
I’ve never had an issue with voltage drop at the refrigeration compressor. Just size the conductors properly.
 
Pat T said:
Thanks for you input. I probably could have gotten away from using the double pole breaker but I did find one to use. Maybe an overkill but no harm. I think I am ok on the battery post connections. I have a house bank of 2 batteries and I don't think there are 4 conductors on each battery.

Did not know of the requirement for circuit protection within 7". I may have to add an additional fuse as you say. Damn, nothing is easy.

I would have liked to use my existing panel to tap power from to run this unit. The refer/fridge unit I took out of the boat was 240VAC so no luck there. If I chose to run new cables to the DC panel it would have added at least 10 more feet to my run. Connecting directly to my battery was the easier/shorter way and at that I am planning on using 8 gauge wire. Again maybe a little safety factor here but I can add small muffin fan for additional venting if needed with out worry.
Click to expand...

Again, it makes little sense to wire directly to the bank, however, there is an exception to the 7" over-current protection rule, it can be up to 72" from the battery if the wire between the battery and the breaker is sheathed, sheathing could be a conduit or split loom (even electrical tape is compliant as far as ABYC standards are concerned, but I would not recommend that). I'd try to avoid adding a fuse, that just adds more connections and complication. More details on over-current protection requirements here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/over-current-protection/
 
Pat T said:
Here is the photo of requirements. Appreciate the comments. Good to know the CB I purchased is more than likely thermal-magnetic as it surely does not mention it in the description.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing. I can conjure up a reason for wiring directly to the battery, VF got enough calls or complaints that were the result of low voltage that this seemed like an easy fix, instead of simply requiring a min allowable voltage drop. I use VF reefers on some 70 foot vessels, am I expected to make home runs to the battery on those? Odd, but no harm if it's done properly. Personally, I would not do it provided the voltage at the panel was sufficient, and if it wasn't I'd fix that.

And, re. the double pole DC breaker, again, I suspect there was a corrosion claim somewhere in VF's history, perhaps related to their keel coolers on a metal vessel, and this too seemed like an easy fix. Again, no harm in this, but it's an anomaly, no other reefer manufacturers I'm aware of require it.
 
Steve DAntonio said:
Again, it makes little sense to wire directly to the bank, however, there is an exception to the 7" over-current protection rule, it can be up to 72" from the battery if the wire between the battery and the breaker is sheathed, sheathing could be a conduit or split loom (even electrical tape is compliant as far as ABYC standards are concerned, but I would not recommend that). I'd try to avoid adding a fuse, that just adds more connections and complication. More details on over-current protection requirements here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/over-current-protection/
Click to expand...

Steve, first off, thanks for the link to your enlightening (at least to me) write up on over-current protection requirements.
Second, I was hoping that using this type of duplex wire; https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B55YD5VY?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1
might make the requirement of being "sheathed?" Certainly this outer insulation is as good as wrapping in electrical tape? If not then adding a split loom is easy enough.
 
Pat T said:
Carl. Not sure I understand what you have done? You used an 8 gauge wire, as I am planning on doing, combined with one of these fuse block kits but the fuse block doesn't look like it would accept an 8 gauge wire? Could you clarify? Thanks
Click to expand...

Pat,
I went to the boat and checked. I used 8 gauge wire connected to a ring terminal for a #10 stud. I had to trim the ring terminal just a little to get it to fit the fuse block. If this were a high amperage draw situation I probably would not have done so. Seeing it is a 15 amp circuit I was comfortable in doing so.

According to a local refrigeration company low voltage is a very common problem with Danfoss compressors. I guess that they wont start with anything less than 12 volts. They solve many problems by wiring directly to the battery as instructed by Danfoss.

Good luck
 
Pat T said:
Steve, first off, thanks for the link to your enlightening (at least to me) write up on over-current protection requirements.
Second, I was hoping that using this type of duplex wire; https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B55YD5VY?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1
might make the requirement of being "sheathed?" Certainly this outer insulation is as good as wrapping in electrical tape? If not then adding a split loom is easy enough.
Click to expand...

While I prefer the loom, as long as the sheathing is present between the battery and the CB, and it's no more than 72" before reaching the CB, yes that would be ABYC compliant.
 
Carl and Steve, thanks for your recent follow up. Really valuable info for me in moving ahead with this project. And also to the rest of you that took the time to post. Makes for a great forum.
Pat
 
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