self-insured anyone?

does anyone have information regarding self insuring your own vessel.

Mainly for marina requirements with around 300K lability.

Many years ago as a commercial fishing boat owner. And at times with a private boat. I've nobody recent to recommend. If you have the cash, the best way was a bank deposit. Otherwise there's many bonding companies.
Fishing the rates were high enough to buy a new boat in 9 years.
Now I have a 1942 Wheeler, wood, 83'. I use Hagerty. I don't hit things. Currently just liability about $2,000 for a million liability. US and Canadian waters to 25 miles out. For tuna and crossing the Gulf of Alaska I'm more than 25 miles out but not likely to need liability. If the boat sinks, I'm 74, I'll probably be with it so full coverage doesn't do me much good.

If your boat has a good survey Hagerty is probably the best for older wood boats.
Full coverage price depends on the value. When I had it on this boat it was 6Gs.
LLoyds of London is another choice. They spread the liability over several partner firms. More for ships or high liability boats. Price wasn't too bad.

My marina has required $300k liability insurance for years, now they're planning to up the requirement to $1M

What about oil spill protection?

Been $1m everywhere I’ve been for awhile.

I'd be happy to self insure but pretty sure in Oz it's $10 million needed for wreck removal and liabilities.
And we aren't a litigious society.

In Australia $10M Liability is standard.
IMO, "self insuring"(really NOT insuring and accepting the risk yourself),might be ok for your own boat but for liability to others?? Maybe it depends on your financial position and appetite for risk, but I wouldn`t do it.

ofer said:

does anyone have information regarding self insuring your own vessel.

Mainly for marina requirements with around 300K lability.

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So what's your plan? Present yourself to the marina management with a stack of hundred dollar bills to satisfy their liability requirement? Post a bond with your local bail bond guy in lieu of carrying around $300K cash everywhere you go? That bond will probably cost you a bundle, even if you can find someone to issue such a bond on a mobile asset, and (per your avatar) an old wooden one at that. And as others have remarked, how will you plan to cover oil spill liability (fortunately limited to $1M by the US government, I think) should you manage to meet Mother Earth and spill some diesel oil? Not to mention personal injury. Seems to me property damage liability is a drop in the bucket in comparison.

Yikes. This idea seems REALLY off the wall, unless your pockets are WAY deeper than mine. Yeah, marine insurance is spendy and irksome, and hard to get in some locations, under some circumstances. But in my opinion, one of the fixed costs of this boating lifestyle that is irrefutable. And to operate self-insured seems irresponsible as well.

Regards,

Pete

Nothing wrong with carrying a liability only policy with enviro cleanup, but no hull policy. Is that what you’re referring to?

Mako said:

Nothing wrong with carrying a liability only policy with enviro cleanup, but no hull policy. Is that what you’re referring to?

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I agree, but the OP does sound like question was directed towards self-insuring against liability too.

As Lepke describes, liability-only insurance is an economical approach to cruising, but obviously shifts risk. Also requires boat has no loan against it. I've considered it myself.

Peter

Self insuring against liability is technically possible if you have sufficient money sitting around. But at the same time, I can't see the the cost vs risk working out in favor of it very often. Most of the time, you'd be better off paying for liability insurance (which shouldn't be all that expensive) and just self insuring the hull.

It's said that you should insure against financial catastrophe, not inconvenience. I dropped hull coverage because if I lost my boat, it would hurt financially but I wouldn't be wiped out. But with liability insurance being relatively cheap for what you get, it seems nuts to not take advantage of it.

Mako said:

Nothing wrong with carrying a liability only policy with enviro cleanup, but no hull policy. Is that what you’re referring to?

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yes, I am only looking for liability only. but even that is hard to find for wood boats.

I am happy for any information on brokers insurance companies

Pau Hana on the forum and I discussed liability only when Geico went on their tirade. Sold the boat before I had to decide but it seemed a LOT easier to get liability, salvage and environmental than the normal Yacht Policy.

If you are self-insured, how would you provide proof of insurance that is acceptable to a Marina?

twistedtree said:

If you are self-insured, how would you provide proof of insurance that is acceptable to a Marina?

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I have heard it's like a secured loan, you provide a bond or similar holding of asset(s) equal to that worth..... in escrow or equivalent....

I have heard of people doing it, just don't know the terminology.

Start with:
https://www.hagerty.com/insurance/boat-insurance/
Many insurance brokers sell Hagerty plans, but you can go direct. No savings.
You need a good survey.


In my experience, a bond is cheaper than the usual boat insurance if your in a higher risk category or commercial. And insurance will be going up as the latest hurricane settlements hit.

Lepke said:

You need a good survey.

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that's the big question. i have checked a couple of years ago and it seems like i need the wood survey that takes out fasteners etc.

I will not go that far.

Lepke said:

Many years ago as a commercial fishing boat owner. And at times with a private boat. I've nobody recent to recommend. If you have the cash, the best way was a bank deposit. Otherwise there's many bonding companies.
Fishing the rates were high enough to buy a new boat in 9 years.
Now I have a 1942 Wheeler, wood, 83'. I use Hagerty. I don't hit things. Currently just liability about $2,000 for a million liability. US and Canadian waters to 25 miles out. For tuna and crossing the Gulf of Alaska I'm more than 25 miles out but not likely to need liability. If the boat sinks, I'm 74, I'll probably be with it so full coverage doesn't do me much good.

If your boat has a good survey Hagerty is probably the best for older wood boats.
Full coverage price depends on the value. When I had it on this boat it was 6Gs.
LLoyds of London is another choice. They spread the liability over several partner firms. More for ships or high liability boats. Price wasn't too bad.

Click to expand...

Now that’s a real salt there. Love that go down with the ship attitude. Please post a picture of your 83 Wheeler.

BTW I met the great grandson of Wheeler, I believe Wes Wheeler at Brooklin Boat yard Maine where they built hull number one of a modern copy of Hemingway’s boat. It was a Wheeler of course. I saw it upside down being built and a year latter finished under sea trails. That’s were we were befriended by Bill Mayher and met the famous to us Maynard Bray https://www.offcenterharbor.com/maynard-bray/. We purchased our Fairchild Scout from Bill and Carolyn. Maynard says “wood is good”.

Also check out www.ofcenterharbor.com. It’s well worth the price of admission.

In addition to at least having basic liability, make sure you have a large umbrella for your land based assets, ie home etc. This is a very cheap form of insurance. I’m not sure if they have this for marine.

psneeld said:

I have heard it's like a secured loan, you provide a bond or similar holding of asset(s) equal to that worth..... in escrow or equivalent....



I have heard of people doing it, just don't know the terminology.

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I just can’t see having the conversation with a teenage marina office worker and making any reasonable progress in any reasonable time.

In theory you could do it. I just think it would make every stop a nightmare.

Also, an escrow has terms covering when it pays out, typically with a governing contract. So you essentially need to write and administer an insurance policy of your own. I just think the practicalities are way more difficult when you are covering third party claims.

Large corporate health insurance for employees is often self-insured, but in my experience it’s all administered through one of the name brand insurance companies, just with the Corp paying the bills rather than the insurance co.

ofer said:

that's the big question. i have checked a couple of years ago and it seems like i need the wood survey that takes out fasteners etc.

I will not go that far.

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Yes that seems to be the norm now for older planked hulls. I've seen it done a few times. They don't pull very many fasteners. It can discover problems that really need to be fixed.

The USCG did a big study after the El Toro II sinking back in the 90's on the Chesapeake.

It was a party fishing boat and nearly killed some 30+ fisherman.

The USCG nearly banned all wooden planked boats as commercial passenger vessels.

One of the findings I believe was there were either no or not enough fasteners pulled on its last survey/certification. It popped a garboard plank in heavy chop.

To me, the El Toro makes a frightening read.
The materials used seem more suited to build a garden shed

Yellow pine and galvanised nails?

EL TORO is described as a 58' party boat specifically designed for party fishing and built in Norfolk, Virginia in 1961. Typical of her type for that era and region, she has what is known as a "bay bottom," being transversely planked in 1.75" yellow pine on a longitudinal framing system. She has a 16.5' beam, draws 4.7' and is powered with a single 310 HP Detroit Diesel. Perhaps most significantly, she was fastened with galvanized cut nails. She is of a type well known to the region in which she operated.

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And further in after refloating the vessel

The consensus was that the hull was in remarkably good condition except for three sprung planks on the port side immediately forward of the forward engine room bulkhead. The inboard end of the planks had dropped about four inches from their normal position, leaving a gap in way of the keel of about two inches. With the exception of a single nail, all nails connecting these planks to the sister keelson had wasted totally through at the faying surface with the keelson."

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https://www.yachtsurvey.com/ELTORO.htm



All our fasteners are substantial silicone bronze screws and bolts and plenty of them going by the amount of them removed in a recent deck repair we did.
And 2 inch spotted gum hardwood used for planking

Simi 60 said:

To me, the El Toro makes a frightening read.
The materials used seem more suited to build a garden shed

Yellow pine and galvanised nails?



All our fasteners are substantial silicone bronze screws and bolts and plenty of them going by the amount of them removed in a recent deck repair we did.
And 2 inch spotted gum hardwood used for planking

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El Toro was definitely not a boat built with the intention of being in service nearly as long as she was, at least not without a major overhaul or 2.

Galvanized cut nails were a common fastener of the time and I have read where many a screwed together boat has sunk because of wood damage at the screw, If the wood is damaged, a screw is even worse than a nail.

Bottom line....sure construction and even more so maintenance on a planked hull is important. I have watched over my marine 2 careers entire fleets of wooden fishing boats sink. They aren't being replaced by wood.

Insurance is having a partner in funding risk. Risk is a measurement of the % chance of you incurring loss. That chance is never 0% so calculate your odds (and an insurance company knows these to the penny and will usually share the information), see what your comfort level is in living with those odds and writing the potentially big check, and act accordingly. If writing a $1m check for damages doesn't affect your lifestyle, you're likely in a good spot to self insure and can invest what you would be paying in premiums. I can't comfortably write that check so I use insurance as a partner in bearing my risk.

Tak

For my 1971 wood, I have Markel for $500K liability and oil spill only. It just went up $400 to $2,000/year.

Progressive insurance (online/website). I have liability only and the boat age, length, and make was all I supplied. Had them for 3 years now.

Takoradi said:

Insurance is having a partner in funding risk. Risk is a measurement of the % chance of you incurring loss. That chance is never 0% so calculate your odds (and an insurance company knows these to the penny and will usually share the information), see what your comfort level is in living with those odds and writing the potentially big check, and act accordingly. If writing a $1m check for damages doesn't affect your lifestyle, you're likely in a good spot to self insure and can invest what you would be paying in premiums. I can't comfortably write that check so I use insurance as a partner in bearing my risk.

Tak

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You're correct but the complication, at least where I live, is that the insurance companies are writing policies with more and more of the likely events specifically excluded from coverage. It's got to the point where one has to ask what disaster would even be covered. In many ways an element of self insurance is written into the policy either with exclusions or deductables.

A typical example would be a third part liability: good luck if colliding with another vessel is determined to be caused by an excluded 'wind event'.

Don't even get me started on diminishing coverage vs increasing rates.