Another new start for Helmsman

Helmsman said:

Just an update. It looks like our 38E will be offloaded in Miami around the 10th of December. We tried for a Gulf delivery, but just weren't able to get that worked out for our boat at this time. Now, if we can just lock down what we need to have ready for the trip....

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Congratulations

Helmsman said:

Just an update. It looks like our 38E will be offloaded in Miami around the 10th of December. We tried for a Gulf delivery, but just weren't able to get that worked out for our boat at this time. Now, if we can just lock down what we need to have ready for the trip....

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Good to hear you have confirmation, even if it's not your preferred destination. The positive side is a little more time to get ready. We'll be following your progress with great interest.

The container ship carrying our 38E just left the port of Busan, South Korea, the last stop before Seattle. Our current ETA is now November 10, but it's been kind of fluid. We'll probably fill that time with last minute preparations and agonizingly watching the ship's progress across the Pacific.

Good news for you both!

Yay! Congrats to you both! Doug, I Have been watching the container ship with your boat on it daily! I’m certain the wait is agonizing! Hopefully our boat won’t be far behind you! Keep updating us as to the progress of your boat!

For most of the voyage, the ship is out of range of terrestrial AIS and won’t show its current position on vessel tracking apps. I discovered that opening MarineTraffic.com in a browser and selecting “Past Track” for the vessel allows you to see both the last VHF AIS position and the current satellite position without having to pay for the satellite data. You may have too zoom out and look where the ship’s track should put it.

Doug_Snider said:

For most of the voyage, the ship is out of range of terrestrial AIS and won’t show its current position on vessel tracking apps. I discovered that opening MarineTraffic.com in a browser and selecting “Past Track” for the vessel allows you to see both the last VHF AIS position and the current satellite position without having to pay for the satellite data. You may have too zoom out and look where the ship’s track should put it.

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Good tip!

I happened to get a good deal on a Vulcan Rocna 20 (45 lb) anchor the other day, so I bought it. (There is one for sale on EBay for a good price right now). I will use the Bruce type anchor as a back up to the Rocna.


FWT had mentioned that the Bail would need to be replaced if one decided to go with the Vulcan Rocna. Does anyone know the correct size Bail to be used with the Rocna?

Helmsman said:

I happened to get a good deal on a Vulcan Rocna 20 (45 lb) anchor the other day, so I bought it. (There is one for sale on EBay for a good price right now). I will use the Bruce type anchor as a back up to the Rocna.


FWT had mentioned that the Bail would need to be replaced if one decided to go with the Vulcan Rocna. Does anyone know the correct size Bail to be used with the Rocna?

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It's a shame that you bought the wrong anchor for such a fine boat! Just kidding. The Vulcan is a great choice in my opinion. I bought an Ultra a couple years ago and love it. I saw West Marine recently posting a sale on all Rocna anchors at 40% off. That doesn't necessarilly mean a great deal, but occasionally West marine can be competitive when they run some good sales. Good luck regardless!

Helmsman said:

I happened to get a good deal on a Vulcan Rocna 20 (45 lb) anchor the other day, so I bought it. (There is one for sale on EBay for a good price right now). I will use the Bruce type anchor as a back up to the Rocna.


FWT had mentioned that the Bail would need to be replaced if one decided to go with the Vulcan Rocna. Does anyone know the correct size Bail to be used with the Rocna?

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FWIW:

I believe there is a bail bar / rod standard on the forward top corners, across the top. But going from pictures of a Vulcan on a Helmsman roller, the top edge of the anchor shank runs higher. IE it won't fit under the bail when snugged up tight. It appears to be truly no big deal to remove the bail. The pictures I have of a Vulcan on a Helmsman clearly do not have a bail of any kind. There are clearly holes to install one, or replace one that might come standard.

As for what might fit to replace it, I think pretty much anything that is hoop shaped, and fits the side to side dimension should work. Some hoops I've seen are made of flat stock, and others round stock. Whatever you fancy.

I don't know the side to side dimension. Its one of those things I figure I'll just measure and order when I have my boat. But perhaps one of the other owners can provide it.

One of the reasons I'm going slow on ordering a hoop bail, even if I had the dimension, is I want to observe the Vulcan action when being deployed. From the pictures its pretty evident it doesn't take much vertical dimension in the hoop when its snugged up tight. But what I want to see is how the top tip of the shank behaves when being deployed. Does the tip swing up high as the anchor is lowered? By how much?

As I picture the final installation, I see the hoop bail leaning forward on a 45 degree angle, which SHOULD allow for any kind of motion the Vulcan might have.

But all just a theory and guess until I can see the reality.

I don't see it being useful as something the Vulcan will wedge up against. Merely something to prevent the rare instance of the anchor jumping out of the roller and clang around if pounding into serious waves. Until the straight bail is replaced with a hoop, one can just use a short length of light line to lash it down in some fashion, if you feel there is any chance of this happening before the next time you anchor.

My two cents.

backinblue said:

It's a shame that you bought the wrong anchor for such a fine boat! Just kidding. The Vulcan is a great choice in my opinion. I bought an Ultra a couple years ago and love it. I saw West Marine recently posting a sale on all Rocna anchors at 40% off. That doesn't necessarilly mean a great deal, but occasionally West marine can be competitive when they run some good sales. Good luck regardless!

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I am impressed with what I see about the Ultra. I had pretty much settled on getting one. But the Vulcan had two advantages. 1) from memory its 25% of the cost of the Vulcan, and 2) one can massage the test stats to say the Vulcan has a slight edge in performance. I would not hang my hat on the performance advantage since they both seem to do very well in the kinds of bottom I expect to mostly see. The Ultra, being stainless, is darned pretty. It has that going for it. At the price, though, I could not quite swallow it. For a while I was concerned the Vulcan would not fit the Helmsman roller, but I was shown an example on a Helmsman where it can and does. Problem solved, and money saved.

The Vulcan is definitely a good pick. Although I'd be concerned that a 45 lb one is too small. It's a size smaller than Rocna recommends for an H38. FWIW, I went a size above their recommendation and have a 73 lb one on my boat (very close in size to an H38, but about 8000 lbs lighter).

rslifkin said:

The Vulcan is definitely a good pick. Although I'd be concerned that a 45 lb one is too small. It's a size smaller than Rocna recommends for an H38. FWIW, I went a size above their recommendation and have a 73 lb one on my boat (very close in size to an H38, but about 8000 lbs lighter).

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Actually, the Vulcan website has two selection aids. In one you input boat length and weight. The V25 is their recommendation there for a 39 ft. boat weighing 39k pounds. The H38 has a dry weight of 30k pounds.

Then there is a table. The V25 is in the middle of the range. Going down to a V20 puts you into a recommendation for a 22k pound boat or less. Going up to a V33 puts you into recommended boat weight of 66k pounds or less. A V33 seems excessive, in spite of the standard advice to go up a size.

Further, my concerns up front were whether a V25 would fit the boat. It will. But going up to a V33 might well be pushing it too far. And the V25 selection seems to have more than enough extra heft built into the selection.

https://rocna.com/fitment-guide/

Then you get into chain. H38 comes with 200ft of 5/16 HT chain.

If I read the fitment chart correctly, go up to a V33 and 3/8 chain is recommended. And then you get into windlass, and so forth.

Taken altogether, it seems to me the V25 is plenty, and going further creates a series of issues.

FWT said:

Actually, the Vulcan website has two selection aids. In one you input boat length and weight. The V25 is their recommendation there for a 39 ft. boat weighing 39k pounds. The H38 has a dry weight of 30k pounds.

Then there is a table. The V25 is in the middle of the range. Going down to a V20 puts you into a recommendation for a 22k pound boat or less. Going up to a V33 puts you into recommended boat weight of 66k pounds or less. A V33 seems excessive, in spite of the standard advice to go up a size.

Further, my concerns up front were whether a V25 would fit the boat. It will. But going up to a V33 might well be pushing it too far. And the V25 selection seems to have more than enough extra heft built into the selection.

https://rocna.com/fitment-guide/

Then you get into chain. H38 comes with 200ft of 5/16 HT chain.

If I read the fitment chart correctly, go up to a V33 and 3/8 chain is recommended. And then you get into windlass, and so forth.

Taken altogether, it seems to me the V25 is plenty, and going further creates a series of issues.

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I agree that the 25kg should be fine, my choice of the 33kg on a similar size boat was a case of "it'll take the same effort to make either one fit and I like overkill". As far as weight, I'd use loaded weight, not dry weight. My own boat is a little over 27k loaded (plus people), I'd figure an H38 is around 35k loaded (based on the 8k difference in dry weight, but similar capacity for fuel, water, etc.).


As far as chain size, I'd just ignore their recommendation. Sizing chain to the anchor is pointless, it should be sized to the load the boat in question will apply in the worst weather you want to design for. That led me to sticking with 5/16" G43 chain. Yes, the anchor can hold well enough to hurt the chain in a good bottom, but realistically, it'll never get pulled on that hard. The bigger anchor is for better holding when the bottom is crap.

Hey all, while we are on anchors…we will upgrade to the Vulcan with a Mantus swivel sometime this spring. But I have a concern that may or may not be valid. The stock boat has 200’ of chain. We would like more total rode for anchoring in deeper water, especially in deeper anchorages in Desolation Sound and the Inside Passage (this concept will be foreign to our southeast and Gulf coast friends). We are toying with adding a stock-purchased 25’ chain—using a connecting link—that is then spliced to 100’ of braid. This allows for substantial scope in a big blow. And in the worst case of a fouled and irretrievable anchor, you can use bolt cutters and still have substantial rode left over to attach your spare anchor to. Like groundings, we are just between fouled anchors.

Am I over-thinking this? Do not ask my spouse that rhetorical question.

On the boat this evening in Seattle where it is windy, cold, wet and to a drought-plagued Californian, lovely.

Jeff

Hydraulicjump said:

Hey all, while we are on anchors…we will upgrade to the Vulcan with a Mantus swivel sometime this spring. But I have a concern that may or may not be valid. The stock boat has 200’ of chain. We would like more total rode for anchoring in deeper water, especially in deeper anchorages in Desolation Sound and the Inside Passage (this concept will be foreign to our southeast and Gulf coast friends). We are toying with adding a stock-purchased 25’ chain—using a connecting link—that is then spliced to 100’ of braid. This allows for substantial scope in a big blow. And in the worst case of a fouled and irretrievable anchor, you can use bolt cutters and still have substantial rode left over to attach your spare anchor to. Like groundings, we are just between fouled anchors.

Am I over-thinking this? Do not ask my spouse that rhetorical question.

On the boat this evening in Seattle where it is windy, cold, wet and to a drought-plagued Californian, lovely.

Jeff

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Couldn't you accomplish the same thing by just splicing some nylon line to the 200' of chain? In fact, I would probably go with more than 100' if that was the case. You'd save a little weight by not adding another 25' of chain. Also, if this is your solution for a blow, I might lose a little sleep worrying about the connecting link.

FWT said:

I am impressed with what I see about the Ultra. I had pretty much settled on getting one. But the Vulcan had two advantages. 1) from memory its 25% of the cost of the Vulcan, and 2) one can massage the test stats to say the Vulcan has a slight edge in performance. I would not hang my hat on the performance advantage since they both seem to do very well in the kinds of bottom I expect to mostly see. The Ultra, being stainless, is darned pretty. It has that going for it. At the price, though, I could not quite swallow it. For a while I was concerned the Vulcan would not fit the Helmsman roller, but I was shown an example on a Helmsman where it can and does. Problem solved, and money saved.

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I can't disagree with those points. For my boat, it wasn't an extraordinary expense. Yes it was more expensive than others, but not enough to blow the boat budget. Besides appearance, stainless has the advantage of coming up much cleaner with usually nothing clinging to it. Their swivel is also worth a look. The way it flips the anchor into position works every time. It appears to be robust and well-made.

It appears you kinda have to use the Ultra swivel with the Ultra anchor. Due to the design of the attachment hole at the end of the shank. I didn't go far looking at the swivel because of my change in direction, but there are reports out there of the swivel failing in a strong side load. I had a mental note to track down how real / serious that was.

I'm going with a Mantus swivel. Which may well be overkill, but at some point you stop studying and pull triggers.

backinblue said:

Couldn't you accomplish the same thing by just splicing some nylon line to the 200' of chain? In fact, I would probably go with more than 100' if that was the case. You'd save a little weight by not adding another 25' of chain. Also, if this is your solution for a blow, I might lose a little sleep worrying about the connecting link.

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Agreed, I'd rather just splice line right onto the chain. And I wouldn't necessarily limit it to just 100 feet. I'd take a look at what will fit in the chain locker and decide from there.

backinblue has a great suggestion in splicing line on to the 200' chain. The extra rode is useful up north in many of the deep inlets. The Bruce anchor which came with the 38E worked really well in mud and sand, but not as well in rocky bottoms (as expected). Many of the pubs on cruising the PNW also describe what types of bottom exist in the anchorages, so you can plan ahead. The 46 comes with a 66# stainless Bruce with 300 feet of 3/8" chain. I'm very happy about that. I'll stay with the Bruce. I'm still undecided about a spare, and that could be a Rocna.

The 55 lb Rocna is what Two Truths replaced the oversized Mantus 65 lb with. I might return the 45 lb, or I may keep it. He had reported good results on this forum.

Hydraulicjump said:

Hey all, while we are on anchors…we will upgrade to the Vulcan with a Mantus swivel sometime this spring. But I have a concern that may or may not be valid. The stock boat has 200’ of chain. We would like more total rode for anchoring in deeper water, especially in deeper anchorages in Desolation Sound and the Inside Passage (this concept will be foreign to our southeast and Gulf coast friends). We are toying with adding a stock-purchased 25’ chain—using a connecting link—that is then spliced to 100’ of braid. This allows for substantial scope in a big blow. And in the worst case of a fouled and irretrievable anchor, you can use bolt cutters and still have substantial rode left over to attach your spare anchor to. Like groundings, we are just between fouled anchors.

Am I over-thinking this? Do not ask my spouse that rhetorical question.

On the boat this evening in Seattle where it is windy, cold, wet and to a drought-plagued Californian, lovely.

Jeff

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I believe the recommended line size for the windlass that comes with the 38 is 9/16th line. That could be augmented by a 3/4” or 1” snubber attached to the chain for a big blow. I think many would recommend a snubber made of 3/4” 3 strand nylon. I think this question might best be answered by one of the Helmsman team.

chanprr said:

backinblue has a great suggestion in splicing line on to the 200' chain. The extra rode is useful up north in many of the deep inlets. The Bruce anchor which came with the 38E worked really well in mud and sand, but not as well in rocky bottoms (as expected). Many of the pubs on cruising the PNW also describe what types of bottom exist in the anchorages, so you can plan ahead. The 46 comes with a 66# stainless Bruce with 300 feet of 3/8" chain. I'm very happy about that. I'll stay with the Bruce. I'm still undecided about a spare, and that could be a Rocna.

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I'd suggest 8 plait over 3 strand nylon. Works better with the windlass and stores easier and flatter as it is much more flexible. Highly recommend New England Rope.

Helmsman said:

I believe the recommended line size for the windlass that comes with the 38 is 9/16th line. That could be augmented by a 3/4” or 1” snubber attached to the chain for a big blow. I think many would recommend a snubber made of 3/4” 3 strand nylon. I think this question might best be answered by one of the Helmsman team.

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A quick search says it comes with a Lewmar V3. If that's what you're getting on yours, it looks like the gypsy for 5/16" G43 will take 5/8" line. That's the same sizing I use, although I wouldn't mind going up to 3/4" line to better match the working load of the chain. Using a stronger, less stretchy line (such as Samson Tenex) and just always using a snubber for stretch would also get more strength without needing to go bigger than 5/8".

rslifkin said:

A quick search says it comes with a Lewmar V3. If that's what you're getting on yours, it looks like the gypsy for 5/16" G43 will take 5/8" line. That's the same sizing I use, although I wouldn't mind going up to 3/4" line to better match the working load of the chain. Using a stronger, less stretchy line (such as Samson Tenex) and just always using a snubber for stretch would also get more strength without needing to go bigger than 5/8".

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General rule of thumb is that line size is 2x chain size, which matches strength and (typically) gypsy compatibility. Make sure you prioritize matching the gypsy or you will be fighting it forever.

Good plan overall IMO.

guy with a boat said:

General rule of thumb is that line size is 2x chain size, which matches strength and (typically) gypsy compatibility. Make sure you prioritize matching the gypsy or you will be fighting it forever.

Good plan overall IMO.

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Strength-wise, 5/16" G43 and 5/8" 8 plait are pretty close. But the working load of the chain is still higher than the line. 3/4" 8 plait is stronger than the chain, but much closer in working load.

backinblue said:

I'd suggest 8 plait over 3 strand nylon. Works better with the windlass and stores easier and flatter as it is much more flexible. Highly recommend New England Rope.

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Sorry, probably wasn’t clear in my post. The 3 strand recommendation is for the snubber.

I agree 3-strand is fine for snubber, but 8-plait better suited to rode. Also agree don't go bigger than what your gypsy is designed for or you'll struggle with it. Also, if you are splicing line to chain, you may not get 3/4" 8-plait to fit in a link of 5/16 chain. Even if you do, the splice is a bit complex and kind of fat so you may have trouble feeding that splice through your gypsy and into your hawse.

IMHO, if you are in conditions where you are snapping 5/8" nylon, you probably have bigger issues to worry about.

Another idea on checklists

My experience in naval aviation and private flying taught me of the value of checklists. The Helmsman Trawlers checklist information that I have received from other TF users is very useful but I wanted to put it in a usable and accessible format that can be easily updated. I found an aviation app, MiraCheck Co-Pilot, that works perfectly (Some people have used it for recipes). The checklists can be used hands-free with audio prompts and voice responses. Checklists can include text, bulleted lists, graphics, tables, links and many more. They can be printed to beautifully formatted hard copy checklists. The app runs on PCs and mobile devices, including the Apple Watch. Checklists can be easily shared with other users of the app and exported to several formats. There is a free version but the best features require the Pro version for $99. If it helps avoid one stupid mistake, it’s money well spent. It is also keeping me busy while we wait for our 38E to slowly makes its way across the Pacific for the next eleven days.

https://www.miracheck.com/

Would be good for creating a checklist for items which need periodic service. I created a handy reference list of service periods taken from various op manuals, which had engine oil/filter, transmission oil/filter, Racor, webasto, dripless shaft seal, genset oil/filter, windlass, etc. and a reminder to change batteries in remotes, and webasto thermostat annually. The first service on a 38E would be a transmission oil/filter change at 25 hours if you have a ZF transmission. Regular maintenance means more enjoyable times on the water. If you're handy with tools, doing the service jobs yourself can be rewarding, and you get to learn where everything is on the boat!!

chanprr said:

Would be good for creating a checklist for items which need periodic service. I created a handy reference list of service periods taken from various op manuals, which had engine oil/filter, transmission oil/filter, Racor, webasto, dripless shaft seal, genset oil/filter, windlass, etc. and a reminder to change batteries in remotes, and webasto thermostat annually. The first service on a 38E would be a transmission oil/filter change at 25 hours if you have a ZF transmission. Regular maintenance means more enjoyable times on the water. If you're handy with tools, doing the service jobs yourself can be rewarding, and you get to learn where everything is on the boat!!

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I am starting to compile a scheduled maintenance list that probably won’t be completed until January when I have an opportunity to go through the maintenance lists in the manuals. With the engine serial number, you can pull in suggested maintenance on the Cummins engine. That will be a start.

My approach will be a handwritten ship’s log, which will have operational notes, such as fuel tank changes, pump outs, etc. as well as trip notes. Then an excel based planned maintenance log, with a page for unplanned maintenance. The unplanned maintenance will be compiled quarterly from the ships log, with images of the invoices uploaded. All of the part numbers, serial numbers, etc. will also be part of it.

I found this approach helpful and a time saver with a previous boat, and was a big selling point, when I let the last one go.