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For those not so worried about fuel prices;
40gph at 25kn with twin 680hp Volvos on Hamilton Jets.

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/boats-marine/motorboats/listing/3659124764?bof=p58a4XKd

00 Senator (2).jpg
 
darkside said:
For those not so worried about fuel prices
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There will be less and less of these as time passes, I am thinking. These figures make my 45 litres/hour at 10kn for both engines look positively thrifty, yet at $2.40/litre, that's still significant.

On the other hand, totally understand Nick and the Admiral's perspective, too.
 
Would note the comments about waiting for tides doesn’t consider steerage. In general it’s easier to steer going upstream (against a current) than down. Not infrequently in places where’s there strong currents and the need for frequent course corrections to avoid fixed obstacles if you can’t go faster than the current you have no steerage and can get into a whole lot of hurt. As a younger sailor had some very underpowered boats and some with no engines at all. Then needed to time both ebb and flow both coming in and out. Others due to difficult slip and fairway issues may want to go at slack or against the tide both coming in and out. Even in sailboats or FD hulls you need sufficient power available to stay safe.
Very much like David Gerr’s discussions about needed shaft HP, props and related issues to achieve a safe useable boat.
 
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Hippocampus said:
Would note the comments about waiting for tides doesn’t consider steerage. In general it’s easier to steer going upstream (against a current) than down. Not infrequently in places where’s there strong currents and the need for frequent course corrections to avoid fixed obstacles if you can’t go faster than the current you have no steerage and can get into a whole lot of hurt. As a younger sailor had some very underpowered boats and some with no engines at all. Then needed to time both ebb and flow both coming in and out. Others due to difficult slip and fairway issues may want to go at slack or against the tide both coming in and out. Even in sailboats or FD hulls you need sufficient power available to stay safe.
Very much like David Gerr’s discussions about needed shaft HP, props and related issues to achieve a safe useable boat.
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If you're doing 7 kts through the water, you're doing that regardless of current direction and you'll have the same steerage. Against a 3 kt current you'll just see a lower SOG of 4 kts, going with the current you'd be going 10.

The steerage problem only really happens if you slow down while moving with the current.
 
rslifkin said:
If you're doing 7 kts through the water, you're doing that regardless of current direction and you'll have the same steerage. Against a 3 kt current you'll just see a lower SOG of 4 kts, going with the current you'd be going 10.

The steerage problem only really happens if you slow down while moving with the current.
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So true!

As I'd mentioned on previous posts... I'd set our engines' rpms [perfectly synchronized by flashing light meter - and sound] so GPS read 7 knts in completely slack tide at trip beginning. Had purposefully started [timed] the cruise to ride with the current. Once the current really got underway... GPs read all the way up to 10.5 knots SOG. Meaning we were traveling with a 3.5 knot current [no appreciable wind]. And, of course boat handling was eze pezy! At end of cruise, as we exited SF Delta waters and entered SF Harbor the tide direction changed. Luckily we had but a few miles going against the tide and its current; which reached not more than 1 knot. Therefore, our GPS then read 6 knots SOG.

Now - if you run into "boiling" waters due to many factors boat handling can be affected at slower speeds whether going with or against the current.

And, in a row boat - you better plan well!! :ermm:
 
Kit_L said:
There will be less and less of these as time passes, I am thinking. These figures make my 45 litres/hour at 10kn for both engines look positively thrifty, yet at $2.40/litre, that's still significant.

On the other hand, totally understand Nick and the Admiral's perspective, too.
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There's no way around physics. With fuel at over $6/gal, running a power boat is $EXPENSIVE$. It's just a question of where in the excruciatingly expensive$$$ to unbearably expensive$$$$$ range you fall.

The only way around it seems to be either sail, or human power. I'm too old to go back to sailing, and cruising under human power means canoe camping, which I'm also too old for.

In another thread (I think semi-displacement?) there were some mentions of the old style (1920s/1930s) narrow powerboats that would make reasonable speed on modest power (at the trade off of less interior cabin space). A boat like that might bring the cost down to merely breathtakingly$$ expensive. I wonder if there might be at least of a bit of an increase in those styles of boats coming (like the Andreyale)?
 
bowball said:
But the cost of restoring and maintaining that wood boat…if the expertise still exists.
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Of course the expertise exists. There are yards that still build wood boats and the skills are still being taught… even on the east coast if one can believe it.
 
There will be less and less of these as time passes said:
Perhaps. This one sold four days after listing, sight unseen. At least two other buyers were ready to pounce. At present they are still very much sought after down here.
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Porgy said:
Of course the expertise exists. There are yards that still build wood boats and the skills are still being taught… even on the east coast if one can believe it.
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There are a number of renowned boatyards in Maine (as well as Rhode Island and Massachusetts) that only work on and build wood boats.

They turn out true works of art and beauty. The craftsmanship is breathtaking. So are the costs.

I think at this point, owning a wood boat is for either skilled boatrights, or the very wealthy for whom cost is no object.
 
Kit_L said:
There will be less and less of these as time passes, I am thinking. These figures make my 45 litres/hour at 10kn for both engines look positively thrifty, yet at $2.40/litre, that's still significant.

On the other hand, totally understand Nick and the Admiral's perspective, too.
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Feeling pretty chuffed about our 15 litres/hour pushing a 60 ft 65 tonne house through the water @ 7.5kn

We have always used currents where we can, a leftover from our sailing days.
 
Nick14 said:
There's no way around physics. With fuel at over $6/gal, running a power boat is $EXPENSIVE$. It's just a question of where in the excruciatingly expensive$$$ to unbearably expensive$$$$$ range you fall.

The only way around it seems to be either sail, or human power. I'm too old to go back to sailing, and cruising under human power means canoe camping, which I'm also too old for.
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Or actually go cruising to other lands.
Diesel pics in Malaysia currently $1.85/gallon US
 
Ex Pineapple Cup Racer Converted to Trawler

1999 Ex Racer, de rigged, re-fitted to the dark side.
 

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Wow! what a difference in just a few years since she was sitting on the bottom of the Swinomish!

Like the fellow said it must be a true privilege to be part of that crew.
 
So around here there’s places where steering gets real mushy because speed through the water is quite different than speed over ground going with the current and quite sensitive when against. Are you telling us it makes no difference in how much rudder or distance is needed to make the same turn upstream or down?
 
A great projected use as well. Wonder the specifics of the propulsion system. Totally electric when in sensitive areas.
 
Hippocampus said:
So around here there’s places where steering gets real mushy because speed through the water is quite different than speed over ground going with the current and quite sensitive when against. Are you telling us it makes no difference in how much rudder or distance is needed to make the same turn upstream or down?
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Of course it does
But you learns your boat and works her accordingly
 
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Hippocampus said:
So around here there’s places where steering gets real mushy because speed through the water is quite different than speed over ground going with the current and quite sensitive when against. Are you telling us it makes no difference in how much rudder or distance is needed to make the same turn upstream or down?
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True, turns will take more distance running with the current. But the boat should still be normally responsive. It'll still turn in the same water distance. When you get currents in confined areas with turbulence, swirling, or other inconsistent water movement is when handling can get really weird and hard to adapt to.
 
Maybe but if you’re moving at the same speed as the water you’re in your rudder does nothing. No movement across the rudder equals no steerage. Watch a trawler broach crossing a bar or when surfing in any condition or going with a rage between islands. A prop does nothing if the water it’s in is moving as fast as it’s spin. In that situation there’s no thrust and no load on it or the engine. Unless there’s a difference between the speed of the current (water) and the boat there’s no force on the rudder regardless of which way it’s turned.
Enhanced steerage when speed through the water increases going against a current. Faster speed of the water going across the prop.
So for a sufficiently underpowered or propped FD hull going WITH or against current can be problematic. That’s all I was trying to point out. Don’t understand why I am getting blow back on this. Have had multiple occasions where the boat has briefly lost steerage giving pucker moments. Admittedly on sail not power but would think the physics to be the same. When this happens the boat is not “normally responsive “ There’s NO steerage. Have had this happen under sail but also under power.
 
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Hippocampus said:
Maybe but if you’re moving at the same speed as the water you’re in your rudder does nothing. No movement across the rudder equals no steerage. Watch a trawler broach crossing a bar or when surfing in any condition or going with a rage between islands. A prop does nothing if the water it’s in is moving as fast as it’s spin. In that situation there’s no thrust and no load on it or the engine. Unless there’s a difference between the speed of the current (water) and the boat there’s no force on the rudder regardless of which way it’s turned.
Enhanced steerage when speed through the water increases going against a current. Faster speed of the water going across the prop.
So for a sufficiently underpowered or propped FD hull going WITH or against current can be problematic. That’s all I was trying to point out. Don’t understand why I am getting blow back on this. Have had multiple occasions where the boat has briefly lost steerage giving pucker moments. Admittedly on sail not power but would think the physics to be the same. When this happens the boat is not “normally responsive “ There’s NO steerage. Have had this happen under sail but also under power.
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Shouldn't be any blow back on this. The laws of physics are very strict.
 
Hippocampus said:
Maybe but if you’re moving at the same speed as the water you’re in your rudder does nothing. No movement across the rudder equals no steerage. Watch a trawler broach crossing a bar or when surfing in any condition or going with a rage between islands. A prop does nothing if the water it’s in is moving as fast as it’s spin. In that situation there’s no thrust and no load on it or the engine. Unless there’s a difference between the speed of the current (water) and the boat there’s no force on the rudder regardless of which way it’s turned.
Enhanced steerage when speed through the water increases going against a current. Faster speed of the water going across the prop.
So for a sufficiently underpowered or propped FD hull going WITH or against current can be problematic. That’s all I trying to point out. Don’t understand why I am getting blow back on this. Have had multiple occasions where the boat has briefly lost steerage giving pucker moments. Admittedly on sail not power but would think the physics to be the same. When this happens the boat is not “normally responsive “ There’s NO steerage.
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Following sea conditions are different, as you can easily get a sudden surge of water backwards past the rudder killing steering authority. Even more so under sail where you don't have prop wash to help keep the rudder flow in the correct direction. Swirling currents can push the boat around in weird ways too, making it all worse. But you'll be less affected under power as you have steady prop wash directed right onto the rudder so a total loss of flow (or reverse flow) is less likely. And got can always give a quick squirt of throttle to get more water over the rudder if it does happen.

A steady current doesn't present that problem though as you're moving forward through the water at a constant speed, the water is just also moving so you see a higher (or lower) speed over ground. Just have to watch the timing on turns as you'll be getting pushed along so your aiming point, etc. in a turn will be different. Sailing downwind in a current may be more of an issue as the push from the current would reduce your apparent wind and therefore lower your speed through the water (making for worse steering).
 
Seems like some confusion about whether you are talking about speed over ground vs speed through the water. In Hippo's example, I don't know why you would ever be moving at the same speed as the water (current) unless in a docking situation. In which case you would be in nuetral and the rudder would have no effect if you are drifting with the current. But if the prop is spinning, the boat speed relative to the water is the same with or against the current. Not sure I understand the point trying to be made. Maybe what Hippo means is that if you maintain a constant GPS speed (say 5 knts), steering will be better against the current than with it because your speed through the water is different.
 
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Northern Spy said:
Someone needs to bring Strumpet back to the West (wet) coast where it would be appreciated.
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I’m tempted! Use her for a few years in Maine and exploring the upper triangle of the loop (draft though?). Then bring her back. Not much outdoor space though.

I’m too scared by how much deferred maintenance there is though! And finding good resources.

Finally, donate her to an appropriate non profit in the San Juan’s.
 
Art said:
Seeing as this thread drifts off actual "Interesting Boats" - and, I don't mean to hijack.

I'm looking into a 1972 Hatt... please PM me [or post here] your take/cautions on the following:

500 hour 871 Detroit diesel’s / 2-1 Allison M20 Transmissions / Mathers electronic controls

Thanks! - Art
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500 hrs on a DD 8-71 is nothing... They will use a lot of fuel and leak oil but run forever...
 
Hippocampus said:
Maybe but if you’re moving at the same speed as the water you’re in your rudder does nothing. No movement across the rudder equals no steerage.
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I'm sorry Hipp... but this is a semi-omniferous oxymoron. "Maybe but if you’re moving at the same speed as the water you’re in your rudder does nothing. No movement across the rudder equals no steerage.

More simply stated: When not moving through the water.

Obviously that statement means you are not at all moving through the water but rather floating stationary in it as it moves you SOG at same speed it's current is moving SOG. Then of course no steerage, because do movement through water and there then can also be no propeller water thrust over the rudder.
 
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