Electric Boats

TT points out economics are an obstacle. Believe he’s right for
Short term ownership
Brief seasonal use (less than around 7m).
Infrequent use (weekend warriors).
If any of the above are met long, light and lean whether hybrid or not is at a disadvantage.

Believe the above correct if you compare boats by displacement and usable living space. Although some yards charge for winter (or hurricane season) dry storage by square footage slips are usually billed by LOA with more for 1 1/2 to 2 standard slip multi hulls. A Arksen 65 (really more like 68 true inclusive LOA) is comparable in living space to a N475 or a Artnautica 58 to a N41. Costs only wash out toward even if you use the boat a lot, anchor more than berth, live on it for extended times. Otherwise even if diesel rises even further in costs the heavy displacement for LOA would likely be more cost effective.
The cruising segment is small. With the above 3 obstacles even smaller. In some places there’s movement to restrict diesel use (inland waters in Europe as an example) . Still, even with governmental actions this with be a small market.

If someone here knows wind generators well, I'd be very interested in a heads up and links. Where we live, the local nickname is "Windy Point"; the wind is blowing now at 30kn (as I contemplate the rib journey to shore!). I have been planning a substantial solar installation, but would now like to rethink with wind generation in the mix. Thanks for those thoughts, Hippocampus.

Seems like we have folks here who know enough of the physics of solar to answer a question that has bugged me.

One of the limiting factors is the square footage of space for panels that is large enough to create enough power to do the job. IF one were to take some reasonably efficient hull, and above all cockpit, cabin, and forward deck space build an aircraft carrier top that is one big solar panel, would that give you enough power to both cruise and use power for daily life? Since that sort of design would be the max solar generation, if that can't do the job the rest becomes moot with current technology.

Jboatman said:

I think the important thing to consider, particularly for the early adopters is that some of them appear willing to go slower in order to accommodate the electric operation. I “like” the idea of being green. But what I would really be after with an electric boat is a quiet ride, similar to a sail boat, without the hassle of learning how to sail. I think I would be happy with a 60-80 mile range per day, with enough energy to keep me comfortable at night. But then you have to recharge somehow, and regardless of how many panels you can stack on a boat they don’t work at night. So back to carrying diesel for the recharge, and listening to an engine run for some period of time.

Click to expand...

Did anyone ever think a self-sustaining onboard solar panel system was viable to “propel” anything 24/7? It’s the sailors living on the hook who want basic living conveniences from an initial investment in solar panels and batteries.
Hydrogen-electric power to propel all vehicles is the future. The technology exists and is advancing everyday with $Billions invested by public and private sources. There are cars, buses and trucks operating everyday with hydrogen-electric green power. Hydrogen-electric power will eventually replace all gas, oil and coal power plants. Solar-electricity fills a small niche but it’s not the solution to gas, oil and coal power… Hydrogen-electric power is.

JRO said:

Did anyone ever think a self-sustaining onboard solar panel system was viable to “propel” anything 24/7? It’s the sailors living on the hook who want basic living conveniences from an initial investment in solar panels and batteries.

Hydrogen-electric power to propel all vehicles is the future. The technology exists and is advancing everyday with $Billions invested by public and private sources. There are cars, buses and trucks operating everyday with hydrogen-electric green power. Hydrogen-electric power will eventually replace all gas, oil and coal power plants. Solar-electricity fills a small niche but it’s not the solution to gas, oil and coal power… Hydrogen-electric power is.

Click to expand...

It would be great if you could say more about the examples you cite, and why you think this will happen. You have made this assertion before, and when asked about it you said google it for yourself. I have and don’t see it.

Care to defend your theory?

Kit_L said:

If someone here knows wind generators well, I'd be very interested in a heads up and links. Where we live, the local nickname is "Windy Point"; the wind is blowing now at 30kn (as I contemplate the rib journey to shore!). I have been planning a substantial solar installation, but would now like to rethink with wind generation in the mix. Thanks for those thoughts, Hippocampus.

Click to expand...

Id forget about them

One of the best models out there is the D400 @ $3800


https://www.keoghsmarine.com.au/ecl...t-vitually-silent-and-vibration-free-d400-12v

The large D400 produces 3.8A at nine knots, so you are looking at a very respectable 91Ah per day.

Click to expand...

Blowing around 9 knots here now
Solar is putting in around 45 amps @ 12v at 9am in winter
9 x 275w Jinko panels cost us about $700 in total

FWT said:

Seems like we have folks here who know enough of the physics of solar to answer a question that has bugged me.

One of the limiting factors is the square footage of space for panels that is large enough to create enough power to do the job. IF one were to take some reasonably efficient hull, and above all cockpit, cabin, and forward deck space build an aircraft carrier top that is one big solar panel, would that give you enough power to both cruise and use power for daily life? Since that sort of design would be the max solar generation, if that can't do the job the rest becomes moot with current technology.

Click to expand...

It can be done
But is it realistic?

https://phys.org/news/2013-06-world-largest-all-solar-powered-boat-nyc.html

Simi 60 said:

It can be done
But is it realistic?

Click to expand...

So the answer is yes, barely.

http://https://phys.org/news/2012-05-solar-powered-boat-climate.html

Thanks

Question:

Can a small, old PV panel [with no auto shut off in the wire link] over charge a single 27 LA starter batt if left charging for many sunny days in a row?

Sorry photo is sideways... straightens when I punch it up.

fwt said:

so the answer is yes, barely.

http://https://phys.org/news/2012-05-solar-powered-boat-climate.html

thanks

Click to expand...

not without storage batteries…

twistedtree said:

It would be great if you could say more about the examples you cite, and why you think this will happen. You have made this assertion before, and when asked about it you said google it for yourself. I have and don’t see it.

Care to defend your theory?

Click to expand...

I’m not defending “my” theory… I’m a teacher.

I have an Australian Shepherd because they, along with Poodles, are the smartest dogs in the world. It took him 5 minutes to learn to bring me his dish when he is hungry… Here are some Google dishes to review.


https://youtu.be/bZ0VSrG1Uag

https://youtu.be/2YzgB-7uQBA

https://youtu.be/QVM5XLgpe8o

https://youtu.be/pNIq0N47tLE

https://youtu.be/Y05Wh7Qhw3Q

https://youtu.be/q1MfAA890N0

https://youtu.be/aP-2ZkSuOLo

https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/ve...i7qB0LEPIDShQOBtqMd9fEdkBxoCQCQ&ds_rl=1277805

Solar works when the sun is shining and is at a decent angle above the horizon. So even in ideal circumstances only part of the day and poorly enough during inclement periods to be nothing more than a trickle charge at best. That’s true regardless of brand or space allowed.
Wind takes up nearly no real estate. Does need >10k to give a meaningful output but fewer down days in many cruising grounds. In those it’s 24/7 output. We had 2 D400s and two standard house panels mono crystalline. Above posts were generated from 8 y of use. Neither required maintenance once installed.
View wind as a compliment to solar. Strengths/weaknesses of one the opposite of the other. D400s where mounted above a hard binimi. You’d needed to look to see if they were spinning. Need to look at production comparisons over a appropriate time frame. At least months Need to judge where you cruise and when to judge if the expense is worthwhile. Yes experience was with a full time cruising sailboat. Yes summer grounds are less windy (northeast US) and winter grounds were windy(windwards).yes summer grounds had longer days. So seasonal variation makes sense.
Even on an Arksen where every available inch is solar there’s not enough output to get rid of diesel propulsion.
Agree H has its place. Unfortunately don’t think it scales down well enough to be a viable choice for a mom and pop couple with occasional 2-4 guests.
Think for power the largest segment numerically for long term cruising boat new construction is in the $800k to $2.5m USD. Don’t think retrofitting makes any sense for hybrid nor pure electric. This discussion is irrelevant to used boats in my view
In that market deep water seems targeted to increase efficiency while preserving range, comfort and available speed over theoretical hull speed when needed. So the least modification in lifestyle if coming off a standard SD boat.
Artnautica seems to target range and efficiency. Arksen the same with the added focus on maximizing solar integration. Still they all use conventional diesel for passage making propulsion. Hybrid is offered as well. Hybrid probably only makes sense in a boat like the A58. Very low powered diesel with variable pitch prop. The KW required from the electric motor is therefore also quite low. That would allow intermittent non diesel use. The electric motor doesn’t care where the KW comes from-solar,wind, shore power, fuel cell, battery bank. So any source would serve.
H fuel cell has a lot to offer if.
Electricity used to split water is “green” generated.
H fueling stations exist along everywhere you cruise.
Your system has zero leakage. So you don’t need to refuel if your boat sits for awhile.
Unlike cars and trucks where infrastructure exists that’s not true for recreational boats. Even California had enough issues early adaptors were put off. You make be right and Toyotas bet will pay off on land but think my children probably my grandchildren won’t be cruising on H fuel cell boats

JRO said:

I’m not defending “my” theory… I’m a teacher.

I have an Australian Shepherd because they, along with Poodles, are the smartest dogs in the world. It took him 5 minutes to learn to bring me his dish when he is hungry… Here are some Google dishes to review.


https://youtu.be/bZ0VSrG1Uag

https://youtu.be/2YzgB-7uQBA

https://youtu.be/QVM5XLgpe8o

https://youtu.be/pNIq0N47tLE

https://youtu.be/Y05Wh7Qhw3Q

https://youtu.be/q1MfAA890N0

https://youtu.be/aP-2ZkSuOLo

https://www.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/ve...i7qB0LEPIDShQOBtqMd9fEdkBxoCQCQ&ds_rl=1277805

Click to expand...

You should stop watching YouTube promotional videos, and retrain your dog to bring you a high school physics text book instead of his dish.


Ask where the hydrogen comes from. This was discussed here https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1113768&postcount=123 and in previous posts in that thread. Even if the hydrogen is "created" from renewable power sources, only 20% of energy to create the hydrogen makes it to the electric motor driving the wheels of car. With a battery electric vehicle 90% makes it to the wheels.


There's a good reason why Musk calls them "Fool Cells", and why VW has turned away from them too. This, by the way, was in one of the videos you linked.

twistedtree said:

You should stop watching YouTube promotional videos, and retrain your dog to bring you a high school physics text book instead of his dish.


Ask where the hydrogen comes from. This was discussed here https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1113768&postcount=123 and in previous posts in that thread. Even if the hydrogen is "created" from renewable power sources, only 20% of energy to create the hydrogen makes it to the electric motor driving the wheels of car. With a battery electric vehicle 90% makes it to the wheels.


There's a good reason why Musk calls them "Fool Cells", and why VW has turned away from them too. This, by the way, was in one of the videos you linked.

Click to expand...

You asked… I didn’t expect to turn a lightbulb on in your brain. I responded and I should not have. My bad.

Earlier there was a discussion raised about how far the average person drives their car and the feasibility of EV.

It would be interesting to put a percentage to how much energy that represents with regard to you or your family's total energy consumption. The simple ones that come to mind are heating, cooling, and home electricity. My wife lives West of Chicago and is complaining about the price of gasoline for her 30+ MPG car and annual 6,000 mile use. Compared to her natural gas consumption to heat her townhouse and the electric bill for everything else, the gasoline consumption seems insignificant. While an electric car would make sense for her, before delving into where her electricity comes from (coal, nuke, natural gas, etc.) removing that petroleum portion of her total consumption doesn't seem real significant. Has anyone seen credible numbers for what portion of our energy consumption is personal automotive?

Ted

what portion of our energy consumption is personal automotive?

Click to expand...

Saul Griffiths analysed this and much more, both for the US ("Electrify") and "The Big Switch", Australia. I'm on board, but I will look for this tomorrow when back on land. I think your guesstimate ("the gasoline consumption seems insignificant") is accurate, and her car use is on the low side of average, too, at 6,000 miles/annum. Great question.

That’s a really case by case question. Slept over at my daughters house to watch kids as thy went to Red Sox yankee night game.
Their house is conventional, central Massachusetts. Heating and cooling FF. She is 75% remote wok. He is a teacher so 100% commute (~30-45 m). Two full size SUVs as typical for families with kids. Transport probably ~10% of hydrocarbon release but life100% hydrocarbon.
We live in a zero footprint house. Main transport a diesel. Wife’s gasoline. Boat diesel is the majority of hydrocarbon release. SUVs a close second. Transport a 100% of HC release now we switched to all battery yard and house tools.
Due to limitations of pure EV next cycle of vehicles will be one EV(local,activities) one hybrid pickup for off grid and distance.

Hippocampus said:

That’s a really case by case question. Slept over at my daughters house to watch kids as thy went to Red Sox yankee night game.
Their house is conventional, central Massachusetts. Heating and cooling FF. She is 75% remote wok. He is a teacher so 100% commute (~30-45 m). Two full size SUVs as typical for families with kids. Transport probably ~10% of hydrocarbon release but life100% hydrocarbon.
We live in a zero footprint house. Main transport a diesel. Wife’s gasoline. Boat diesel is the majority of hydrocarbon release. SUVs a close second. Transport a 100% of HC release now we switched to all battery yard and house tools.
Due to limitations of pure EV next cycle of vehicles will be one EV (local,activities) one hybrid pickup for off grid and distance.

Click to expand...

Yard and house tools use 100% clean, renewably generated electric energy for charging?

In our case, yes. We use only rechargeable tools (much safer on the water, too) these days. And we make our own power and pump what we don't use back into the grid. We have 20 large panels and a largish 5Kw inverter, and a meter that can run in both directions (utility company buys back at 1/10th what we pay to use power). We only use heaters, dishwasher, and washing machine when the sun is shining (and the associated app tells us exactly what we are producing). Since installation two years ago, electricity bills have gone from $1,800/quarter to a low of $19/quarter. Zero strain in making the small rearrangements in use timings that produce these kinds of changes, too

JRO said:

You asked… I didn’t expect to turn a lightbulb on in your brain. I responded and I should not have. My bad.

Click to expand...

As a teacher, I would think you would be interested in educating others and me about why hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are the answer to transportation energy needs. Some pretty good arguments have been put forth explaining why they are not such a great alternative to plug in electric cars, principally because of the energy cost to create the fuel. And saying "Goolge it" isn't teaching, it's a cop out. I have looked into it, as have others, and come to a different conclusion. This is the point where adults engage in a discussion/debate, yet you are unwilling/unable to defend your position. So at this point I just dismiss it as uninformed and unsupported.

Yard and house tools use 100% clean, renewably generated electric energy for charging?

Yup to the extent feasible. And we sell power back to grid. Some local laws are stupid if the goal is truly to decrease carbon. In my locale I’m limited as to how much solar electricity I can generate on a residential property before becoming a commercial supplier. The rate I get for my power and the tax implications aren’t as favorable if commercial. Also I’m not permitted to go entirely off grid. I’m obligated to connect to the grid. This means battery storage becomes much less attractive and to achieve redundancy for storms and grid failures I had to install a propane generator. With out that confounder all house energy requirements would be solar generated on site. Now make more energy than we use and go through a rigamarole. Friend who worked for the power plant suggested if enough people went off grid for all domestic needs and ran domestically charged EVs it would impact the power companies bottom line. Building and maintaining the electrical grid is expensive. A dramatic fall in users would increase costs to maintain it for fewer billable customers. Domestic production is their competition. Off grid doesn’t generate income for them. They still need to run and maintain a line down the street to supply my neighbors who aren’t off grid.
My vision was to transition to one plug in hybrid one EV and charge them myself. Store my energy to a sufficient degree as to not need a generator. Eliminate all middleman costs and not be subject to the whims of politicians or local mandates. Now get paid at a lower rate for my power then they sell it for (once the tax credits are used up) and still stuck with a FF genset for back up.
Be curious to see if a tax credit or rebate is offered for recreational boats if EV or hybrid.

Hippocampus said:

Yard and house tools use 100% clean, renewably generated electric energy for charging?

Yup to the extent feasible. And we sell power back to grid. Some local laws are stupid if the goal is truly to decrease carbon. In my locale I’m limited as to how much solar electricity I can generate on a residential property before becoming a commercial supplier. The rate I get for my power and the tax implications aren’t as favorable if commercial. Also I’m not permitted to go entirely off grid. I’m obligated to connect to the grid. This means battery storage becomes much less attractive and to achieve redundancy for storms and grid failures I had to install a propane generator. With out that confounder all house energy requirements would be solar generated on site. Now make more energy than we use and go through a rigamarole. Friend who worked for the power plant suggested if enough people went off grid for all domestic needs and ran domestically charged EVs it would impact the power companies bottom line. Building and maintaining the electrical grid is expensive. A dramatic fall in users would increase costs to maintain it for fewer billable customers. Domestic production is their competition. Off grid doesn’t generate income for them. They still need to run and maintain a line down the street to supply my neighbors who aren’t off grid.
My vision was to transition to one plug in hybrid one EV and charge them myself. Store my energy to a sufficient degree as to not need a generator. Eliminate all middleman costs and not be subject to the whims of politicians or local mandates. Now get paid at a lower rate for my power then they sell it for (once the tax credits are used up) and still stuck with a FF genset for back up.
Be curious to see if a tax credit or rebate is offered for recreational boats if EV or hybrid.

Click to expand...

Don't be surprised if in the future, the electric lines down the street become a line item on your property tax bill just like water lines, sewer lines, and road maintenance. Instead of being charged for killowatts flowing to your house, it will be for access. Lots of townships include a number of services as part of your tax bill, whether you use them or not. Some of those things included are:

Water
Sewer
Trash
Public Library
Sidewalks
Roads
Public schools for everyone in your house
And this list goes on.

Ted

I know that tax credits help push the green agenda, but it's a little ironic that they are mostly subsidizing rich people buying expensive cars. Boats could very well be next. I am also slowly replacing all small yard tools with electric, but mainly because they are easier and better, not to save the small amount of fuel they burn.

For all his faults (and there are many) Biden understood your point B&B. The inflation bill speaks directly to that.

Update on our solar electric/fossil fuel free powercat build project (November 2022):

1. The dinghy tender - a rather expensive 11.2ft carbon/GRP ASTender made in Germany was delivered in June and is currently undergoing modifications/adaptations for my mobility impaired wife. Due to delayed availability of the originally intended 1kW Remigo outboard we ended up buying a 6kW long shaft ePropulsion Navy outboard which requires a substantial external LiFePO battery but can be transferred onto the mothership to act as supplemental propulsion in the midline lazarette between the hulls. For weight reasons we went with an undersized 4kWh E80 battery (50kg) rather than the recommended 9kWh E175 (87kg) so can only use the outboard at slightly more than half throttle, but have had one successful sea trial so far. Additional installations include a transverse seating bench and remote steering (Highfield FCT7 console) and a T-top to provide good hand holds, shade and capacity to carry solar panels. Overall weight of the tender (approx. 240kg) will be a problem as there is no affordable and suitable tender hoist currently on the market - we may have to construct one from scratch.

2. Our project is described in some detail in POWERBOAT & RIB magazine issue 178 pages 152-4 (the first in a series of at least 4 articles in PBR and likely others in PBO and non-English language magazines. Following completion we intend to have the boat as a show boat at a number of international and national boat shows in the UK and EU, in cooperation with OEMs led by ePropulsion.

3. The Broadblue 346 has just gone into the mould at the production yard in Sczeczin, Poland and should be ready for transfer to the UK in late April 2023. Main propulsion will be 2 x 6kW ePropulsion pod motors powered by up to 16 E80 batteries (total capacity 64kWh). The transfer journey will be via the inland waterways of Germany and the Netherlands in the main and will be featured in PBR. The dinghy tender's 6kW outboard can be transferred onto the catamaran to act as a third motor for longer passages. The solar panel estate installation (up to 3.1kWp) will occur at Broadblue's base in Hampshire. There will also be 4 wind turbines (one at each corner of the boat), a kite sail, and a drogue.

The USPs of our project are (1) a fossil fuel free liveaboard cruiser with a range of 70 nm at hull speed of 8kn, more than double that at 5kn, or unlimited at 4kn; (2) an FFF 'exploration style' dinghy tender capable of day excursions up to 10nm away from the mothership; (3) both catamaran and dinghy being adapted to the needs of a mobility impaired (but NOT wheelchair using) 1st mate; and (4) the whole to cost well below half a million dollars (incl. VAT).

Nick14 said:

Exactly. The same can be said about 'electricity.' Electricity is also not a source of energy, but a way to store energy that must be generated by something else. Many fans of battery-electric cars overlook that important l

Click to expand...

Gas and diesel are also not a source of energy. It’s just energy that has been stored for ages. And should be left where it is.

What point are you trying to make by saying that electricity isn’t a source?

Jboatman said:

Gas and diesel are also NOT a source of energy. It’s just energy that has been stored for ages. And should be left where it is.

What point are you trying to make by saying that electricity isn’t a source?

Click to expand...

That's funny,
I like putting it in the fuel tank of my Trawler and my diesel pickup


Hollywood

An Australian company, Davco, makes tender winches; we have one aboard Suu Kyi. It has a capacity of 350Kg, and ours is operated via a 12V system.

I have no doubt the same model will lift your tender easily. Here is their URL:

https://davcowinch.com.au/

Jboatman said:

Gas and diesel are also not a source of energy. It’s just energy that has been stored for ages. And should be left where it is.

What point are you trying to make by saying that electricity isn’t a source?

Click to expand...

Gas and diesel certainly provide a lot of energy for most folks. If fact, you'd have a hard time living without it.



Someday we might have alternative sources, but that's a long way off. For now, DRILL BABY, DRILL!

Seevee said:

Gas and diesel certainly provide a lot of energy for most folks. If fact, you'd have a hard time living without it.



Someday we might have alternative sources, but that's a long way off. For now, DRILL BABY, DRILL!

Click to expand...

That’s not the point. Gas is no more or less a “source” of energy than a battery full of electricity is.