General etiquette when initially viewing a boat questions.

AlanT said:

Tons of good advice here so I wont add to the pile. I noticed you proposed asking "does everything work". I suggest you change that question a little. If you asked me that question my knee jerk reaction would be "yes".

However if you ask what is currently causing a problem or broken or soon needs replacing on the boat you will hopefully get a thoughtful and more useful response (you would from me!).

In your price range the problems that you will not be able to visually identify by a thorough walkthrough will be engines/drive train and structural integrity. You can smell problems with the heads, mold/damp. You can identify prior or current leaks from stains. You can judge what needs updating from cosmetics to instrumentation to electronics to galley. So do your work on the walk through (which should be a long walkthrough (or a return visit) on a shortlisted boat), then hire an engine and a general survey. Both are needed IMO.

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You snuck this one in while I was writing another book.

I don't believe I proposed simply asking if everything works but if I did, I misspoke. That's a question I'd put down there with asking what the lowest they'd go on the price before a viewing date is even set. When I'm asked that my response is always, "What's the highest you'll go?" If I'm asking about any problems, it'll be about what I've discovered during my inspection, and that's mainly to gauge the honesty of the seller and the likelihood they've maintained it properly. "With an open checkbook" is trite and complete BS.

The initial walkthrough is what I'd consider a cursory inspection to see if it's worth a closer look. I'm not there to survey it, but I would be looking for anything that's glaringly out of line with ABYC and USCG standards. I have a pretty good understanding of what red flags to look for, but would never buy something this big without a hull and engine survey and sea trial performed by the best I can find. I'm also fairly certain that any insurance co is going to want those completed before they approve coverage, anyway.

AlanT said:

The 'In the water boat shows' in the PNW and FL and Annapolis and Newport all feature used as well as new boats from my experience, although there are a LOT more used boats at PNW shows than the others mentioned.
~A

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How used is used, though? Our cap is $250k and we haven't seen anything remotely appealing in that price range newer than 25ish years old. I would think that the used stuff at boat shows wouldn't be that old and if it was within our budget, wouldn't be big enough to do what we want without incurring major compromises. That said, it would be nice to go see what the rich folk cruise around on.

Hehe, yeah, mine was a hundred grand. Blew that budget too! Break Out Another Thou!

So we left the "buy dock" at about 110. 93 for the boat and the rest for repairs and slip rent.

Marine stuff -

One more thing about line handling I forgot to mention- we want to avoid marinas as much as possible beyond fuel and pump out, so side deck access isn't as important to us as the livable area of the salon is.

LandlockedInUT said:

How used is used, though? Our cap is $250k and we haven't seen anything remotely appealing in that price range newer than 25ish years old. I would think that the used stuff at boat shows wouldn't be that old and if it was within our budget, wouldn't be big enough to do what we want without incurring major compromises. That said, it would be nice to go see what the rich folk cruise around on.

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I know that you are looking in Maine, and we just got home from MT Desert Island to home in the PNW without looking at any boats. However at the Seattle boat show there are boats from the '80's including even some wooden boats from the 70's there in the 3-400k range that probably have flexibility in pricing. Your ME experience may be different.

Our search will encompass everywhere east of the Panama Canal that is within US waters. While a transit from PNW to the east coast would be an amazing adventure, it's just not within the scope of our reality. We would very much like to at some point charter a trawler for a week or two and cruise those islands and fjords up north of the border.

LandlockedInUT said:

You snuck this one in while I was writing another book.

I don't believe I proposed simply asking if everything works but if I did, I misspoke. That's a question I'd put down there with asking what the lowest they'd go on the price before a viewing date is even set. When I'm asked that my response is always, "What's the highest you'll go?" If I'm asking about any problems, it'll be about what I've discovered during my inspection, and that's mainly to gauge the honesty of the seller and the likelihood they've maintained it properly. "With an open checkbook" is trite and complete BS.

The initial walkthrough is what I'd consider a cursory inspection to see if it's worth a closer look. I'm not there to survey it, but I would be looking for anything that's glaringly out of line with ABYC and USCG standards. I have a pretty good understanding of what red flags to look for, but would never buy something this big without a hull and engine survey and sea trial performed by the best I can find. I'm also fairly certain that any insurance co is going to want those completed before they approve coverage, anyway.

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I may have picked up that comment from a response to your messages, my apologies.

Everyone has a different style of negotiation and it is not likely that the owner will be present for a viewing. However if one is present and willing to chat that provides an opportunity, not for negotiation but for knowledge that may assist later in the purchase.

Personally I would not negotiate price with an owner in the presence of a broker AT ALL. That is the brokers job. Or if you do not have a buyers broker then it is your job with the broker not the seller. My point was more subtle. Try to find out what the owner feels are his weak points on the boat. 'if you were keeping the boat would you ......? What are you currently working on....? What yards have you used for repairs...? What repairs are they good at, did they do for you...? 'So IF you have that opportunity to walk through the short list boat, I would spend at least an hour on the entire interior of a 40' including all hatches/voids. If you chose to rely on the survey you would be surprised how many things a surveyor will miss that you will be able to find if you look.

Surveyors in general have to cover their bases. They spend an inordinate amount of time tapping deck and hull because these are very important, but they also spend a lot of time inspecting and reporting on inexpensive easy things to fix that are in ABYC. These are not unimportant, and they do need to be addressed but they are minor $$, and he or she is doing their job. But while that is going on you have the opportunity to dive into the boat.
The surveyor will likely not be at all focused on a number of things that you can likely spot right off with an observant eye and which can amount to big $$. No exhaustive list here but examples: Problems with damp under the mattresses; things that work, but make weird noises and give you no confidence; water where there shouldn't be (damp carpets, rust stains on fibreglass); Smells, especially in void spaces and near plumbing; dry sumps in windlasses, thrusters, autopilot reservoirs or leaks in same; dripping raw water pumps on gensets (surveyor didn't open the box) worn steering arms leaking fluid; Boats in the age that you are looking at will always have a number of failing or near to failing devices. A purchase is the only opportunity you have to share the cost of those future repairs with another. Take your time and you will be well rewarded.

A well regarded poster on this forum has on his byline something like this:
Everything on your boat is broken, you just don't know it yet.

It's worth considering. Once you close everything that fails is 100% your expense.

Good luck and don't undersell your own ability to inspect the boat independently from the surveyor.
~A

Re side deck access - don’t dismiss this so quickly! If you are not going to be docked, you will be anchoring. Side deck access is important in going forward to anchor too! In addition, you will be docking at times (getting fuel, provisions, water, going to a pump-out).

And while I have you here, consider putting a cockpit and easy swimstep access on your list! Particularly if you are mostly at anchor, these two will make it easier to get in and out of your dinghy.

And lastly, give some thought to ease of deploying and stowing that dinghy. Yes, you will need one, and a kayak is fun but doesn’t really serve the same functions; it won’t be your SUV!

Spinner said:

Re side deck access - don’t dismiss this so quickly! If you are not going to be docked, you will be anchoring. Side deck access is important in going forward to anchor too! In addition, you will be docking at times (getting fuel, provisions, water, going to a pump-out).

And while I have you here, consider putting a cockpit and easy swimstep access on your list! Particularly if you are mostly at anchor, these two will make it easier to get in and out of your dinghy.

And lastly, give some thought to ease of deploying and stowing that dinghy. Yes, you will need one, and a kayak is fun but doesn’t really serve the same functions; it won’t be your SUV!

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Thanks for the advice and tips! I think that you might be picturing the wrong boat, and at the risk of insulting your intelligence, here's a few shots of the 53ED if they help.

Plenty of access to the foredeck from the pilot house for anchor handling and returning the one finger Florida salute.


Along the salon is still accessible if you don't mind an 8" foothold and hanging off a railing, but not something I'd consider functional or safe for docking.


Lastly for what it's worth, there is about 5' between the rear of the deck house and the aft railing.


Question about the cockpit- In lieu of a cockpit, would an enlarged swim platform with stairs going down across the transom be a suitable substitute in terms of accessing the water?

Having had both, I prefer "walkaround" to "clingon" decks. A "sundeck" design adds difficulty to line handling/docking. Easy unhindered all round access isn`t always vital but one day it will be. As you apprehend, it intrudes negatively on interior space.
We`ve a spacious flybridge but my favourite spot to sit, dine,etc is the cockpit, adjacent to fridge, galley, radios,etc. It would take a lot of persuasion to not have one.

Can't remember if anyone yet mentioned the Powerboat Guide... but we found it very useful when comparing models during our last "clean sheet review" of criteria we wanted, hoped, for, didn't want, etc. The softcopy version is keyword searchable.

-Chris

Don't know if it's been mentioned... SAFETY is a Big Part of a Boat's Layout.

I'm a nut for Exterior Area Safety. Interior area design also needs to have safety in mind... but ... Exterior Areas [cockpit, decks, fly bridge, swim step, bow, gunnel side passages etc.] need to have railings and hand holds to help keep everyone on board. I have not known of persons who fell down in a boats interior and died. I do know two who fell overboard and were never seen again.

Photos show exterior railings on our current boat. Not one exterior area is without plenty of stainless railings and/or instantly grabbable hand holds.

You might consider a sundeck with cockpit configuration. We're currently planning on putting our Ocean Alexander 440 up for sale next summer. Our plan is to live aboard through most of the 2023 Great lakes boating season. A buyer could head South down the river system to warm weather, or probably get to the Thousand Islands before it had to be placed in winter storage.

Art said:

Don't know if it's been mentioned... SAFETY is a Big Part of a Boat's Layout.

I'm a nut for Exterior Area Safety. Interior area design also needs to have safety in mind... but ... Exterior Areas [cockpit, decks, fly bridge, swim step, bow, gunnel side passages etc.] need to have railings and hand holds to help keep everyone on board. I have not known of persons who fell down in a boats interior and died. I do know two who fell overboard and were never seen again.

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I couldn't agree more with you Art!

Some of the scariest times for me were when we had an American Tug 34. I absolutely LOVED that boat! But I was very nervous pirouetting on the 5" wide side decks - with no railings - when I would venture out there to hang fenders before docking. There was a head-high railing to hold onto - with one had while the other hand held a fender. It was like walking a tightrope. The reality was it was only a matter of time before a wake, wave, or wind hit the boat and I went into the drink.

Line handling, docking, anchoring, or fending off from impending impacts might only take up a small fraction of the total time spent on a boat. But it represents an outsize importance in terms of safety and safe operation of a boat. It's been my highest priority ever since, with easy access full walk-around decks and plenty of railings being a must-have.

I cannot disagree with anything said about exterior area safety.

Rufus- We're planning on having a look at a sundeck style boat while we're there; the broker that will be showing the 53ED also has a Sea Ray 410 aft cabin berthed in the same marina.

We're flying out tonight and will be looking at the boats and walking docks next week and I'll post back after the viewings with my impressions.

One again, all... thank you so much for your input. It has given us much to think and talk about, and has brought up several points that we wouldn't have considered otherwise during the viewings.

LandlockedInUT said:

I cannot disagree with anything said about exterior area safety.

Rufus- We're planning on having a look at a sundeck style boat while we're there; the broker that will be showing the 53ED also has a Sea Ray 410 aft cabin berthed in the same marina.

We're flying out tonight and will be looking at the boats and walking docks next week and I'll post back after the viewings with my impressions.

One again, all... thank you so much for your input. It has given us much to think and talk about, and has brought up several points that we wouldn't have considered otherwise during the viewings.

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While life is in general a learning experience - marine doings and boats themselves make quite an interesting experience of learning.

Boat transport across country.

It was very difficult to find a boat transport from Rhode Island to southern California last year although I did. Before you buy a boat that far away, figure out the transportation logistics. Especially if winter is approaching. The internet sites are often brokers who find a driver for you, and you don't really know who is responsible for what. Get a written contract with precise details of insurance and liability issues. And make sure that there are available facilities back home to splash the boat. I'm assuming your new boat will not be a trailer boat. You can contact me at kkindrick@juno.com

No disrespect to the broker, but if you have someone who has owned and operated a boat, talk to that person about what you have seen, your concerns and ask for opinions.

Howdy Landlocked! We've been looking at trawlers for years (and have owned 3 sailboats during). Have scampered aboard many and finally got to the point where we pulled the trigger and now have a contract and survey scheduled next week. Some recs based on hindsight:

- Don't dismiss boat shows. Helps you understand good design and features you might find very useful or unnecessary on a used vessel.
-Boat owners are generous, friendly folk. I've had great conversations and tours just by chatting up owners on the docks and this forum. Asking about likes/dislikes, issues/problems helped us understand what we're looking at more realistically.
-My questions are never "Does everything work?" but instead "What issues are you aware of and what would you upgrade?" I've had brokers profess to me problems when asked that way. If they say nothing is wrong and know otherwise they know they're liars. And I'll likely find out also.
- Depending on your price range, do consider a buyer broker. Zimmerman Marine has a service where they help pick a boat out based on your use. They have a minimum $300K purchase price and take the buyer commission. Although my purchase price is below their minimum, they've been very, very helpful. If when we go bigger & more $$$$, I would definitely use them. They came recommended by neighbors who now live on their Selene.
- I'm finding that my interactions with my marine and engine surveyors have been really helpful. Both are familiar with the engine and model we're surveying and gave me technical advice on considerations of the model. I've spent a couple hours on the phone with them and we've not even gone to survey.
-This forum has been amazing! MVWeebles and others have been prolific in sharing advice and resources.
-www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Marine%20Survey%20101.htm. Read this one carefully. And if you see a boat you like, go back to it with this pre-survey look in mind. Our first look at the boat we're surveying, we were purely smitten. Second look, we saw the warts and had a much better awareness of what we're potentially getting. And I wish I had this document before placing a contract. May have saved me the expense of a survey, but I'll find out for sure next week!

Good luck and enjoy the search....
Mark

Dear Landlocked;
During our first search several years ago we found a buyers broker who was a real help, found boats we would have missed, and helped us avoid boats he knew that had not been well taken care of. However, there was also a downside; the commission is paid by the seller, so with a buyer's broker the selling broker has to split his commission. We had a couple of instances where the selling broker didn't want to show us a boat because of this, but it didn't turn out to be a major issue.
In your case, being far away from most areas where you can look at boats, a buyer's broker could potentially save you a lot of wasted travel, since he will be more familiar with what's on the market.
I would also suggest focusing your search in the region where you actually want to keep the boat, so you can also find out about marinas and service at the same time, and get to know local providers.
We mostly found the search to be exciting-mostly!- and stepping on to a lot of boats is the best way to learn what is important to the two of you. Going to a TrawlerFest, or a big boat show, like the Annapolis show, is probably the best way to see a wide variety of boats in a short time; even if you are not looking for a new boat, you will learn a lot about the different builders, designs, and features.
Good luck, and have fun!

General Etiquette...

Landlocked,

Forgot to add to my earlier post, don't get too hung up that this needs to be the "perfect" boat. Many of the TF'ers have owned multiple boats, and it least in my experience it is common that some of the things you thought were "must haves" turn out not to be, while other things that didn't seem so important become "must haves". Whatever you wind up with, you will learn a lot simply from owning and using it, and replacing it with a different boat that better meets your needs is pretty typical.
When we bought our Legacy - definitely not a trawler - we thought it ticked all the boxes, but sold it when it turned out that it didn't. There was nothing wrong with the boat, just turned out that what we wanted evolved. By the way, following up on a those posts suggesting you look at a "downeast" style boat, Legacy, also Sabre, Back Cove and others, make boats somewhere between trawler and downeast style, but they would definitely all do the speed you are looking for.
Peter

LandlockedInUT said:

Along the salon is still accessible if you don't mind an 8" foothold and hanging off a railing, but not something I'd consider functional or safe for docking.

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Landlocked, The side deck on my AT34 is just like yours but my boat is shorter so I can pass through the saloon much faster. LOL

I also can also tie off the fenders from the upper rail too.

Hang the fenders before you get into a congested area while you are getting your dock lines ready.

BruceK said:

Asking for ...........previous surveys is fine, concern rises if you know they exist but access is not given. If inquiry gets brushed aside or responses seem BS,it could be a red flag.

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I would add a clarification or a caveat to this. The person that pays for the survey owns the survey. Sellers rarely get a selling boat surveyed. If they do it is to pre-emptively catch anything that needs to be repaired prior to the vessel being listed. (This is not always the case, but an owner initiated survey is rare)

Prospective buyers get vessels surveyed and rarely share them with the owner, with the exception of the list of things that need to be prepared.

Unless you've paid for the survey, you're not entitled to see one. Refusal to provide one is NOT a red flag. If you want to see a survey pay as surveyor.

Let me preface this by saying I’m looking at boats in the tens of thousands of dollars… not hundreds of thousands; and that - $30K -$60K is VERY REAL money for me. I also know I’m up against a seller’s market. That said: I’m talking about shelling out hard earned cash and I’m not going to walking on eggshells around sellers. I see absolutely no reason it should be considered “bad form” to ask the seller of a boat that’s advertised as “ready to go to the Bahamas tomorrow” to start the engine(s). I mean… come on. In fact… I’m going to ask they momentarily put the engine(s) into forward and reverse at the dock. And if the boat has a generator, and everything is advertised as “working as it should”… start the generator. Especially after my wife and I have taken a day off and driven 3-4 hours, each way, to see the boat… In fact - I’m going to show up with a moisture meter and give things a good look. (I will, of course, ask if it’s OK to turn on lights, turn on facets, etc. Heck… if the boat has a windless and thruster (again – advertised as working)… I’ll ask to see those work as well.

And to be clear… I’ve not gotten any pushback from any sellers who have boats in running/good condition. In fact… they have all been ready to show the engines run. Maybe I’ve been lucky or maybe they are “quality people” (as my dad would say) and not trying to hide anything.

As for test rides… I agree that’s a BIG ask and WAY outside the norm in the world of boat sales. (I’m talking about a spin around the block… not a full blown “sea trial” where an experienced surveyor is going to be monitoring engine performance and such.) I recently looked at a boat with very rounded chines… and while that does not bother me… I did want my wife to get a feel for how the boat might ride and sit at anchor. And I did broach the subject of a quick spin … and to the seller’s credit… he did not immediately “ghost” me. He simply said he would need us to be closer on price... and he would consider it if I gave him a small “non-refundable” deposit. That seemed very fair to me. (That said – we are still a bit apart on price.  )

In summary… If a seller “takes offence” at me asking a bunch of questions and asking to see if things work… then I believe that says more about the seller and the condition of the boat… than me.

And finally… I learned two things from my Mom:
If you don’t ask… you never know (or the answer is always no).
And something is only “worth” what a buyer is willing to pay, and a seller is will to sell at.

Peace - Pete

This is going to be short, but just an update to this thread.

We were able to put eyes and feet on a Hatteras 53ED, A GB42, and a Sea Ray 410 yesterday. Quite the mix, I know. We had many questions answered and many new questions were brought up, and each boat surprised us (both good and bad) in their own ways. For now, we're going to back off on the search simply because we have loose ends in UT that will take a few years to tie up before we hit the water. In the mean time, we will continue to read, research, and dream.

Again- thank you all so much for the knowledge and wisdom bestowed upon us through this thread. We sincerely appreciate it and are looking forward to becoming more active members of this forum as we continue to travel down this path.

Landlocked,
Thanks for the update.
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the three boats you viewed.

tpfbdf said:

-
He simply said he would need us to be closer on price... and he would consider it if I gave him a small “non-refundable” deposit. That seemed very fair to me. (That said – we are still a bit apart on price.  )

In summary… If a seller “takes offence” at me asking a bunch of questions and asking to see if things work… then I believe that says more about the seller and the condition of the boat… than me.
Peace - Pete

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If you give him a deposit refundable or not and he accepts, you have locked out the boat from further viewing or a possible sale unless you give him permission.

Good point on the deposit locking out the boat from future sale (I had not thought of that). Maybe a straight test ride where I pay all expenses would be more appropriate. That said... I think a seller is always able to "show" the boat until the fat lady sings; after all... until closing... it's still the seller's boat. (Just like in real-estate ... even if there is a contract on a house... the seller can keep showing the house... and take backup contracts... right up until closing.)

bluebyu said:

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the three boats you viewed.

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Sea Ray 410 https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1987-sea-ray-410-aft-cabin-8337971/

This was purely to see what a sundeck layout felt like. The condition of the boat is far, far below anything we'd consider cosmetically, looks 10x worse in person, and is most likely the wrong tool for the job in the long term anyway. The good- it's cheap and according to the broker is solid mechanically. It did seem to have enough interior volume to be cozy but comfortable if the interior didn't look like a Motel 6 room at the end of its life cycle. Sight lines were good from the helm, mainly because the boat was short, I'm guessing. The bad- we didn't like how no matter where you were in the boat, there were stairs between you and anywhere else. ER access was another issue. There wasn't any furniture in it at all and when we pulled the boards up to look at the Cats, all I could think about is that any furniture that was there would have to go top side to get any real access to the lumps. Lack of a lower helm, lack of quick access to the deck from the helm, knee-high railings and wet heads rounded out the rest of the dislikes. The main takeaway was that it put the sundeck layout at the very bottom of the floor plan list for us.

GB42 https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1975-grand-banks-42-classic-8401917/

Not a bad boat at all, at least from what I saw. Definitely more favorable than a sundeck by a HUGE margin. Nice wide walkaround decks, great sight lines from both helm stations, and I was particularly impressed that I could see the bow and both corners of the transom when standing at the bridge helm. The salon was much more open and the ER was quite a bit easier to access, either through the forward stairs or through the sole of the salon. We're both good with crawling around under there, but can see how that'd get harder with age. There are some draw backs to the GBs that we've gleaned just from reading about them, but I'll stick to what we discovered upon viewing. The main was the master suite and the bed layout. We call it the "we'll talk about it in the morning" layout and there isn't any possible way to get a queen in there without completely blocking access to the master head. And forget about a king. It was great to see and it'd be a great deal for someone looking for one.

FWIW, the owner's looking to get rid of it ASAP because he doesn't want to pay for winter storage and the yard wants it out of there yesterday. The broker said, "don't be afraid to insult us with an offer." Take that all for what it is, either truth or the usual sales tactics. But if we were in the market for one, this would be well worth the effort to survey and splash it. It was clean, well maintained from top to bottom and inside and out, and looking at it with the same eye I give to airplanes, it looked like a very, very solid boat to pursue further.

Hatteras 53ED https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1984-hatteras-motor-yacht-ed-6758321/

Holy crap, where to begin? Spacious without being sprawling and roomy without being oversized for the sake of bragging rights. Don't get me wrong- it's a big ass boat. But it doesn't feel too big in the sense that it's just excessively gratuitous. If the Sea Ray felt like a camper trailer, and the GB42 felt like a nice RV, then the 53ED felt like a very nice home. I felt like it had better sight lines from both helms than the Sea Ray, but not as good as the GB. TONS of storage space, tons of room for additional cold storage, tons of room for toys and what have you up on the bridge, room for five or six chairs and a nice cocktail table on the rear deck, plenty of room for the dinghy without it being in the way, full size appliances in a nearly full size galley, showers comfortably sized, a generator room bigger than the ER on the GB, easy access with plenty of space to get to various tanks, hoses, pipes, fittings, pumps, ect., stand up engine rooms with room to get around the 8V71's, a salon you could spend all day in gazing out the enormous windows, king size bed in the master. The bench seat up on the foredeck was much nicer than I thought it'd be, and the railings around the walkways was sturdy bordering on beefy and nearly hip height. It felt similar in height to a balcony railing in a house. There really was very little not to like about the boat.

The biggest gripe was access from the swim platform. I see what you all are saying about a cockpit. My question about that is this: Would a swim platform four or five feet wide with stairs running beam-wise down along the transom from the aft deck be a suitable substitute for a cockpit?

Oh, and did I mention it has lots of room?

Ll In UT

Thanks for well stated review results!

Regarding, your question: "Would a swim platform four or five feet wide with stairs running beam-wise down along the transom from the aft deck be a suitable substitute for a cockpit?" Might do so... if planned/designed/built correctly. What might please you, may not please others.

Also - 4 to 5 foot wide swim step could make it a bear to handle that big boat in steep following seas. Not to mention considerable structural [build it out] needs for such a large flat platform.