marinetrader vs. defever

which one is best for short trips offshore and range?

A similar question is "how long is a piece of string?"

Based solely on the reputations of both vessels I would be inclined to take the deFever every time unless the deFever was built by a less-than-upstanding yard.

But far more important than the brand name are the characteristics-- hull design, handling and ride in the conditions you are likely to encounter, boat layout and equipment, type of power, and on and on and on.

It may be that neither a Marine Trader or a deFever is suitable for offshore work of the type you are contemplating. DeFever drew a lot of designs. Which one are you talking about? American Marine's Alaskan series of 45' to 50-something foot boats mostly used a deFever design. Tony Fleming used a deFever design as the basis for his Fleming series of boats.

So I think there are lots and lots of variables to be determined before one can say this design is better than that design for doing such-and-such.

Marin,

Thanks for the great pictures posted over the years.

I know how long the string is, but I’m keeping that info to myself.

bfloyd4445 -

My best to you, but you don’t know what you don’t know.

Go here - T&T list and start reading. Pick a month. You’ll learn a lot

Mike

I bought my Defever 49 RPH up to Vancouver a couple years ago. It managed the task very well. Of course it was not a 40.

i'm not contemplating running over to the east for sushi just going offshore for day long fishing trips or occasional costal trips up too, or down too, better gunkholing waters like the sound or the delta of central ca.
I keep getting stuck on the defever 40 since i looked at one in Anatores the other day. They seem solid as rocks and available. Going to southern california after turkey day to look at a 41 and a 40 passagemaker. I love GB's but the wet ride comments led me to consider other options and then a Defever sunk her teeth in me<smile>
Still love the GB 32 but havent found any good ones at a reasonable price.
Read about a defever 40 going round the horn today which kinda proves her seaworthyness i think.

thanks Sceptic
my knowledge is kinda retarded regarding trawlers. Guys like you and Marin have taught me much the last month and i thank you all.

When you buy a 20 or 30 year old boat the previous 2 or 3 owners are at least as important as who drew the lines. Use the search function; read the archives.

bobofthenorth said:

When you buy a 20 or 30 year old boat the previous 2 or 3 owners are at least as important as who drew the lines. Use the search function; read the archives.

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ahhhh......never thought of that. Guess that also goes for a 35 year old boat....geezz thats old
How do i find past owners of the boat?

If the boat was documented there will be a record (USCG) of who the previous owners were. If the boat was not documented but simply registered in a state there will be no easily-searchable record of ownership.

And Bob has made an extremely important point. Whether you're talking about the boat in general or it's propulsion system, how they were treated by the previous owners has a WAY greater impact on that boat's condition than who made it in the first place. I've seen "ancient" Grand Banks woodies that were near new or even better than new condition and relatively recent fiberglass GBs that were in really bad shape. They all start out equal at the factory. What they are like ten, twenty, thirty, or more years later is totally the result of who's owned them.

Granted, design and construction, the quality of the materials, and how it was all put together will have an impact on how well the boat holds up under regular use or abuse, care or neglect. But by the time we, as used boat buyers come along, how the engines were operated and maintained is more important than the number of hours on them, and how diligent past owners were in fixing leaking windows and decks is more important than how those windows were fitted at the factory or how the decks were made.

Greetings,
Mr. 4445. Sorry, the fact a Defever 40 rounded Cape Horn proves or suggests nothing regarding seaworthiness which in itself is such a vague term it's pretty well meaningless.
A boat made a passage under a certain set of weather conditions and did so successfully. That's ALL!
Defever is a fine boat and suitable for a wide variety of use by a broad spectrum of boaters.
Determine WHAT you want to do with a boat, list your likes and preferences (layout, power options, berths etc.). Go with Mr. Marin's advice....

I'd take it a step further Bob. I gave up looking at brand names all together. Condition is what I look for exclusively.

Nothing is more expensive than a big, cheaply priced boat.

Thanks Marin. I'm the kind that cant stand to let something go that needs looked at and since 1976 i have always used synthetic lubricants and when i sell a car boat its usually spoken for before i advertise it for sale. I've been lucky i guess. The wrost time i had with a boat sale was a less than a year old bayliner that i bought new then didnt like it. The guy i sold it to in 1987 became a close friend to this day but the boat was junked in 2006 It had at least three zillion hours on it cause he took in partners and it was run everyday just about for years on beer drinking legal discussion cruises....The partners were all lawyers.

CPseudonym said:

I'd take it a step further Bob. I gave up looking at brand names all together. Condition is what I look for exclusively.

Nothing is more expensive than a big, cheaply priced boat.

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...thats for sure. No, i have no desire to own anything made in certain eastern countries so i would exclude them. I have been looking at several diferent boats all seem to be DeFever or GB clones. The DeFevers for the most part are made here in the west and i like that

CPseudonym said:

Nothing is more expensive than a big, cheaply priced boat.

Click to expand...

Which is a nice alternative to the advice, "Buy the smallest boat you can afford." By which is meant that for x-amount of money, the smaller a boat you buy the better shape or newer it will be, which generally amounts to the same thing.

You don't want to buy a boat that's too small for what you want to do, of course. But all else being equal including the price, the smaller the boat, the better shape it will be in and the less it will cost you to start using it and maintain it.

Marin said:

Which is a nice alternative to the advice, "Buy the smallest boat you can afford." By which is meant that for x-amount of money, the smaller a boat you buy the better shape or newer it will be, which generally amounts to the same thing.

You don't want to buy a boat that's too small for what you want to do, of course. But all else being equal including the price, the smaller the boat, the better shape it will be in and the less it will cost you to start using it and maintain it.

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well not exactly. There are those out there that havelearned to make a living doing shoddy repairs that look bristol to cover up defects. A good surveyor is a must in any purchase in my opinion. Am i correct?
anyway, these shoddy workmen are what i fear most in the purchase of a boat. Example: I 1973 frb GB 36 i looked at for sale by owner. He bought it with blisters so made the repairs himself. He said he opened up the blisters then filled them with an epoxy filler before applying some paint he purchased off the back of a truck cheap that was supposed to be military marine bottom paint used on battle ships. He was honest about what he did i think but no way i would buy that boat unless it was at a low enough price so i could strip the bottom and then properly redo the bottom. He also used it as a live aboard for several years and never moved the boat much. Bottom had not been looked at in 8 years since the last repair and the same fuel was still in the tanks cause she uses so little he hasnt had to put any in

whew, i aint no writer am i Marin<smile>

bfloyd4445 said:

...thats for sure. No, i have no desire to own anything made in certain eastern countries so i would exclude them. I have been looking at several diferent boats all seem to be DeFever or GB clones. The DeFevers for the most part are made here in the west and i like that

Click to expand...

Might want to do some research on where the vast majority of grp DeFevers were made.

Vyndance said:

Might want to do some research on where the vast majority of grp DeFevers were made.

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The ones i have looked at were made in southern californai. santa ana or costa measa i believe.

and u can be sure i will look into that for each boat cause some were made in the orient.
thanks. I'm retired and when i spend my boat money i won't be able to replace it so i want to cross all the T's and dot the i's

bfloyd,
I currently own a DeFever 48 and my last boat was a Marine Trader 36 Sedan that I sold last year after 6 years of ownership. Prior to those was an Albin. I have put thousand of miles on both and know a bit about the lines. I sent you a PM earlier. If you would like to discuss give me a call. I can't type all that I know.

I could be dead wrong but I've always been under the impression that deFever was a designer but not a builder. So deFever designs were built by all manner of yards, from a handful of steel-hull, wood topsides versions built in Mexico to wood boats built by American Marine in Kowloon (Alaskans) to glass boats built in Taiwan and the US.

So unlike Grand Banks or Bayliner or Uniflite or Nordic Tug and other production boats built entirely by the parent company deFevers seem to be somewhat at the mervcy of whatever yard chose to contract for or license the design.

Again, I may well be wrong on this.

Marin said:

I could be dead wrong but I've always been under the impression that deFever was a designer but not a builder. So deFever designs were built by all manner of yards, from a handful of steel-hull, wood topsides versions built in Mexico to wood boats built by American Marine in Kowloon (Alaskans) to glass boats built in Taiwan and the US.

So unlike Grand Banks or Bayliner or Uniflite or Nordic Tug and other production boats built entirely by the parent company deFevers seem to be somewhat at the mervcy of whatever yard chose to contract for or license the design.

Again, I may well be wrong on this.

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I believe you are correct. Which is one of the difficulties is coming to grips with the different models, some of which are better than others. Quality can vary, depending on the yard that built them.

For frequent day fish trips , I would look at boats designed for that specific task.

Speed seems to be important to get to and return from the fish grounds , and is realistically ONLY found in plaining fish boats.

For the past decade or so DeFevers have been built at Pocta on mainland China. They are quite busy right now with the largest DeFever under construction at 70 feet. As previously mentioned, comparing thirty year old boats by "brand" is indeed a crap shoot.

For an experienced yacht type mate or surveyor, after 10 minutes aboard any vessel they'll quickly know if the previous owner(s) treated their boat well. That is why a pre-survey walk through by the right guy is helpful. Things to look for if the owner claims it to be in good shape and able to pass survey:

1. Junk laying around - neat or sloppy.
2. Water in bilge with an oil sheen on top
3. Clean ER, bilges and lazarette
4. Oil drips a no show, a few absorbents in place are OK
5. Water stains around interior windows
6. Boot stripe area foul or clean
7. Varnish, waxing and detailing up to date
8. Add ons (thrusters, instruments, wiring, diesel heat etc) done well
9. Covers for dinghy, windows, flybridge instruments in place and in good shape
10. Correct anchor and rode

Yup, 10 minutes will tell you if the boat is worth spending more time on, assuming you don't stand around and BS. If you are looking for a project boat, buy for the name brand, it will sell quicker if re-done correctly.

sunchaser said:

For the past decade or so DeFevers have been built at Pocta on mainland China. They are quite busy right now with the largest DeFever under construction at 70 feet. As previously mentioned, comparing thirty year old boats by "brand" is indeed a crap shoot.


For an experienced yacht type mate or surveyor, after 10 minutes aboard any vessel they'll quickly know if the previous owner(s) treated their boat well. That is why a pre-survey walk through by the right guy is helpful. Things to look for if the owner claims it to be in good shape and able to pass survey:

1. Junk laying around - neat or sloppy.
2. Water in bilge with an oil sheen on top
3. Clean ER, bilges and lazarette
4. Oil drips a no show, a few absorbents in place are OK
5. Water stains around interior windows
6. Boot stripe area foul or clean
7. Varnish, waxing and detailing up to date
8. Add ons (thrusters, instruments, wiring, diesel heat etc) done well
9. Covers for dinghy, windows, flybridge instruments in place and in good shape
10. Correct anchor and rode

Yup, 10 minutes will tell you if the boat is worth spending more time on, assuming you don't stand around and BS. If you are looking for a project boat, buy for the name brand, it will sell quicker if re-done correctly.

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good advice thanks. What do you mean name brand? chb seem to be defever clones but definately not defevers. Boats built under license as defevers seem to be better than others, at least the few i have seen. I've only seen chb, defevers and GB's. Still like the design of the gb32 but good ones are pricy

FF said:

For frequent day fish trips , I would look at boats designed for that specific task.

Speed seems to be important to get to and return from the fish grounds , and is realistically ONLY found in plaining fish boats.

Click to expand...

In all the times I've been out speed was only an issue if the anglers were impatient to fish or at the other end impatient for the cocktail lounge or restruant. Well, it is kinda fun to blast over waves for about two waves worth, wakes everyone up
My daughter used to laugh at the boats speeding past us to get to the fishing grounds first then after an hour they would blast off to another spot. We would just putt alone and would eventually catch fish. I remember one day when she was 9-10 saying," dad, how can those guys catch any fish if all they do is race from place to place, you cant fish at that speed can you dad".

bfloyd4445 said:

Boats built under license as defevers seem to be better than others, at least the few i have seen.

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DeFever designs appear to me to be more complex aka labor intensive to build assuming one follows the design accurately. This may be one reason that these boats tend to be well made--- the yards building them are willing to take the time to do it right which, of course, is reflected in the price of the boat.

CHBs, like many of the so-called Taiwan Trawlers, were aimed at a "mass market" if it can be said there is such a thing in this kind of boat. So the parent company made the hulls and then farmed them out to local boatyards for completion. This is why their build quality tends to wander all over the map, at least in the boats from the 70s and 80s. Each yard used somewhat different methods and materials even within a particular boat brand.

This is really the only major contribution American Marine brought to the table with their Grand Banks line of boats. First in wood and then in glass, every one of them was made by the same people in the same yard to the same specs using the same materials, systems, and hardware. GBs are well made boats, but there are other boats that are just as well made. What GB did/does is offer consistency.

More recently the same can be said for Nordic Tug, Hatteras, Nordhavn and so on.

Marin said:

DeFever designs appear to me to be more complex aka labor intensive to build assuming one follows the design accurately. This may be one reason that these boats tend to be well made--- the yards building them are willing to take the time to do it right which, of course, is reflected in the price of the boat.

CHBs, like many of the so-called Taiwan Trawlers, were aimed at a "mass market" if it can be said there is such a thing in this kind of boat. So the parent company made the hulls and then farmed them out to local boatyards for completion. This is why their build quality tends to wander all over the map, at least in the boats from the 70s and 80s. Each yard used somewhat different methods and materials even within a particular boat brand.

This is really the only major contribution American Marine brought to the table with their Grand Banks line of boats. First in wood and then in glass, every one of them was made by the same people in the same yard to the same specs using the same materials, systems, and hardware. GBs are well made boats, but there are other boats that are just as well made. What GB did/does is offer consistency.

More recently the same can be said for Nordic Tug, Hatteras, Nordhavn and so on.

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I am new to this game but i have already noticed the consistant quality with GB's. There dosent seem to be many Nordic Tugs, Hatteras or Nordhavins out this way to look at. Most seem to reside on the east coast.

I believe many popular Taiwanese trawlers of the past were designed by respected naval architects -- Arthur DeFever, Bill Garden, Edwin Monk Sr/Jr, and so on. Floyd Ayres got credit for some of the early Marine Trader/CHB designs. They seem to have been paid for their original design work by the client/importer/yard that commissioned it but royalties on ongoing production was spotty. And yards/importers often massaged designs on their own to produce "new" or bigger models, often without consultation with the original designer.

So my theory is that the initial designs are sound (hence so many still around 40+ years later) but detail work and systems installation varied in quality depending on the yard (or at least the importer's supervision at the yard). Virtually all eastern trawlers were built to a price point. A Marine Trader might be a Chevy, my Formosa might be a Pontiac, Marin's GB may be a Buick, and some bigger more custom trawlers may be Cadillacs in their original market placement. But all these years on, the question may be: Is it better to have a well-maintained Chev or a clapped-out Caddy. That's why many replies mention the importance of current condition and owner history rather than original designer.

bfloyd4445 said:

I am new to this game but i have already noticed the consistant quality with GB's. There dosent seem to be many Nordic Tugs, Hatteras or Nordhavins out this way to look at. Most seem to reside on the east coast.

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Look a little further north. There are tons of Nordic Tugs, American Tugs, Nordhavns, etc. for sale in Washington and BC.

Joe is right. Nordic and American Tugs are made here in Washington. While American Tug is a newer entry into the market, Nordic Tugs have been in production since the early 80s. So there are lots of used models to pick from. Most popular and numerous sizes are the original 26', the 32' and the 34'.

GBs, CHBs, and all the other similar makes are numerous here because the waters from here up through SE Alaska are exactly the sort of environment all these boats were designed for in the first place.

Tollycrafts are all over the place up here, again partly because they were made here and partly because this environment is what they were designed for.

The downside to the large presence of all these types of boats in this area is the higher prices they tend to command in comparison to places like California, the Gulf, Florida, and the east coast. While the economy has changed a lot since 1998, when we bought our old GB the same model, year, and condition of GB36 that we found and bought in the SFO Bay area cost about $15k to $20k more up here simply because the 1000 mile-long, inside waters cruising ground we have here puts a premium price on boats that are so well designed for it.

the tugs seem so small even though i have not inspected one yet in person and tolly's have kinda flat bottoms that don't look like sea boats just delta boats. The willards are sailboat hulls with not much room inside. I'll just have to keep kicking tires. After thanksgiving i am going to look at a few in so cal. I'll bet there is little water damage to the topsides on ones from down there. Most seem to be single engine ford lehmans