GreenLine / Great Loop / Etc

HEY Trawler peoples!


My wife and I have been power boating 20+ years now. (Me, my whole 40 year life).


BUT, as we look forward to retirement (2043), (yea, I like to plan ahead, that's how you get to do these things).


So, we've been drooling over the (a used) SEA-RAY L650 for a long time (bear with me), and it's an amazing boat. However... with the recent stock market collapse, and fuel costs now higher than blood or ink jet printer fluid, we fell in love with the GreenLines.



It's been our dream now to do the great loop during retirement, and take our time to visit/travel/see/etc. (any one else watching Jo and Scho)?
https://www.youtube.com/c/SchoandJo




And, I think since the GreatLoop is (I assume) significantly 'no wake' the Green line (looking at the 45 fly). seems a PERFECT fit.



We already each have Teslas, and I installed a heat pump water heater, and dual source heat for the house. So I'm all about the efficiency and engineering.



To that end, does anyone have heat pump water heaters or solar collectors for hot water on these live-a-boards? You could use waste heat from the A/C systems or engines or what's the energy hogs on these things? I love a long hot shower.



Are the stoves induction?

Can I setup an outlet to charge the TorQeedo outboard for the dingy?



Can I put like 2x more solar panels on this thing? 100kWh battery pack?!


It's so cool to see this tech today, and in 10-15 years it's going to be amazing. We could travel in silence on the water, and have A/C, hot water, cook, etc.



I like big batteries and I cannot lie


anyway, I love tech, love big batteries, and we cannot wait to travel by water! Today we run out of Essex, MD and cruise at 42 MPH (tops out at 68ish). But at $5.50/gal and 1.47MPG, know it can't last forever...


Can't wait to see more out of green-line, and more out of the industry.


Not exactly happy to slow down, but can't run like we used to lol. 29' boat crashing 4' waves at 45 MPH for 50 miles+ a day starts to hurt a bit anymore.



anyway, here's the current boat, not exactly a trawler

Welcome aboard, SabrToothSqrl!


I am a Greenline fan, having enjoyed my GL33 for going on 12 years now.
I like the solar/hybrid concept. I like having house-current 24x7 without the need to run a diesel generator. I especially like cruising on electric where I can, which means calm days at sea and especially in canals. I like it because of the silence. I also find that electric provides FAR greater precision in handling for docking and locking. I have 6x300w=1.8kw total solar array on my 33. I don't think the 45 comes with more than two panels. With that, you won't be doing much charging of the big hybrid batteries.


My point? There are many reasons I can think of to buy a Greenline, but saving money on fuel is probably not one of them. If you are constantly having to "subsidize" your electric cruising by using your diesel engines to charge the batteries, then you are wasting money in the long run, as you lose every time your convert energy. I admit, I do this sometimes, however, simply because I value silent cruising over the inefficiency of charging batteries with the diesel.



The only scenario I can think of where you can truly save money is for extensive canal cruising. You leave a marina with a full charge on your battery, travel ~15 to 20nm on a sunny day through some locks and to the next marina, where you charge up again on the electricity typically included with the dockage fee. In 2019, we did a lot of this. Used the diesel engine very little going through France. I suspect eventually, this party will come to an end when there are more electric boats and more marinas start metering.

P.S.

On my GL33 (single 165hp VW Marine Turbo Diesel), my hull speed is ~7 knots and at this speed, in calm seas, I get:
- 4.5 nm per US gallon if the diesel is charging the hybrid battery
- 5.4 nm per US gallon if the diesel is not doing any charging of the hybrid battery

Greenline

Hello SabrToothSqrl! We have been Greenline 39 owners since 2019. We love the boat. There have been a few issues but overall we wouldn't want any other boat. You had several questions that I wanted to answer.

To that end, does anyone have heat pump water heaters or solar collectors for hot water on these live-a-boards?

There are two ways to heat water, one is the heat exchanger from the engine. So whenever you run the diesel you've got plenty of hot water. The other is to run the separate diesel water heater. It is very efficient.

You could use waste heat from the A/C systems or engines or what's the energy hogs on these things?

The energy hogs are by far the reverse cycle HVAC systems. The solar panels and the LiPo batteries can easily handle the other loads, lighting, refrigeration, etc. If you are in a warm climate, you'll want to go for additional battery capacity if you plan to run the AC units for a few days at anchor. If you are in cold climate like the PNW, using a diesel cabin heater will significantly reduce your electric energy requirements. They use a lot less electricity.

I love a long hot shower.

The issue will be the water tank capacity not the hot water! On any boat, you need to be fairly conservative with your water usage unless you are hooked up to city water at the marina.

Are the stoves induction?

Yes, the cooktops are induction on the later boats. Propane was (and may still be) an option on the earlier 33s and 40s. The microwave/convection ovens are electric.

Can I setup an outlet to charge the TorQeedo outboard for the dingy?

Yes, they have several 120v outlets throughout the boat. We have a Torqeedo 1103 and charge it easily on the boat.

Can I put like 2x more solar panels on this thing? 100kWh battery pack?

On the 45, you can get a hardtop for the flybridge which gives you space for several more solar panels. The other option is the Coupe version which comes standard with 8 solar panels or 2.4 KW. Also on the 45 you can have up to 6 x 13.3 KWh LiPo batteries for 80 KWh total. That will cost some $$$.

A few other things to consider. You do make some tradeoffs for cruising speed on hybrid Greenlines. The larger engines are not hybrid compatible so you need to decide how you want to use the boats. The overall layouts on Greenlines are outstanding across the range. We think the tradeoffs are definitely worth it.

Jon L.
"Gratitude"
2019 Greenline 39

Just to clear up a few things. I do think Greenline could be an excellent choice and read carefully what the two owners have written. Cost savings are not the reason to choose them. Much of the loop is very hot in summer so A/C will be needed. Also, you commented on much of it being "no-wake." Actually very little no-wake, just the Erie and a few small areas of the ICW. That doesn't mean a lack of wake won't be appreciated.

Interesting! thanks all! I'm surprised that the hybrid approach doesn't save more fuel costs.

I'd think that running the engines to move (like 8 knots?) charging, then using the batteries to move would result in better overall MPG, but I also know you get nothing for free. And today's solar panels can't come close to providing the energy to actually move a car, let alone a boat.



You are correct - the hot shower limitation is the water onboard. I forgot that part!

Anyone run a RO system, fed from the water you're in?

Is it drinkable then? or just for showers?



Diesel Hot Water - that's interesting - as efficient as it is, it's usually more energy efficient to move heat than make heat - but that may not translate to cost efficient. I have an air to water heat pump water heater for my house. Sucks heat out of the basement, and gives me hot water - I wonder if something could be adapted for the marine industry - your A/C would heat your water tank.



Do the A/C systems use Air to Air for the exchange or air to water like some of the performance boats I'm used to?



I'm just as excited about the engineering as I am the looping So much to learn! My current boat has zero amenities. Unless it reduces weight or adds horsepower, it's not needed.

SabrToothSqrl said:

Interesting! thanks all! I'm surprised that the hybrid approach doesn't save more fuel costs.

I'd think that running the engines to move (like 8 knots?) charging, then using the batteries to move would result in better overall MPG, but I also know you get nothing for free. And today's solar panels can't come close to providing the energy to actually move a car, let alone a boat.

Click to expand...

Just to clarify further. It all depends on how you use your boat. Any travel you do on electric, where the energy originated from charging at the marina or via solar panels is a clear cost-savings win for you. Any charging of the hybrid battery via diesel would be a bit of a financial negative for you, in the long run. These are some cost minimization tricks:
- accept low speeds. Running 3-4 knots will extend your electric range significantly vs. running full-speed on electric. (Why? Peukert's curve. https://www.victronenergy.com/media/pg/SmartShunt/en/battery-capacity-and-peukert-exponent.html
- Use good quality anti-fouling paint to ensure the bottom is as smooth and clean as possible.
- If you mount any stern thruster, do not mount it externally, as appendages cause drag/friction. Go retractable.

- Consider running with water tanks only partially full, if that does not present any inconvenience. This savings of several hundred pounds will let the boat sit a bit higher in the water, resulting in less friction/drag
- On days with long journeys on diesel, run the last 10-15 miles on electric when you know you'll have good power for charging at the marina you will arrive at. Do not run the first 10-15 miles of your journey on electric, however, as that will automatically result in the diesel engine charging the hybrid battery.
- On the GL33, I can run 2.1 knots on solar alone, on nice sunny days (i.e. while also having the 12v battery charger running and the inverter running the 220v refrigerator and a couple of pc chargers. Not an exciting speed, but good to know...and a possible "get home" option, should you ever encounter diesel engine failure.
- Consider tidal currents (where relevant) just as a sailboat would when planning your journeys.
- Do not store anything on top of even a portion of one solar panel. Try to avoid adding superstructure (bimini, etc.) that will create a shadow on even a portion of a single solar panel.

There are many reasons to go electric, to go solar, to go hybrid today on boats on cars and on homes. Potential cost savings ranks well down the list of reasons. But then look at the predominance of diesels vs gas on this site and savings on diesels takes years to achieve. Electric is driven by environmental reasons including your personal environment of quiet and solitude. It's also driven by those wanting to be part of the future. Then there is the potential for long term savings, but cost savings aren't going to accrue in big numbers immediately.

Homes and businesses are good examples. When we first looked at solar, the payback was 12 to 15 years. Slowly came under 10 years. Right now, even with government subsidies is around 5 to 7 years. Not a payback we'd normally accept, but looking forward one we're moving with on the most favorable states.

When first looking at hybrid and electric cars, there was no payback. Now, our business fleet is Honda and an Accord Hybrid only costs $1200 more and gets 48/47 mpg vs 30/38. Most of our employees use very little gas, almost like they have a competition to see who can go the longest without filling. Meanwhile they love all other aspects of the car. None of them would choose to go back to their gas only model. We now have several eSprinter Vans for delivery. We also have some school buses being tested but they are still far from economically justifiable if we had to buy them.

We purchased our current personal cars in 2012. Have thought about new, but waiting for electric sports cars that appeal to us.

I'd say the first step in financial consideration of a hybrid boat is finding that it won't cost you more in the long term. Then next will come savings. Scott's boat has so many advantages and pleasantries without cost savings that any cost savings are just added benefits.

ScottC said:

- accept low speeds. Running 3-4 knots will extend your electric range significantly vs. running full-speed on electric. (Why? Peukert's curve. https://www.victronenergy.com/media/pg/SmartShunt/en/battery-capacity-and-peukert-exponent.html

Click to expand...

One quick clarification. The Peukert effect from heavier power loads on batteries is overwhelmingly a lead-acid battery issue. With Lithium Ion batteries, the Peukert exponent is essentially 1 so there is little effect on battery capacity within the range of intended use.


The gain from going slow in a boat is because the energy required to move the boat increases by the square of the speed. So doubling speed, say from 3 to 6 kts, will require 4 times as much power. You will get to your destination in half the time, but it will take twice the battery capacity to do it, i.e. 1/2 the nm/kWh of stored energy.

twistedtree said:

One quick clarification. The Peukert effect from heavier power loads on batteries is overwhelmingly a lead-acid battery issue. With Lithium Ion batteries, the Peukert exponent is essentially 1 so there is little effect on battery capacity within the range of intended use.
.

Click to expand...

Thanks, TT. Did not know that!

Hi Folks- One other advantage to having an electric motor option with the hybrid set-up is enhanced maneuverability. We always come in and out of marinas on electric drive. You have much finer control over speed than with a diesel engine which must run at idle speeds or higher. Instead of bumping in and out of gear, you can run your electric engine at any RPM. This allows you to ease in and out slips. Our boat has both bow and stern thrusters, combined with the single engine in electric drive it's a different experience. It's also virtually silent so it's easy to communicate during the docking process. Greenline claims that at least 10-20% of the time is spent coming in and out of marinas and therefore you'll have less engine hours on average compared to non-hybrid engine installations. (Electric hours don't "count" as engine hours since the diesel isn't running.)

Jon L.
"Gratitude"
2019 Greenline 39

I think you can count on one thing, which is that the state of the boating world in 2043 will be very different than it is today. Even if fuel prices come back to ‘reasonable’, it will be different. From hybrids to EV boats to foil lift bulls, etc. Unless you plan to be very wealthy then, you will probably be buying a boat made between now and 2030.