Chain Hooks

Did the archive search for chain hook threads, but came up empty. So I am soliciting some collective input.

Plan A- Chain Hook to make life easier for the deck crew (the navigator that
always tell me where to go)

Plan B- Teach deck crew to tie/use an anchor bend (more risky to my
happiness and long term health)

I am refitting ground tackle, using 3/8" G43 chain. Also making new 3/4" nylon triple strand bridle and solo snubber. Seems the variety of available chain hooks is about the same as the number of "tiki drink" recipes at a beach bar. Definitely a performance over cost type of boater, but there are some manufacturers that are darn proud.

Thoughts, comments and crude remarks welcomed

I can't really tell if you are serious. I have never heard of such a thing as hooks on the end of dock lines. Are you referring strictly to anchor rhodes and lines?

I'll wait a bit before I offer a stream of advice and criticism about hooks on dock lines for a little clarification.

pete

Try searching "bridle" or "snubber" and you'll find many threads that discuss all aspects of snubbers with emphasis on chain hooks. Like yourself, seems a large number of boaters have an aversion to tying a hitch for whatever reason (disinterested crew being a sound reason).

If anyone wants to try an old fashioned hitch using a dockline they already have aboard, the Camel Hitch is almost as easy as a Rolling Hitch and is significantly more secure and holds in all directions of pull making it a useful knot for your repertoire (tying fenders to railings; gripping a line to de-tension it, etc.)..

https://youtu.be/FFzxIbNzpKg

Peter

Pete Meisinger said:

I can't really tell if you are serious. I have never heard of such a thing as hooks on the end of dock lines. Are you referring strictly to anchor rhodes and lines?

I'll wait a bit before I offer a stream of advice and criticism about hooks on dock lines for a little clarification.

pete

Click to expand...

Pete - I read the OP as making a dedicated snubber, not an adjunct to a dockline.

Peter

On our anchor rode snubber, we us a flat SS plate that has a groove in the middle that the chain fits in. It has a hole on each side of the groove that we have connected by shackles to the snubber lines. This plate only works with two snubber lines which we run to two cleats on opposite sides of the bow.

Tator

A 316SS chain hook for 3/8 is available from industrial suppliers for $40. I don't know why you'd use anything else. However fast you are at tying an anchor bend or rolling hitch, the chain hook is 10x faster both tying and untying. If used properly it won't come off the chain in use.

Save yourself a lot of trouble and forget the chain hook and get a soft shackle. Much easier to use, cheaper, doesn't fall off the chain, and comes over the bow roller so you can connect/disconnect on deck rather than handing over the side of the boat.

I've used two different types. First was the style that truckers use, and the second was an Ultra plate style. Ultra style easier to use when bending over trying to attach it, and not have it detach when playing it out.

twistedtree said:

Save yourself a lot of trouble and forget the chain hook and get a soft shackle. Much easier to use, cheaper, doesn't fall off the chain, and comes over the bow roller so you can connect/disconnect on deck rather than handing over the side of the boat.

Click to expand...

This.
I was introduced to the soft shackle approach when we bought DOMINO as that is what the PO had used for over 850 anchoring episodes during a ten-year span. Previously I had used chain plate or chain hooks.
We really like the soft shackle approach for both security and convenience.

twistedtree said:

Save yourself a lot of trouble and forget the chain hook and get a soft shackle. Much easier to use, cheaper, doesn't fall off the chain, and comes over the bow roller so you can connect/disconnect on deck rather than handing over the side of the boat.

Click to expand...

Make your own soft shackle long enough to use it to form a pusik hitch. No need to thread anything through the chain links. I used dyneema.

twistedtree said:

Save yourself a lot of trouble and forget the chain hook and get a soft shackle. Much easier to use, cheaper, doesn't fall off the chain, and comes over the bow roller so you can connect/disconnect on deck rather than handing over the side of the boat.

Click to expand...

If a soft shackle is loaded heavily, it isn't that easy to undo, and a little fiddly to put through a link to start with. Literally one second on or off with a hook. My chain hook goes over the bow roller just fine and I do all the handling on deck, I guess it might not with an undersized roller. If the hook falls off the chain, you aren't using it right. I have anchored many hundreds of times with the chain hook, hasn't come off even once. Both methods work, but I find the chain hook much quicker.

Yes, there are countless choices. My suggestion is you use a chain hook with a rating close to your chain's strength rating, and get one with a latching mechanism like this (see pic attached).
I bought 2 bcs I assume the latch is the weak link and will eventually rust and fail before the hook. Having the latch makes sure the hook doesn't fall off while lowering the chain to place the load on the bridle, or due to motion or swinging, which happened to us.

DDW said:

If a soft shackle is loaded heavily, it isn't that easy to undo, and a little fiddly to put through a link to start with.

Click to expand...

Granted it takes a second or two to insert the loop thru the chain. If the soft shackle is long enough, you will have no problem undoing it. Dyneema is so slippery that it doesn't bind. Additionally, if you use the largest diameter Dyneema that will easily fit (doubled) thru your chain link, it will be much stronger than the chain itself, silent & dependable. You can make your own soft shackle for about $6 of materials, or buy a commercial version for 5x that.

Flatswing said:

Granted it takes a second or two to insert the loop thru the chain. If the soft shackle is long enough, you will have no problem undoing it. Dyneema is so slippery that it doesn't bind.

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It doesn't go through the chain, it wraps around - someone above suggested a Prusik Hitch. Takes less than 10-seconds to tie. Dyneema grips chain fine. There is a risk of chafe where snubber attaches to the Dyneema loop - a halyard shackle will minimize chafe.

Peter

I prefer a stainless steel chain hook. Suncor makes a very nice one that can be found at Defender.com. I feel more comfortable with that versus a Dyneema lood, to each their own. I've got probably 120 anchorings this year with the hook and maybe 400 in the last seven years without the hook ever falling off (touch wood). If the hook is falling off, your technique is faulty.

Couple of points on technique:
The hook needs to stay probably 5' off the bottom.

The chain loop from the hook to the bow roller needs to hang down quite a bit. While I don't want it touching the bottom, it's common for it to be hanging down 10' before coming back up. The weight of the chain hanging down and neither the chain nor the hook touching the bottom, eliminates all but one way for the hook to come off the chain.

Finally, you can't allow the chain coming off the bow roller to rub the snubber, the hook or the anchor chain. To prevent this, I pull the chain back to a bow hawse pipe with a line.

Anchor chain pulled back to the hawse pipe.


Nothing rubbing on the anchor chain, hook, or snubber.



The hook with the chain hanging straight down.



My storm snubber is a plate with a slot in it. For the depth I usually anchor in, the plate would be dragging on the bottom with substantially longer snubber lines. To keep the plate off the chain, it's held in place with a zip tie. Under tension it's not coming off. When it slacks and bounces on the bottom, the lack of tension may allow it to fall off.

Ted

mvweebles said:

It doesn't go through the chain, it wraps around - someone above suggested a Prusik Hitch. Takes less than 10-seconds to tie. Dyneema grips chain fine. There is a risk of chafe where snubber attaches to the Dyneema loop - a halyard shackle will minimize chafe.

Peter

View attachment 133864

View attachment 133865

Click to expand...

It looks like you are using the Prusik Hitch to grip the chain, then a hard shackle to link the hitch loop to a spliced loop on the end of your snubber. Is that right?


I use a single soft shackle to replace both. The soft shackle threads through a chain link, through the snubber loop end, then attaches to itself to link the snubber and chain together. If the soft shackle material is sized right, it threads through the chain link with no issues, and is still stronger than the chain.

Where I have found chain hooks fall off is not while anchored, but while anchoring. Once you hook to the chain, you need to maintain tension on the snubber line until it's taking the weight of the chain. Otherwise the hook falls off the chain. I have used two different chain hooks that were recommended, and both required the same technique to deploy them. I thought it was nothing short of a PITA. But maybe I was doing it wrong? One of the hooks (sorry, I don't remember the brand of either) locked on the chain better, but was still prone to falling off.

twistedtree said:

It looks like you are using the Prusik Hitch to grip the chain, then a hard shackle to link the hitch loop to a spliced loop on the end of your snubber. Is that right?


I use a single soft shackle to replace both. The soft shackle threads through a chain link, through the snubber loop end, then attaches to itself to link the snubber and chain together. If the soft shackle material is sized right, it threads through the chain link with no issues, and is still stronger than the chain.

Click to expand...

For a boat your size with large chain, threading through the link may be the right answer. For a smaller boat such as mine, threading a loop end of a soft shackle isn't quite so easy.

But as mentioned above, I'm still a bit old school. I use a dockline and Camel Hitch. It's something I already have aboard, and is sized appropriately. I don't know many knots, and I'm not particularly fast, but find knowing a few knots/hitches/bends to be pretty handy and helps keep me organized despite my normal condition of slight chaos.

It's been many years since I have used a chain hook, before newer designs (or at least before I knew of them). I found them awkward to use and not always handy to find aboard.

Yet another topic that comes down to personal preference.

Peter

I always used just a plain galvanized grab hook and used a shackle to attach it to the thimble of my snubber line. When the hook got too rusty looking, I would replace it.
Anchored hundreds of times that way. Never had a problem with the hook falling off once I developed a method.

twistedtree said:

Save yourself a lot of trouble and forget the chain hook and get a soft shackle. Much easier to use, cheaper, doesn't fall off the chain, and comes over the bow roller so you can connect/disconnect on deck rather than handing over the side of the boat.

Click to expand...

Two questions:

1. What type/size of soft shackle for a 7/16" chain? Any commercially recommended ones to try one out before committing.

2. Do you run your soft shackle through the chain instead of using to attach to a Prusik knot, and soft shackling that to your bridle? With 7/16" chain, is that a 6mm to fit?

I'd try one out. It would be nice to have it come through the roller.

twistedtree said:

Where I have found chain hooks fall off is not while anchored, but while anchoring. Once you hook to the chain, you need to maintain tension on the snubber line until it's taking the weight of the chain. Otherwise the hook falls off the chain. I have used two different chain hooks that were recommended, and both required the same technique to deploy them. I thought it was nothing short of a PITA. But maybe I was doing it wrong? One of the hooks (sorry, I don't remember the brand of either) locked on the chain better, but was still prone to falling off.

Click to expand...

If it falls off while anchored, you do not have enough slack in the chain. The chain needs to have enough slack in it to accommodate a large amount of stretch in the snubber. 2 or 3 feet for a calm night, 10 or 15 for a storm. It will never come off if it starts with some slack since removing the slack in the chain requires stretching the snubber which will spring back.

It will come off during anchoring if some tension isn't held on the snubber while the last of the chain is being paid. I hook the chain between the gypsy and the roller, lightly holding the snubber and keeping a small amount of tension on it. Then push the button to let the chain out, allowing the snubber to slide through my hand until enough is out, cleat it, and let some chain slack out. Coming in, I recover the snubber hand over hand as I recover the chain until the hook comes over the roller, then unhook it. It doesn't really matter if it comes off as you weigh anchor, but if it comes off at just the wrong time and length, there is some danger that it will swing into the bow which I prefer to avoid.

Your boat has a lot bigger chain and snubber than mine, so maybe it isn't as easy (I have 5/16 on the trawler, 3/8 on the sailboat). Also I'm under the impression from some of the posts than people are putting out 100' of snubber, that would take some time. I don't do that, it isn't useful for anything really. I don't use a hook with a latch, that just adds time and complication with no benefit for me - might as well use a soft shackle.

The hooks pictured above are for chain - chain. I use one with an eye, and splice 8 plait through the eye.

I seem to remember this subject coming up when I first joined this group. Fast forward to now, our snubber system has evolved over the years due to failures at extremes.

Lots of success with suncor chain hooks, but less than optimal as mentioned in shallow anchorages. Also when we used a hook we eventually spliced it directly to the snubber after having had a stainless thimble collapse and deform during a storm. The snubber was apparently stretched to more than 30% of its working load and became hockled in the middle and melted into one large mass at the eye splice.

We now use multiple smaller diameter 8 plait snubbers all tuned for specific wind ranges. Plait construction offers much greater energy absorption and strength than our single nylon 3 strand snubbers and they are also much lighter and easier to deploy. We also now splice the eyes with frictionless rings for use with soft shackles.

Chain hooks are no longer an option when we choose to use more than one snubber (>35 knots) so we switched over to the soft shackles. Once again under extreme conditions the soft shackles have also melted and one failed catastrophically. That’s also another reason we use multiple snubbers for bad weather.

I’m currently thinking of sourcing some sk99 fiber amsteel and giving the soft shackles another go. For known storm conditions though I’ll go back to old reliable, a simple rolling hitch tied directly to our chain for each snubber. As usual there is no one perfect solution.

Bowball if want to try a soft shackle 5/16” should be able to run right through one of your chains links.

Victory hook on our daily snubber
Cups the chain link gently.
Never falls off if you leave a loop of chain
Advantage is that on retrieval as soon as the load is off, it falls off so no one necessarily needed at bow
Cost about $30 and has seen 80+ knots..

Soft shackle on the storm snubber,
Dyneema through chain

ksanders said:

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An old test said these damaged the chain as the force was applied on the weaker sort of the link, unlike an Ultra hanger.

bowball said:

Two questions:

1. What type/size of soft shackle for a 7/16" chain? Any commercially recommended ones to try one out before committing.

2. Do you run your soft shackle through the chain instead of using to attach to a Prusik knot, and soft shackling that to your bridle? With 7/16" chain, is that a 6mm to fit?

I'd try one out. It would be nice to have it come through the roller.

Click to expand...

I'm not familiar with the sizes, but RopesInc is. I told them what size chain and they made up an appropriate soft shackle. It was $39.


Another way you could go about it is to look up the breaking strength of your chain, and pick a Dyneema size that is equivalent. My chain has a WLL of 9000 lbs, and 5/16" Dyneema exceeds that. You can also buy them off the shelf at Fisheries and I'm sure other places too.


I run the loop through a chain link and through the spliced end of my snubber, then close the soft shackle choker. When you look at it you won't believe it will hold, but it will. I wish I had a picture, but don't.

Here are some pictures. Mine is like the first picture.


https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/threads/using-soft-shackles-on-chain-snubbers.147179/

BTW, we use our soft shackle in two different ways with snubbers. I have two snubber lines, made to length, with spliced eyes on both ends with chafe gear built in. In light conditions I use one over the second bow roller. One end of the snubber drops over a deck cleat, and the other end is soft shackled to a chain link. In heavy weather, I run two snubbers, one from each bow hauser. Again, one end is dropped over a deck cleat, and the other ends are soft shackled to a chain link. So same snubber lines, same soft shackle, but two ways to rig it.

twistedtree said:

Here are some pictures. Mine is like the first picture.


https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/threads/using-soft-shackles-on-chain-snubbers.147179/

Click to expand...

Picture #2 is the Prusik Hitch attachment. I'm just learning this Dyneema stuff, but seems to me the thru-link manner (#1) would be more chafe-inducing. Not a problem with Dyneema?

Peter

You can tie your own soft shackles. It isn't difficult or time consuming, less so than a 3 strand eye splice. There are many ways to make them, this one is particularly simple. Testing on soft shackles typically show them to be around 150% - 190% of the line strength. But I'd size it closer to the breaking strength of the chain (or weak point in the system), not the WLL of chain. I don't want to make the snubber attachment the weak point.

If you are going to do much work with dyneema, do yourself a favor and buy a knife or shears made to cut dyneema early on. Makes life a lot easier!