E ticket ride in the rapids?

This captain (Camino 31?) doesn’t seem to require tide tables.

Screenshots from a video that wouldn’t upload.

stabilizers would help

Assuming the captain is a married man, I hope (for both of their sakes) his wife was not along for this misadventure. It may sound sexist to assume the "Captain" is a man, but I am confident that no woman put herself in such a situation.

It got worse but the tree blocked it. Spun 90 degrees.

Skookumchuck Rapids not to be messed with.
Up to 16 knot current.

Heard about this on Saturday, a Camano Troll in the rapids at the wrong time. All wet inside the boat when they stuffed the bow with the front hatch not secured. Arrived at the Garden Bay docks with both hus and wife extremely agitated. No wonder!
I don't know what time they headed into the rapids, but from the pix, it had to be running 14 knots.
Very Seaworthy boat! Helmsman (own the molds) should use this in their promos.

Very glad that they, and the boat, are safe.

Just recently took my lady through some rapids (Yuculta, Gillard, Dent) (at slack). I am thinking that I should not share this post with her !

Who in their right mind would try Skoocumchuck at max current? I've seen it from the shore and it even scared the hell out of me there.

Ken E. said:

Who in their right mind would try Skoocumchuck at max current? I've seen it from the shore and it even scared the hell out of me there.

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Clearly was NOT his intention.

One of my favorite videos of Skookumchuck Rapids is this tug and tow trying to sneak through on an opposing current.
The physics of this is obvious to anybody who has whitewater kayaking experience. You sneak up the side eddy (reverse current) until the reaching the tongue drop and try to power your way upstream. But the downstream tongue and the upstream eddy grabs and twists the bottom of the boat. A kayaker leans way out and plants the paddle to keep upright. Crossing a big shear is difficult in a kayak. Not possible in a tugboat. The hard chine that you can see (once the tug is upside down) was what caught the shear current and slowly flipped the boat over. It would be possible to flip like this in a semi-displacement trawler, which also has a hard chine for the eddy line to catch.

The kayakers in the video are there for a purpose. Good fun in a $400 plastic boat with full drysuit.

But what occurred to me was: what if the trawler in the original post had stabilizers.
One might be tempted to employ them when running through. Fins, paravanes, bilge keels could all cause bigger problems in this condition (as if miss-reading the current table wasn't problem enough). Probably as likely to flop you over as to stop a flop.

koliver said:

Clearly was NOT his intention.

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Keith
My guess? He read the current table bass akwards and thought slack was the peak current time. Skookum has claimed lives so lucky they are.

Marco Flamingo said:

One of my favorite videos of Skookumchuck Rapids is this tug and tow trying to sneak through on an opposing current.

The physics of this is obvious to anybody who has whitewater kayaking experience. You sneak up the side eddy (reverse current) until the reaching the tongue drop and try to power your way upstream. But the downstream tongue and the upstream eddy grabs and twists the bottom of the boat. A kayaker leans way out and plants the paddle to keep upright. Crossing a big shear is difficult in a kayak. Not possible in a tugboat. The hard chine that you can see (once the tug is upside down) was what caught the shear current and slowly flipped the boat over. It would be possible to flip like this in a semi-displacement trawler, which also has a hard chine for the eddy line to catch.

The kayakers in the video are there for a purpose. Good fun in a $400 plastic boat with full drysuit.

But what occurred to me was: what if the trawler in the original post had stabilizers.
One might be tempted to employ them when running through. Fins, paravanes, bilge keels could all cause bigger problems in this condition (as if miss-reading the current table wasn't problem enough). Probably as likely to flop you over as to stop a flop.

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That Tug capsize was due to the tow being too short for those conditions. When the tow passed the tug, it pulled the towboat over. The TSB report confirmed this. The current at the time of this event was well below maximum, that can be as much as 16 knots.

A tragic event occurred shortly before I joined RCMSAR, where a SAR boat was doing a training exercise in the rapids and flipped. 2 members had their lifejackets snag on other equipment in the boat and drowned. 2 others escaped but couldn't get to the trapped pair in time. The Saltspring SAR boat wears a memorial ribbon still.

A few more

bowball said:

A few more

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Bowball:

Thanks for the photos. These dangerous places need to be exposed for all of us. The Camano in these photos got through, luckily, without any injuries, without much to clean up on their boat, so will survive this event and recall it as merely an embarrassment and not a tragedy.
The next guys will take another look at the current tables and be sure they don't try going when unsure of the conditions.

Question, is there a recommended way to get through something like this if it's an emergency. Let's say someone had a stroke on board you are dealing with the golden hour to get them to help down stream of this. Would the strategy be just enough power to keep the bow pointed towards the standing water and/or from being swept into the shore? I am assuming the standing waves are probably in the 6-8' range so too much speed may create hazardous issues for a boat?

Bowball, is there a link to the video you can share?

RedRascal said:

Question, is there a recommended way to get through something like this if it's an emergency. Let's say someone had a stroke on board you are dealing with the golden hour to get them to help down stream of this. Would the strategy be just enough power to keep the bow pointed towards the standing water and/or from being swept into the shore? I am assuming the standing waves are probably in the 6-8' range so too much speed may create hazardous issues for a boat?

Bowball, is there a link to the video you can share?

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From the park you can watch the guys with enough speed to power through. that takes 20 knots plus. anyone with a medical emergency should be going the other way, to the back side of Sechelt rather than attempting a challenge that will likely fail.

Back in my sailing days I had a couple friends who were always looking for crew because thier wives refused to go with them. It only takes one bad experience.

I can only imagine how long it would take for me to separate myself from the helm chair (after recovering from the beating the Admiral would surely give me). I think the only member of our crew that might enjoy that ride would be the dog. He seems to think sliding around the decks in rough seas is fun...

There is no reason one would need to run the rapids. Emergency services can be had on either side of the rapids.

I believe RedRascal was asking about rapids in general, not this particular rapid.

I would expect if you needed to try to run through any kind of rapids, you want a fast enough boat with good steering authority. And run it like a nasty inlet: 1 hand on the wheel, 1 hand on the throttles.

RedRascal said:

Question, is there a recommended way to get through something like this if it's an emergency. Let's say someone had a stroke on board you are dealing with the golden hour to get them to help down stream of this. Would the strategy be just enough power to keep the bow pointed towards the standing water and/or from being swept into the shore? I am assuming the standing waves are probably in the 6-8' range so too much speed may create hazardous issues for a boat?

Bowball, is there a link to the video you can share?

Click to expand...

Your question prompts an interesting thought experiment. Some parts I’ve reasoned out before, and some now as I answer. My answers are based on considerable experience running such rapids in a heavy full displacement boat. And rivers in paddle boats. More medical training than most recreational boaters have. Including working with long distance medical support ashore.

The short answer is that in the event of a stroke, heart attack or other serious medical problem with a tight timeline there is not much you can do so it’s not worth the risk to yourself and everyone else aboard to run rapids like that.

I see you are in Bellevue. The Seattle metro area has one of the best if not the best response times and successes records in dealing with heart attack and stroke. Still so much depends upon timing, as you said the golden hour. Will you (or I), can you get the victim to care within 1 hr? Almost certainly not even on Puget Sound near major metro areas. At trawler speeds it’s possible even likely you will be an hour or several hours from a dock. And that dock may, likely, will not be immediately close to an emergency center equipped to handle stroke and heart attack. Then there’s the time to get the victim to highly skilled emergency care. The odds aren’t good. Now put your boat in a more remote area and how long to help, the how long to expert care? Because this thread is about Skookumhuck Narrows Skookumchuck and Sechelt a city of over 10K with a hospital are not really remote but you’re still about 16 nm from the docks at Sechelt when at the rapids. Your golden hour is more than gone before you get tied up.

But you asked, how to do it? Ok, here’s my input based mostly on 65ft, 78 tons, 8.5 cruise speed, 10.2 full speed. Obviously you can't make any progress swimming upstream when the current is anywhere near your boat’s full speed. Your question was about running downstream. So much of what you do will depend upon your boat’s characteristics, your experience and your skill. What I have learned is to go at just the right speed. Fast enough to have fast steering response but no faster. You need to be able to counter the upsets of the rapids NOW. As I said, depends upon your boat. Avoid if possible the standing waves if they’re big enough to stuff your bow. Obviously avoid whirlpools. In some rapids at some flow you will see areas of smooth water looking almost like a pillow slightly bulged up in the center. Stay away from those. They are often strong upwelling and will catch your keel or hard chines if you have them and try to upset your boat. Where do I go? Well my answer works for me only and what you do will again depend upon your boat and your skill. I look for the VEE fomed by the fast water and aim for the center of the VEE. Yes, it will be FAST. But you will have the best chance of missing standing waves, whrilpools and that smooth stuff I don’t have a name for.

Give some serious thought to speed of the current. Let’s say Skookumchuck is running 16 kts and you require 7 kts for fast steering you are now doing 23 kts over the bottom. Whatchagonnado if something goes wrong? Nothing except take your lumps.

You ask about the risk of hitting shore. Unless you lose directional control end up facing shore and fail to reduce speed the changes of hitting shore are actually pretty low. The faster water is in the deeper parts usually center or near center. Drop her into neutral, maybe even back down and that is most likely where she’ll go. This needs to be tempered by the bottom topography. If there is a large rock or shoal in the channel it can create back eddies and that changes everything.

There are good reasons to stay center channel as much as possible because the sides is where the back eddies will likely form. Get one end of the boat in the main current and the other in the back eddie and you will spin around. Not much you can do to counter it. You can with experience and skill learn to use back eddies to your benefit. This is where experience running rivers will help.


There is one thing you can try and I don’t recommend it until you really know your boat in these kinds of conditions and have considerable experience and skill. And have a compelling need. When the current is much faster than your boat run it backwards. That is bow pointed upstream with enough power on for good steerage and let the current sweep you downstream faster over the bottom than you are running upstream through the water. The reason is a boat is under better control going upstream than downstream. Let’s go back to Skookumchuck at 16 kts and your boat at 7 kts, you’ll be making 9 kts good. I’ve done it and as I said I can’t recommend it. You have to be doubly careful not to hit standing waves with your stern. Nothing good will come of that.


Don't trust your autopilot. Manual steering is the only way to handle fast rapids.



All of this is about running downstream. Running upstream is all together different. But this response is long enough already.

Back to your location being Bellevue. Deception Pass Narrows and Tacoma Narrows are great places to build your skill. They are relatively straight and easy to read. Deception pass will give you opportunities to learn about riding the VEE, staying clear of whirlpools and at times sizeable standing waves. Tacoma Narrows throws in learning about back eddies downstream of the bridge and south of Pt Defiance.

Start in about 3 to 4 kts current and work you way up as you learn your boat and skills. In Deception pass you see a significant difference between 3 and 4 kts current.

And once again so much is about the boat. The heavy boat most of this experience is based on is what I ran for much of my career. My personal boat I mess about in now is a Californian 42 LRC. It is a whole nother thing and I’m still learning it. It gets thrown around a lot more by the currents. But it will do 12 kts if I want to burn the fuel. I went back to running Deception Pass at 3 kts up and downstream and built up from there. Another boat I have considerable experience with is a KK 42. Handling that in the rapids is yet another thing all together.

A final note about going to Deception Pass school of rapids running. Don’t try it on a summer weekend when the fish are running. All the sport fishing boats will limit your options and complicate things.


And, most importantly, this is my opinion based on my experience. Take it easy, start easy, build the skill and experience a bit at a time.

WOW

I am surprised that a trawler could even make it through this.

porman said:

I believe RedRascal was asking about rapids in general, not this particular rapid.

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Correct...my bad for not qualifying my question as "hypothetical". I should probably add 35-40' SD boat with a speed of 9 knots at full throttle.

As for this set of rapids good to know EMS is on either side.

By chance, I recently met the skipper of this vessel. He agreed to let me post some remarks on his behalf and I copy the skipper´s text here:
__________________________________________

Like commercial aircraft accidents, it’s rarely one thing that causes them but a series of human errors, sometimes preceded by a mechanical failure or failures. The skipper, who is actually quite experienced, fully admits that he made a series of mistakes. Here is the play-by-play:

The marine store the skipper frequents was out of tide and current tables, other stores he visited were also out of stock and due to the logistics of the voyage this ball was dropped. He was unaware until very recently that the tables could be downloaded.

To address his need for data corroboration absent the tables, the skipper spoke with seemingly experienced local commercial and recreational mariners who said that they relied on the Navionics data for Sechelt Rapids as it was consistent with other information sources based on their direct experience.

To be fair to the mariners giving said advice, Navionics data was/is accurate for Sechelt Rapids in most cases; for example, the skipper had used the data and transited into the Inlet at slack 10 days earlier with no issues. The data, however, was dead wrong with this near-tragedy. Slack on August 12th according to Navionics was at 11:38 am but, in fact, it was peak ebb at 14 kts at that time.

On the infamous day, as he approached the rapids using the lower helm station, there was visible froth from a distance but it was deceivingly tame-looking. This is because the entire body of water sloped downwards from the froth which, in fact, was the crest of a monster standing wave with more to follow.

When milliseconds mattered, confirmation bias got in the way, i.e., the tendency of the human brain to favour data that is consistent with a belief and unconsciously reject that which isn’t. In this case, as numerous vessels, including a fast trawler, were transiting the rapids just prior to entry, ‘it must be ok’ came to mind… and ‘it’s a full moon, must be a strong slack’… ‘Navionics was accurate on the way in’ and so on. Previous time was wasted with confirmation bias… and then it was too late to abort.

A fellow mariner had complained to Navionics about the Sechelt Rapids data over 18 months ago and nothing was done. The skipper and this fellow emailed a directly worded series of ‘code red’ emails to Navionics/Garmin, imploring them to immediately take action, otherwise, lives would be lost. Even though they are fond of reminding users not to use Navionics for navigation, there’s a lot of folks relying heavily on Navionics for navigation. After some prodding, here is their response:

“Thank you for your continued patience on this matter. We have been able to complete our review and will be removing the tidal data from the Sechelt area. We plan to complete the removal of this data as early as Monday [Sept. 5, 2022] in both our mobile applications as well as our cartography data. Once we have completed these actions, we will contact you to let you know that the data has been removed. We strive to have the most accurate data as possible in our cartography and will look for ways to further improve the data in this area. These are longer term improvements but would be happy to remain in touch as we progress those efforts. Additionally, we will be contacting any other customers who have contacted us about this area and letting them know of these changes.”

The skipper and colleague are still awaiting confirmation that the data has been removed. In the meantime, mariners beware! It appears that Navionics has heard about the issue from others as well but chose to do nothing. The skipper subsequently heard from a boater who ran aground relying on Navionics. Other chartplotters have had grievous errors.

The overarching recommendations from this story: resist the sense of comfort and complacency that is commonly seen with electronic aids like Navionics. Ensure you have the up-to-date official tables always on hand but even then, use multiple sources to corroborate whenever possible. Beware of confirmation bias. Have time-tested safety procedures and never stray from them. If your gut doesn’t feel right, things aren’t right. Following the precautionary principle – if there is ANY doubt, leave yourself enough time to back out.

Finally, in terms of posting etiquette the skipper would like to convey the following:

The skipper and his wife continue to suffer from post-traumatic stress. This thread, including images and commentary, triggered it over Labour Day weekend when they became aware of it and saw the photos and commentary.

The skippers’ wife takes great exception to certain posts, is vastly more confident in their Camano and its skipper since the incident - they have been on two trips since and look forward to many more years of boating, duly wiser of course.

The vessel was battened down and there were no open hatches so the post stating the front hatch was open is either misinformed or invented it for reasons unknown. A litre of salt water made it into the bilge via the engine room vents and that was it.

Given the mayhem it is understandable if the skipper panicked. Instead, he applied full throttle and hard-over helm actions as needed to get out safely.

Given the Camano is a single engine vessel, he spares no expense in maintaining it and tests the vessel regularly to ensure the engine can reach rated RPM in a hurry and accommodate several hard-over helm actions in rapid sequence if need be.

Any mariner who says they’ve never made a serious dumb mistake (albeit not as serious and dumb as this one) either moors at the dock 24x7 and only in flat calm conditions or is not telling the truth. Posters are encouraged to be sensitive in what they post: we’re all in this together.

The skipper and his bride wanted their story to be shared here (as it will be shared elsewhere) in the interest of the safety and well-being of fellow boaters. They now regularly raise a glass or two in honour of the Camano Troll and its gifted creator, Bob Warman, who was asked to design the perfect fast trawler for the Pacific North West.

Bad Navionics data got my dinghy stranded a few hundred feet from the water several years back. I’ve seen it wrong for most of the BC rapids at one time or another. Enough that I look at the government publications whenever it really matters. Glad things worked out for these folks!

I’d like to thank them for taking the time and ownership to explain this so we can all learn. Much like the Nordhavn that was lost when it crossed a breakwater back east.

I can understand his thoughts process in the moment with one exception I’ll note below.

My rule here would be complacency or relying on others or non official sources can possibly be “cheated” when the possible outcome isnt severe - meaning far lesser rapids where all it costs you is fuel burn . In this case, the outcome or rapids are too severe to be ignored and would need all green lights from all sources to proceed. As an airplane example was mentioned, and as a pilot, that’s why commercial pilots sometimes land at different airports or on the taxi strip. In other words, when the downside risk is large pre planning and execution require a no excuse approach. I’m just so paranoid of those major rapids I would be double and triple checking everything.

The only part of his response I don’t understand is “ In this case, as numerous vessels, including a fast trawler, were transiting the rapids just prior to entry…”

Transiting down at that point? Transiting up against 14 knots?

I’m having trouble trying to figure out how that is possible. I would think there would be no boats or boats going the other direction would have been long before and would have been a clue.

I’m very glad all are safe. Thank you for allowing us to learn from your mistake so we can try to avoid them ourselves. I used to read all the relevant airplane accident reports to try to learn as well.

And thank you for trying to get Navionics to correct their data. That was shocking and a reminder that I can never rely on that either. That was important.

bowball said:

The only part of his response I don’t understand is “ In this case, as numerous vessels, including a fast trawler, were transiting the rapids just prior to entry…”

Transiting down at that point? Transiting up against 14 knots?

I’m having trouble trying to figure out how that is possible. I would think there would be no boats or boats going the other direction would have been long before and would have been a clue.

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It was probably the Sunshine Coast Tours boat that runs through there on big exchanges. Both ways. They run crew boats and might be confused for a fast trawler. I've seen it go through there and I was amazed at how seamless the captain threaded the boat through. I've seen other crew boats go through without as much finesse as well.

https://www.sunshinecoasttours.ca/skookumchuck-narrows/

https://www.sunshinecoasttours.ca/boats/

re: Navionics
today's screenshot at 07:29 (PDT) below

Interesting that according to CHS Current tables, the current turns to Ebb at 0829, reaching max of -10.05 kn at 11:52 (times are PST)
while 2 hours earlier the screenshot of Navionics tidal data shows the flood almost complete at the north end of the rapids and the Ebb well started at the South end.

The red rectangle beside Boom It is fully red, with the down arrow below showing the direction of flood. The 1/2 full blue rectangle by Rapid It shows the ebb by the up arrow above it, while the 1/2 full measure shows the progress of the Ebb.

Other than the tide measurement, my old Navionics doesn't have any current data whatsoever for these narrows, so you need to look elsewhere, such as the CHS tables, for that information.

Having spent all summer on the north BC coast and SEAK, looking at both Navionics and NOAA current and tide predictions, I will say be very cautious of them, always. The NOAA predictions were a random walk, as often wrong in direction as not, and almost always wrong in speed. If they were always wrong, they would be predictive, but they are just random fantasies. Navionics slightly better, but only slightly - again set 180 deg wrong, drift wildly wrong.

Even Ports and Passes, printed from the official data, is only a prediction and slacks were found to vary 1/2 hour or more from predictions. OpenCPN has a set of current and tide predictions that more or less mirror NOAA, but I found at least one (the Green Point Rapids) that was way off due to the time offset from Zulu being 16 hours off of the local time (for that prediction only!).

As the Camino captain found, looking down current from afar be very conservative - it is always worse than it looks.