Flying Coney - 82ft sailing ship project based on historic trawler

Hi folks,

I'm Daniel and I bought myself a huge (in any meaning) project. Together with my girlfriend Barbara we want to restore her back to the sailing ship she once was.



The boat was built 1950 in The Netherlands. Maybe some parts like the frames are even older since they look like they are from a wooden ship. Anyway 1950 she was built or rebuilt with very thick riveted steel plates. from the 8-10mm steel on most places 5-8mm are left and thats good.

After her life as fishing vessel she was converted to a tall ship. However she lost her mast and was converted to a motersailing houseboat used as a floating artist workshop for some years.

Our dream is to convert her back into a sailing ship. But that's the vision. The dream... We hope that we will be finished in about 5 years.

Now we are up to more, lets say, realistic projects. We want to tackle the rust issue inside and out. Strip the interior. Recoat everything. Put insulation in. New electric, plumbing and heating systems. Overhaul the engine, the generator.... And the list goes on and on and on...

From the technical standpoint everything looks ok but not good. We are a bit nervous because we haven't hauled out the boat pre purchase and we are planning a lift out soon. So keep your fingers crossed.

Before you point your finger at us saying how stupid we are, there is a recent hull thickness report and the ship was reasonable priced wich left some room for repairs. If you still think we are crazy, that's ok also but then you are probably no boat owner.

We have a single DAF 1160 DKTA with 320hp. The engine is turbocharged and aftercooled and therefore relatively small for a ship that size. The good thing is relatively low engine hours but a bit cosmetic wouldn't do any harm.

At the moment we are pretty much in the planning and "look what I found" stage of the project. Water is dripping in at the stuffing box and also somewhere up front. Probably a leaking rivet.

I hope to find some good advice about all the upcoming projects in this forum. Where else should I find advice for boats slightly on the bigger side?

The plan is to keep you updated through this tread and I will ask a lot of questions here, that's for sure. But if you want to see more, for example how we scooped out 1500 liters of oily bilge water, I upload regular videos on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SailingFlyingConey

If you have any questions feel free to ask!
Regards Daniel

Wow. Good luck! What’s your vision for the future with this boat, beyond just fixing her up?

Oeanda said:

Wow. Good luck! What’s your vision for the future with this boat, beyond just fixing her up?

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The reason we want to address the rust issue first is to give us more time for the other projects.

The vision is to convert her back into a tops'l schooner. So two masts and square topsails on the schooner mast. For that we need the rig, we have to lower the quarter deck down to bulwark hight and we want to lower the wheelhouse as well.

We are not completely sure how we want to use the boat once she is finished. But the layout will probably be something like that:
a big captains cabin aft
a big saloon with gally
two more luxurious guest cabins
and as many bunks in the foreship as possible

So a mix out of a private yacht and a traditional sailing ship. I can see myself sailing with trainees and youth groups. Not so much with charter guests.

Welcome aboard and congrats on your new boat. What a project!!! Have a lot of fun. From our experience I would recommend making a list of everything that you need to do or think you need to do. Then schedule your work like an emergency room, do what needs to be done to stop the bleeding. I know that the fun projects that make things look nice are what people usually want to do first, but I like to fix the important things to stop any further deterioration. Anyway good luck and keep the updates and photos coming.

Well I commend you on your bravery, and look forward to the video of the interior.

Greetings,
Welcome aboard. Yep. You're nuts. Enjoy yourselves.

Comodave said:

Then schedule your work like an emergency room, do what needs to be done to stop the bleeding.

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I think that's a good starting point for a discussion about our first big project.

Well, we have a rust problem in an unknown dimension. At least from the inside we want to treat the hull mostly DIY. We want to start in the foreship because we do not use that compartment of the hull for anything but storage.

The first step ist streicht forward, we have to get rid of the interior. Noting of value in there. So that step can be done quick and dirty.

The next step will be to scratch the sticky black stuff off that's currently protecting the hull. It's some sort of bitumen. So I guess heating it up with a heat gun and scratching it off with a knife is the best solution? (Attached pic)


And then we reach the area were there are a lot of solutions but it's very tricky to get detailed informations about what's best for the DIY user.


1. Sand blasting or hydro blasting. I'm willing to invest in equipment. But I'm not sure if it would be cheaper to hire someone to do the sandblasting. I tried to do a little bit research on laser blasting but it seams that I'm about 5 years to early for affordable options.

2. Zincspraying either flamespry or arc spray. Is it necessary or overkill?

3. What is the standard coating paint to give me a long service life.

4. From all what I read foam spray isolation seam to be the gold standard. But neither Brupeg, SV Seeker, Janice Bannon and so on are going down this route. Is it a good option in a riveted hull. What happens if a rivet gets leaky under the foam?

I see where Brupeg is not going to treat the area of the enclosed bow he is currently plating over on the assumptiom there will ne no oxgen there once it is used up by the oxidation. I have not seen him discuss how or if he plans to insulate below the waterline for his arctic exploration vessel.

Daniel, just some feedback, one guy's opinion:

- I think she looks great as a trawler. I'd chop off the fake plant-on bowsprit and trailboards, keep the foremast short as a cargo mast, and utilize it as a steadying sail.
- Love the look of riveted hulls. The steel may be a black-iron and not A39 common steel, so make sure to employ the correct persons for repairs. Welding may not be straight forward.
- 5mm of steel isn't healthy in the hull. Great plan to completely strip the interior and obtain complete access to the hull for a refurb.
- Speaking refurb... keep her traditional and old-school. I can picture 2 or 3 bulkhead drip diesel heaters keeping her toasty and warm, the old-school way, while pushing through first year ice.
- Considering your location, you may wish to scrap the main engine and have Abato provide you a nice new Weichai. It's the heart of your vessel and the #1 safety item.
- Engine power sounds about right, but you'll need to obtain more specifics to size correctly.

If you're moored in Amsterdam then I might come visit your incredible project this Christmas! Good luck.

Olsalt said:

After her life as fishing vessel she was converted to a tall ship. However she lost her mast and was converted to a motersailing houseboat used as a floating artist workshop for some years.

Our dream is to convert her back into a sailing ship. But that's the vision. The dream... We hope that we will be finished in about 5 years.

Click to expand...

Olsalt said:

The vision is to convert her back into a tops'l schooner. So two masts and square topsails on the schooner mast. For that we need the rig, we have to lower the quarter deck down to bulwark hight and we want to lower the wheelhouse as well.

We are not completely sure how we want to use the boat once she is finished. But the layout will probably be something like that:
a big captains cabin aft
a big saloon with gally
two more luxurious guest cabins
and as many bunks in the foreship as possible

Click to expand...

Welcome. Nice ship!

So she started as a fishing vessel. Sail, power, or both?

Was the current pilothouse and quarterdeck original to that?

Then converted to a tall ship. Rig?

Or was the pilothouse and quarterdeck added after losing the "tall ship" mast?

She looks so nice to me as is, and the pilothouse/quarterdeck would seem to me to be so very useful...

That loosing any of the the pilothouse/quarterdeck spaces would be a sort of step backwards. Even if a viable sailing rig is fashioned to take advantage of doing that.

Your boat, your dream, of course! But isn't there a viable sailing rig that wouldn't cause you to have to lose the aft spaces? Even if not a tops'l schooner rig? Even if "only" a motorsailer?

-Chris

Olsalt said:

...

The next step will be to scratch the sticky black stuff off that's currently protecting the hull. It's some sort of bitumen. So I guess heating it up with a heat gun and scratching it off with a knife is the best solution? (Attached pic)
...

1. Sand blasting or hydro blasting. I'm willing to invest in equipment. But I'm not sure if it would be cheaper to hire someone to do the sandblasting. I tried to do a little bit research on laser blasting but it seams that I'm about 5 years to early for affordable options.

2. Zincspraying either flamespry or arc spray. Is it necessary or overkill?

3. What is the standard coating paint to give me a long service life.

4. From all what I read foam spray isolation seam to be the gold standard. But neither Brupeg, SV Seeker, Janice Bannon and so on are going down this route. Is it a good option in a riveted hull. What happens if a rivet gets leaky under the foam?

Click to expand...

The black stuff sounds like tar/bitumen that was used for rust proofing. If it is still preventing rust and does not smell, you might want to just leave it alone.

If you sandblast, the metal needs to go to white or near white condition for the epoxy paints requirements I have read. Sandblasting is hard work and might be cheaper to hire out.

Epoxy paints are used for commonly today but flame spraying is used as well. My question is a zinc flame spray AND them epoxy painted over kill? Getting the interior of the hull coated correctly is very important on a steel boat.

My two cents is that the best insulation for a boat is the Armacell like materials, such as, https://www.armacell.us/products/aparmaflexsaaparmaflexfssa/. The Dashews used this type of materials on the FPBs. I saw one home build that use this type of insulation, maybe 1/2 or 1 inch thick to completely cover the hull interior and then filled in the rest of the space with rock wool. The rock wool is easy to remove if needed, the Armacell type insulation took a bit more work to remove but likely easier than spray foam.

Later,
Dan

Olsalt, I had an older steel hull though not as old as yours. It had been
internally coated with the tarry substance you describe. Being a primitive
adhesive it was in various states of preservation depending on the location throughout the hull.

You may find corrosion underneath the coating in spots as you remove it. To
protect the remaining metal that stuff needs to be completely removed with a
combination of scraping and solvent stripping to bare metal before blasting, IMO.

I have no experience with riveted ferrous hulls but I doubt loose rivets are of
any greater concern than the remaining thickness of the plates. Epoxy paint
would do as much to prevent further corrosion as a zinc process, also IMO.

One more thought: you don't mention if the boat is currently hauled.
I think that a hull that old should be 100% waterproof before I would
start stripping and coating the interior. That means doing all the
needed exterior repairs first so that the interior work will be rust-free.
Good luck!

Today we pumped out about 600 liters bilge water that accumulated over the last 5 weeks or so. I think it's time for the haul out...

Thanks for all the answers. Please have in mind that I spend the last few hours in the dinghy moving that bilge water to the pump out station. After driving 200 miles to the vet. (Dolce is recovering fine but looks like Frankensteins bunny) So my answers might make sense or not. Not sure.

Mako said:

Daniel, just some feedback, one guy's opinion:

- I think she looks great as a trawler. I'd chop off the fake plant-on bowsprit and trailboards, keep the foremast short as a cargo mast, and utilize it as a steadying sail.
- Love the look of riveted hulls. The steel may be a black-iron and not A39 common steel, so make sure to employ the correct persons for repairs. Welding may not be straight forward.
- 5mm of steel isn't healthy in the hull. Great plan to completely strip the interior and obtain complete access to the hull for a refurb.
If you're moored in Amsterdam then I might come visit your incredible project this Christmas! Good luck.

Click to expand...

Actually the bow sprit is original from her sailing ship days. Probably not the most beautiful one. What's missing is the wooden jib-boom. The former owner shortened the bow sprit about one meter so that she is under 25 meters LOA. As a sailing ship she was probably a bit over 100ft in length.

1950 is just some years before they started to weld the hulls here in the Netherlands and the good thing is, there are plenty of yards having experience with old steel boats. We are moored next to three ships older than mine. One even built 1887.

The minimum required steel thickness is 3,4mm. Most places are 6-8mm. One spot down to 4,5. But every bit of steel converted to iron oxide is lost for ever so we know how important it is to start working.

She's a big unit and a big project, best of luck with her.

You sure have yourself a project. It will be great to follow along, see what you find, and see how you restore everything.

rgano said:

I see where Brupeg........

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Man, that's been a long time on the hard
Fees must be crippling

Going on that, my advice to OP is get the hull sound, get tools and gear onboard and get her back in to continue work at anchor.

Simi 60 said:

Man, that's been a long time on the hard
Fees must be crippling

Going on that, my advice to OP is get the hull sound, get tools and gear onboard and get her back in to continue work at anchor.

Click to expand...

I can write something about the wheelhouse tomorrow.

Currently we are not on the hard. We are in a marina near Amsterdam. Marina fees are quite affordable over here. We pay about 250€ a month. But time on the hard isn't. Usually it's way cheaper to get the stuff done by the yard. Quick, expensive but usually good work. I'm not the only one with a big steel boat in holland.

Thans for all the good wishes!

Zinc coating stops all steel corrosion. And even when there's a break in the coating, the rusting is minimal and gives you time to repair. It works the best underneath spray foam insulation. I've seen many repair and remodel jobs on commercial vessels. When the foam was removed, it was like brand new underneath.

I built and worked on steel boats and ships. Spraying on zinc is better than epoxy paint. But it takes good surface prep like sand blasting. Silica sand makes the best surface, but you have to wear a respirator if you want to use your lungs later. It may be illegal in some countries.
On new boats, I sprayed everything inside and out except for tank insides. There are good inside tank coatings and diesel reacts with zinc. It's ok with water tanks. I had two ex-navy tugs that were zinc coated about 20 years before I bought them. Absolutely no rust except where chain and lines rubbed thru. I kept a Metco spray gun for repairs. The gun is easy to use. Often one shows up on ebay.

If I was going to take on that project I would try and figure out the Laser blasting. I know it is expensive, but if it works 1/10 as good as they make it look in YouTube videos it would save you many thousand hours, and likely be well worth the money. If it works good, it might be a very profitable side business for you too, doing work on other peoples metal boats. I had the hull sides, and bottom of my previous 40' Aluminum trawler media blasted about 6 years ago. I think it cost around $12,000 US dollars. After watching that process being done, I would not want to DIY the interior blasting. The exterior wouldn't be too bad if you could find a place that will let you do it yourself, (You can't where I live), but the interior would be too horribly unpleasant for me.

I enjoyed watching the videos, and look forward to following along with the project. I think the two of you are well suited to the task and have a much better chance of success than most people.

Congratulations, and good luck, she is a beauty. I suggest you contact the owners of the bark Europa - "www.barkeuropa.com" - because, although it is a bigger ship than yours, she started out almost 100 years ago as a German light ship, and the current owners converted her into a 3-masted square-rigged sailing ship, also with a riveted steel hull. I sailed on her to Antartica a few years ago, and can tell you they got really good at keeping the ship running, and running well. I heard a lot of the conversion stories, the owners seem very happy to share what they know, and over the years they have built up a huge bank of knowledge for probably all the same things you will be encountering. Europa has sailed through every condition you are likely to encounter, sails well - which surprised me - and can motor at around 6 knots on her single diesel when she has to. In the right conditions we were able to sail at close to 10 knots, even with reefed sails, which I can tell you feels almost like flying on a 180-ft ship. Europa generally spends the summer and early Fall in and around Europe, so it is a good time to reach out to them, before they return to South America and Antarctica again in October/November.
I think you will be having some wonderful times with your new "baby', look forward to reading more as you go on.
( Although they are based in Holland, everyone there speaks really good English.)
Peter

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Welcome aboard. Yep. You're nuts. Enjoy yourselves.

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I have to agree with RT on this one, but I do admire your courage and enthusiasm. I especially enjoyed the part that you got a good price so there's some money left over for the repairs and projects you plan. Wish you nothing but the best, but oh boy!

She's a beautiful boat, indeed.
Looks nice as a trawler with the current setup, but I also can imagine her as sailing ship.
I am curious about your "blasting" experience of the interior of the boat as I am facing a similar problem: how to clean old paint off in a very confined area of the bilge.

ranger58sb said:

Welcome. Nice ship!

So she started as a fishing vessel. Sail, power, or both?

Was the current pilothouse and quarterdeck original to that?

Then converted to a tall ship. Rig?

Or was the pilothouse and quarterdeck added after losing the "tall ship" mast?

She looks so nice to me as is, and the pilothouse/quarterdeck would seem to me to be so very useful...

That loosing any of the the pilothouse/quarterdeck spaces would be a sort of step backwards. Even if a viable sailing rig is fashioned to take advantage of doing that.

Your boat, your dream, of course! But isn't there a viable sailing rig that wouldn't cause you to have to lose the aft spaces? Even if not a tops'l schooner rig? Even if "only" a motorsailer?

-Chris

Click to expand...

Thanks for all your comments, the advices and the interest you show. Sharing this experience is a very important aspect of this adventure for us.


The wheelhouse dates back to her fishing days. It had roughly the same hight but was shorter because it had no doors on the side. The entrance was aft on the sbt side. When she was converted to the sailing ship back in 1977 the wheelhouse was just lowered. In her last conversion, so in 1987, the wheelhouse was raised again and extended with the side entrance doors.

Our idea with the wheelhouse is to lower it down as it was when she was a sailing ship. Imaging handling the mainsail up there. Currently the wheelhouse is about 3 meters above deck! But we do not want to shorten it to give us more living space.

the quarterdeck with the light flooded cabin below was also added in her last conversion. The old sleeping bunks from her fishing days are still underneath a secret hatch. The fun thing is there is almost standing hight in the cellar as well. We think there is enough room if we drop the quarterdeck on bulwark hight, so about 1,20 meter. That would give us the best out of two worlds.

It is really though to handle the boat if you have to climb the stairs to have access to the quarter deck. Visibility aft from the wheelhouse is next to non existent. And it really makes the useable deck space much smaller.

As a rig we want to go back to the original. Not only square sails are providing a fair amount of power but they are also unique so if your sailing with guests that's something interesting. But we hope that it's possible to built the rig in stages. So first the steel masts with for and aft basic sails. Than the bow sprit and the wooden topmasts and as a lost stage the yards for the topsl's.

However the rig is the last huge project we want to tackle. We are talking about 120 000 - 150 000€. And it's a nice to have and not a necessity. So after we are done with the refit we hopefully have the time and the money to ad the rig.

The current rig doesn't look all that bad. Maybe I ask a rigger for advice and thats we try it out some day. Just to save some fuel on the short passages we currently make....

your 82ft trawler

Daniel,
Congratulations, and best of luck with your project. I couldn't tell from your posts or from the video where you are docked, but if it is feasible I recommend contacting the folks at the Europa's office in the Netherlands.( www.barkeuropa.com")
Europa is a 3-masted, square-rigged bark that sails regularly around most of the world, and on which I went to Antarctica a few years ago.
What I think would make them helpful to you is that Europa started life as a pilot ship at the mouth of the Elbe river, and was converted to a square-rigged sailing ship about 20 years ago. She has a plated steel hull like your boat, with a diesel that is used in close waters or ice; she can do around 6 knots with the engine, and up to 10 knots under sail, which surprised me, but made me realize that the people who oversaw the conversion knew what they were doing, and have sources for anything you might be looking for in your project. Europa is generally in Europe at this time of year, with time set aside for repairs and maintenance before they leave in October for South America and the Antarctic, so this may be a good time to find them available.
Given the changes they made, your project seems completely feasible and realistic; I hope things go well for you, and look forward to watching the progress you make!

Good luck,

Peter

Thank you @PNK

Going to Harlingen and talk to all the tall ship people there is very high up on our to do list. Currently Europa is located at the Azores. But when she is back we will contact her captain and friendly ask for a tour and and an interview. I think it's also something very interesting for the people watching the channel. One small correction, she was built as a fire ship not as a pilot ship. But that makes it even more interesting because she was built without a sailing rig.

Unfortunately after three weeks on the mend our little Bunny Dolce her medical condition declined very quickly. We tried everything but she died on the way to the vet. We found her just 4 years ago next to a very busy road on lake Garda. Hence the name Dolce because we were eating ice cream before we found her. She was just a little baby rabbit back then with feet and ears much to big for her body. She really was a one of a kind bunny and always stayed our little baby bunny.

We are sorry but that means no video this week. But we have everything prepared to start with gutting the interior in the foreship. That is the first step. If we can judge the condition of the hull we can make a plan. One step after another.

Since the last post a lot of things happened. We were on the search for a non existing leak in the hull and destroyed the whole interior. The priorities switched a little bit when we removed the cork isolation in the saloon area. Wow, that's a lot of rust... We probably have to put new frames in in this section. It seams like the previous conversations allways were done above the old installation. A lot was quickly added and no one cared much about the base. Well in the hull thickness report we trust...

We also have a new video out: https://youtu.be/61by7I-BxQc

Condolences on your unfortunate loss of Bunny Dolce!

Keep up the videos. I'm definitely enjoying them. And good luck with the project.


I think you were planning to refit those spaces anyway, right? Maybe just not right now? Regardless, I think it's always better to have a good handle early in the project on the full scope of work that you face. Tearing out that interior and seeing what's behind it will help you best plan your refit priorities. "Discovery" is the most important part of a project like this.

twistedtree said:

Keep up the videos. I'm definitely enjoying them. And good luck with the project.


I think you were planning to refit those spaces anyway, right? Maybe just not right now? Regardless, I think it's always better to have a good handle early in the project on the full scope of work that you face. Tearing out that interior and seeing what's behind it will help you best plan your refit priorities. "Discovery" is the most important part of a project like this.

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The initial plan is to start in the foreship and after the foreship is empty continue with the saloon. That we it would have been easier to store things.But within 6-12 month it was planned to strip the interior in both sections. Including to build an improvised gally in the wheelhouse. After these sections in the hull are rust free and ideally isolated we will build an provisory interior in the hull and have a look what's underneath our aft cabin. The hull in the engine room looks fine though.

that's probably the most important stage in the project because we need to power through it. No way of selling the boat during this stage. We think we will need about 2 years for completion.

Also within the next to years we try to make boat ready for about 20 day passengers so that we can attend at harbor festivals and earn some money. Just as a plan B if the YT algorithm changes.