To Repair or Sell Grand Banks 36 Classic

Capt Dadio said:

Fellow Boaters I have need of your help.
My Lehman 135 overheated (loose fan belt) and shut down. We had to be towed in.

The engine would not restart. Flywheel will not turn. Slight smell when the valve cover was removed. No water in oil. Expansion tank holds coolant.

Bottom line, getting an engine out of a Grand Banks is not easy. I have done it twice. But the engine should come out to be repaired. (My mechanic) He suspects broken shaft.

Cummins has an engine, 6BT Retro I believe, that has been known to replace the hard-to-find Lehman engine in decent shape. Cost around $10,000. I figure the replacement costs including on-the-hard would be between $15,000-$20,000.

So here is my dilemma:
Wife wants to sell. Tired of engine swapping. Does not want to spend another dime, sell as is.

I see on the boards, Grand Banks are a desired boat, running.
Not sure about not running.
Should I repair, go through the trip to the yard, spend the money and then sell
\or
Sell as is and take the hit?
Your thoughts?

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Obviously there are prospective buyers for almost any scenario. In Nov 2020 I bought a 1973 GB36 fairly cheaply given the market. The seller was motivated for personal reasons and I knew that the boat had problems as well as some strengths. I am doing pretty much all the work myself, but I am experienced and I enjoy the work. I offered about 10% under what was already a fairly low price and they readily accepted, as I think they understood that there probably weren't going to be a lot of people in my position. If I were considering the market value of my labor I should have offered less, but I was happy with what I got for myself, I liked the seller as a person and he turned out to be very helpful and generous to me after the sale. My point is that you will likely experience a small market in a non running condition. You will likely need to be very flexible in your pricing, and it may take a while to move. I'm not suggesting what you do, just conveying my experience and opinion on what your options will likely be if you choose to sell as is. Best wishes.

As several have mentioned, "broken crankshaft" doesn't make a lot of sense. It's easy to tell if you can free it up -- either bar it over or use the starter and see if the other end turns.


It could be a number of things, but the thought that it has water in a cylinder -- hydrolocked -- would be my best guess.


Jim

I don't agree with the "off or on" mentalities.

Why not put it up for sale at a price you can live with....if someone comes along quick and your price sell it is satisfactory....perfect. if not, as time goes on, keep working on determining what actually is wrong and go from there.

There is always people looking for good deals all the way up to turn key boats.

One thing is for certain, you will own the boat till you sell it and people rarely buy boats they don't think are for sale.

So few things in life are either "on or off"....."all or nothing".....etc..etc....

Put it up for sale at market value with a working engine. Advertise engine is undergoing work. That way when a buyer comes along you can decide, be ready to sell as is or repaired. The market is slowing, maybe even starting to drop. Gives you time to improve value by determining what is really wrong with the engine.
It seems the end result is you will be boat less in the end as your wife wants out.

psneeld said:

Typical "off or on" mentalities.
So few things in life are either "on or off"....."all or nothing".....etc..etc....

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The crankshaft is either broken or not. Anyone selling or buying a boat would want an answer to this simple binary question.

SoWhat said:

The crankshaft is either broken or not. Anyone selling or buying a boat would want an answer to this simple binary question.

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You prove my point....there is nothing that says you can't put it up for sale without that answer....if it's really even part of the equation based on a cursory "suspicion".

The "on or off" comment goes way beyond that one, tiny part of the whole situation.

Repair or Sell

You have my sympathy. I had the same problem although my engine did not seize. Had a knocking noise when restarted. Told it was a rod bearing. Turned out to be a failed injector dumping fuel. Call Brian Smith at American Diesel. He is the EXPERT. American Diesel marinized most the Ford Lehman's in pleasure boats.
The engine can be repaired without removing it from the boat.
If you repower you don't need more HP. You are already overpowered. Use the calculator in Boat Diesel. You only need 57 HP to cruise close to hull speed. 85 HP is more than adequate.
My experience is based on dealing with a number of engine failures: Detroit 8v92ta, Cat 3208 TI and Ford Lehman. Unless someone has actual experience they really don't know what is involved with the repair. Just saying. Plus I had access to all the engine companies thanks to being the editor of Motorboating and later the publishing director of Yachting.
Good luck

Capt Dadio said:

The boat's name is Sunshine, but here of late we have been calling her Sunset. You have inspired me to think about a name change again.

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Her name is probably coincidental, but my family spent a week on a GB36 from Chitwood Charters over in Sarasota back in the late 80's, and the name was Sun-something. Sunrise, Sunshine, I can't remember... Anyway, I inquired with Capt. Chitwood re: charters about a month ago and he told me his fleet is long gone and he only brokers now. So... by any chance, did Sunshine spend any time at Chitwood Charters?

Sell the “Sizzle”… Don’t open your wallet unless you plan to keep it for yourself.

In my opinion, putting a boat on the market with a major flaw and hoping for the best does have downside risk. Buyers notice (and brokers know) when a listing goes stale. It really puts a stench on the listing.

I think it's Post #60 where a self professed newbie describes a room full of aspiring Loopers, not one would consider a non-perfect boat let alone a seriously flawed one.

Psneeld - while I understand your sentiment that an unlisted boat rarely sells, there have been over 3k views of this thread that clearly states the OP is interested in an offer, perhaps downright motivated. I'd guess the number of inquiries he's gotten is exactly zero.

This boat needs to be diagnosed and repaired. It can't be used in it's current state so it's dead money. The OP is in a difficult situation where he is stuck without a chair when the music stopped.

Peter

I think things go stale on the market because they are priced wrong.

Subtracting the cost of an engine and labor to install it is usually way less than the total cost to install it.

Me personally, I think terms like "go stale on the market" or "cash buyer" or all the other sales jargon are terms used to explain why something sells or not by industry salespeople, repeated by the masses.

Plenty of all kinds of things in all kinds of disrepair sell because someone else wants them.... all you have to do is make it happen. It's pretty rare to sell something without letting people know it is for sale.

I will say one thing...a cherry boat despite engine problems at the right prices sells pretty fast in my experience, but if it is run of the mill and there are plenty of comparables with solid power plants then no....it may not sell till its at a very low price, usually where sellers don't see the light.

As to the diagnosis and eventual repair..... I don't disagree.. The OP shouldn't just sit around and wait for a miracle. But that doesn't mean that he shouldn't let people know they can't jump in the process at the right price. I always see that as having 2 options, not just one going for you.

I think a potential buyer will start with the market value if operational, and then subtract an amount to cover the worst case scenario, so in all but the worst case, the seller will sacrifice more for the unknown problem than it would cost to fix it and bring the boat up to market value

In this particular case, it sounds as if the OP has a boat they are very happy with and are very familiar with. It is hard to quantify the value of this, but there is definite financial value in those things.

If the OP wants to continue boating I think it makes the most sense to do it with this boat. If he is leaving boating I would still suggest fixing it, but that decision is not as clear as if he wants to keep boating. Financially I think it is, but sometimes you just want out of a situation and are willing to pay for that expediency.

I sort of agree with psneeld (partially anyway). Priced right, the boat will sell in any condition. But what does 'priced right' mean? Means finding a buyer who is mechanically savvy (who will call a hefty risk-premium); or one who is naive, underfunded, and desparate (who will likely be saved by denial of insurance). And then making them a deal too good to pass-up.

But extreme fire-sale was not the OPs question. He wanted to know options here. By far, best option is to get a proper diagnosis ASAP. From there, make a decision. There's only one thing more risky than a boat that won't run, and that's one that won't run without explanation.

Peter

JRO said:

Sell the “Sizzle”… Don’t open your wallet unless you plan to keep it for yourself.

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It’s a 1973 36’ little wood boat, bought on the cheap, with problems just a few years ago… It is a salvage value boat running or not. It’s a cash or owner financed loan.
The buyer, running or not, is not going to be “Diamond Jim”. He’s someone looking for a fixer-upper retirement hobby who can’t pony up for front row seats.
The true value in this Grand Banks is it’s design pedigree and that is only valid in barstool banter. This is a bulletin board, word-of-mouth sale. After you honestly list “everything” it takes to get it shipshape and the realistic costs for such it will be easy to know what your best decision is. The boat has more “Sizzle” today not running because you can deduct all the repair costs from what you paid originally just a few years ago. I hope whichever way you go works out great for you.

JRO said:

It’s a 1973 36’ little wood boat, bought on the cheap, with problems just a few years ago… .

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If you're referring to the OP's boat, it's a 1979 GB Classic (see Post #11), fiberglass. Sounds like it's in otherwise decent condition.

Peter

I don't think it matters much what you do. But given current economic conditions, I would get that boat on the market as fast as possible before the market is flooded with used boats , forcing your to lower your price to match market conditions.

https://www.passagemaker.com/technical/the-accidental-refit

After struggling to find the right boat over the past two years, I would say you should not sell your current GB unless you don't intend to continue boating. The link above is for an article that was in Passagemaker 2-3 years ago, about someone who bought a 36' GB of very similar vintage to yours, and really brings home how even the best older boat, despite surveys, are going to need a lot of work, often unexpected, and nearly always expensive.
Another TF member said something a while back that really stuck with me; I am sorry I can't remember who, so I could give him credit, but replying to a post about looking at a boat that didn't seem to have any issues, he said "everything on your boat is broken, you just haven't found it yet."
If you like your current GB, you should keep it, IMO. There is probably nothing out there that is better, or that will cost you less. Good luck either way.

Not sure if you have twins but my plan, if I ever lost one of the Fords, was to replace it with an electrical motor. The thinking was that it would create the "perfect cruiser". Basically, if you are just going for short distances you run on the electric engine off the solar filled batteries. If you need to go long distances you run off the diesel once the batteries run out. Knock on wood I have not had to implement this plan but that is still the plan.

Hyperion said:

Not sure if you have twins but my plan, if I ever lost one of the Fords, was to replace it with an electrical motor. The thinking was that it would create the "perfect cruiser". Basically, if you are just going for short distances you run on the electric engine off the solar filled batteries. If you need to go long distances you run off the diesel once the batteries run out. Knock on wood I have not had to implement this plan but that is still the plan.

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While running on the diesel engine, the electric motor will also be generating as it's prop is turning...



I like your idea.

HTurner said:

While running on the diesel engine, the electric motor will also be generating as it's prop is turning...



I like your idea.

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Yup. Plus, removing the big honking ford allows for a TON of LifePOs in it's place to balance the boat.

Sounds like you are designing, converting and building a hybrid.
What size generator do you have?
Dont make it too complicated, for the next owner.
Document all the changes.
Difficult resale???

Hyperion said:

Yup. Plus, removing the big honking ford allows for a TON of LifePOs in it's place to balance the boat.

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Hmm.


First, boats with twin screws don't run well with only one screw turning. Much more rudder drag.



Second, if you run with the diesel and back-drive the electric motor as a generator, you'll increase the load on the remaining engine a lot. That assumes that the electrical setup will allow it.



Third, a 100HP electric motor will weigh more than 1,000 pounds, so there will not be a lot of available carrying capacity for a lot more batteries.



Last, I'll bet the motor, together with the reduction gear and the necessary custom weldment to connect the two, and the inverter motor controller to drive it off batteries will cost much much more than a new or rebuilt Ford.


Jim

Running a diesel through a transmission to a propellor to push a boat off-center through the water, then slowing down said boat via another propellor on the other side, through a transmission to a generator... is about the least efficient way imaginable to charge batteries.

Circumnavigator said:

Hmm.


First, boats with twin screws don't run well with only one screw turning. Much more rudder drag.



Second, if you run with the diesel and back-drive the electric motor as a generator, you'll increase the load on the remaining engine a lot. That assumes that the electrical setup will allow it.



Third, a 100HP electric motor will weigh more than 1,000 pounds, so there will not be a lot of available carrying capacity for a lot more batteries.



Last, I'll bet the motor, together with the reduction gear and the necessary custom weldment to connect the two, and the inverter motor controller to drive it off batteries will cost much much more than a new or rebuilt Ford.


Jim

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Answers:

First. I'm sure there are some efficiency losses but I ran the Grand Banks for five days, about 6hrs a day, with a single screw going due to a catastrophic raw water pump failure. The boat ran great. Probably due to the full keel. I also monitored the fluid temperature of the free wheeling transmission but since it was a BW Velvet Drive it was fine the whole time.

Second. I would not do that.

Third. A GB 36 can run quite well with 75. The twin Lehman 120s it has were not picked because it needed 240hp but because that was the most reliable and economical engine in the 70s.

Fourth. I agree. This plan was not a money saving scheme.

But I think it would be a resale dollar killing setup.

If you want to really experiment with a hybrid then one suggestion is find a single and swap the marine gear for one with a PTI. Advance gearbox of China makes these. You’d connect your electric motor to the Power Take In. If you’re on electric then you’re likely powers for about 5 knots and might only need a 20 kW motor for a GB36 size of vessel.

Probably lose zero dollars on resale.

If you have not done anything yet, contact Brian at American Diesel. 804-435-3107. Tell him your story. He knows more about Lehman’s than anyone.

Consider looking up John Shanahan Chesapeake Bay Grand Banks Owners Association, Inc. He sponsors this organization, and is a Grand Banks technical expert here on the East Coast. I've seen articles by him discussing installing Yahama engines on GB vessels. His email is jshannahan@gmail.com. He sponsors the above organization.

I had a 1973 Super Bee with a new 383 magnum with mods and a rebuilt transmission with a programming kit Beautiful car and in really nice shape. That thing went like stink. One day it started back firing. Put on a new 4 barrel Holley didn’t fix the problem. Wife at the time had control of the bank account and told me no more dollars for fixes. Bought the car for 2500$ sold it for a 1000$. Turned out be a faulty condenser. 3$ fix.
What I’m saying is pay out some dollars and get someone who is reputable and find out what is truly wrong before throwing in the towel.
Your rad cap will give you 3 degrees increase in water temp before boiling for every pound on the cap. If you have a 50/50 mix of antifreeze it won’t boil until 226 degrees with a zero psi cap. So 220 isn’t really overheating unless you have zero psi cap.
If the thermostat stuck shut it wouldn’t take long for temp to rise. I wonder why the engine wouldn’t turn over for you though.
Would be interesting to find out what your problem was or did you decide to dump the boat?

You can buy and burn a lot of diesel in any attempt to offset the cost o converting to a hybrid or total electric.
What if the projected payback time…… compared to your age.
You may come to the same conclusion as myself; let the next owner worry about alll that.