Bonehead Boatyard Antics

Under the heading of "I have to laugh or I'd cry...." comes today's story of the perils of refits. I've been pretty quiet on my trials and tribulations, but I had to share this one today.

First....a HUGE WARNING: If you want work done in Ensenada MX, DO NOT USE MARIO AT NIZA MARINE. He's a nice guy and means well, but is clueless when it comes to boats; and is the type who is afraid to be transparent. I've assembled some pictures HERE..

The good news is I have been working with Guillermo at LaCosta for the last few months which has been great. It's only been recently that I've been able to laugh at the crazy stuff Niza did. Their cluelessness cost me a lot of money, but I am looking forward as I'm getting closer to moving on.

But I had a good laugh today. I took Weebles out for a sea-trial and the thruster didn't work (amongst other items). Motor turned, but no oooomph.

TToday's installment of Bonehead Boatyard Antics: When Niza installed the props on the new thruster, they forgot the locking pins that actually engage the props. Look at the exploded diagrams below - these pins are almost impossible to forget unless you had zero mechanical aptitude. Of course, the guy who installed the props and had no idea what the spare parts were tossed them in the trash so these pins are long gone so will have to fabricate something.

Anyone have any other bonehead boatyard stuff? I have a zillion of them - when I pull pictures I'll fill-in. I wish I could post the short video of the props free-wheeling. I almost spit-out my beer!

Peter

All I could think of was of Mr. Reilly, the bad contractor in the Fawlty Towers comedy series. LOL

I had my twin propellers installed on the wrong shafts by the yard. I caught it while still on the blocks.

Peter, I know what went wrong. It is not that bad, it will buff out.

What went wrong?
Project Management. I am not the best at tracking all the small details from a distance. Despite a million diagrams and a decent business sense, I let this get away from me.

Click to expand...

What was wrong with the boat BEFORE you took it to that yard?
Did you have to pay the yard to screw up your boat?

Was the 2nd yard able to 'unscrew-up' your boat and make it right?

The re-dos were corrected at the first yard for free?

If it makes you feel better, at least the did not drop it, resulting in a constructive loss as the yard did to my N46.

The Side Power propeller upgrade kit comes with those pins plus all the hardware. I usually break a propeller blade every 2 or 3 years (fish in the tunnel when the motor starts). Buying the 2 propeller kit on sale from Defender.com is cheaper and gives you the spare bits and anodes.

https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|2331321|2331333|2501583&id=1263281

Ted

Another favorite bonehead thing the old team did. This drawer is in the v-berth, just forward of the head compartment. Obviously the head compartment was finished after the drawers were installed as the upright now prevents full opening (or removal) of the drawer.

OldDan1943 said:

What was wrong with the boat BEFORE you took it to that yard?
Did you have to pay the yard to screw up your boat?

Was the 2nd yard able to 'unscrew-up' your boat and make it right?

The re-dos were corrected at the first yard for free?

If it makes you feel better, at least the did not drop it, resulting in a constructive loss as the yard did to my N46.

Click to expand...

It's a long story. Issue with Weebles was she was a 50 year old boat that had been neglected for 10 years - my boating Rip Van Winkle phase. The reason I stopped delivering boats in 2005 was a past colleague made an offer I really couldn't refuse so I went back into corporate America as a management consultant. I relocated to Florida but since I was flying every week, planned to spend more time in SF than I did. Best laid plans.

As far as paying/not-paying to remedy mistakes, well, there comes a point where you have to look at the underlying work and decide if it was a mistake (like the drawer photo I just posted) or ineptitude (not installing the locking pins on thruster prop). From there you have to ask if they guy who screwed it up is the right person to make it right. When the Nizas principal - Mario - stopped being honest with me was when I pulled the plug. At the time, Covid was raging and I simply was unable to get to Mexico.

I lost a few bucks. To Mario's defense, he acknowledged he owes me money. We disagree on the amount and he is unable/unwilling to pay the amount he does acknowledge which is fine. Mostly it cost me time.

At some point, I'll compile a do's/dont's article on large refits, and doing it remote. I still believe it possible, but there are some pointers that in hindsite make sense.

Peter

Peter

The WRONG way to mount a cleat

Attached picture is looking up at underside of caprail where the 10-inch cleats are attached. Each cleat has four fasteners (NFM - HERE) - you see only two. One has a fender washer (blue tape obscures), the other has no backing whatsoever. Where are the other two bolts you ask? Buried in a hole with nothing but caulking securing them. From the deck, they look fastened.

Here's where the experience and integrity thing plays out: The real issue is the fasteners on the style of cleat I purchased is too wide to effectively back underneath. The caprail is a good 7-inches wide but underneath there's barely 3-inches due to heavy construction. The guys installing had a couple options - they could do what they did and 'pretend' to install the fasteners. They could use lag-screws which, given the heft of the caprail, would obviously be better. Or they could say "Pete, these cleats won't work properly. You need a different style cleat that have two heavy thru-bolts instead of four." (I ended up with these Buck & Algonquin cleats - if anyone needs really nice lightly used 10-inch cleats, I'd let my old ones go.....).

What's sort of funny is the new guys originally didn't believe me - no way someone would faux-mount a docking cleat. Only a couple were visible and were a pain in the butt to get to due to interior cabinetry that had been installed after the cleats. But I had them all replaced. All of the cleats were to some extent improperly fastened.

Obviously, mooring cleats are pretty important from a safety perspective. But the guys installing them either didn't know better or figured no one every notice since the fasteners are mostly hidden.

Peter

and yet, you paid them?
Guess you paid them so you could get your boat out of their yard and into another yard.

OldDan1943 said:

and yet, you paid them?
Guess you paid them so you could get your boat out of their yard and into another yard.

Click to expand...

Sometimes you have to.

OldDan1943 said:

and yet, you paid them?
Guess you paid them so you could get your boat out of their yard and into another yard.

Click to expand...

It's more complicated than that. Short answer is you sometimes pay for work you think is done but isn't. Much of the issue is Covid prevented travel, Mexico was locked-down. I had worked with Mario/Niza for a year and things went pretty well. I insisted on pictures of course, but in hindisght, pictures were selective - many close-ups without full situational awareness (that's a yellow flag).

Here is the link to a small handful of diagrams for electrical, plumbing, and raw water. There are some things that are not immediately wrong. For example, on the cleats in an earlier post it wasn't easy to verify. The electrical re-wire was 'done' and it wasn't until I spent some quality time that I realized it was FUBAR with really bush-league mistakes. For example, instead of running power to the thuster from the generator start-battery that is 4-feet away from the thruster, they ran it 25-feet to the house battery bank in the lazarette. In hindsight, I should have known something was wrong when they said they needed another 50-feet of 2/0 cable.

Another example of how you can pay for something too early and not realize it. The boat was indeed painted over a year ago. Great - I paid. Fast forward to when I get there last summer (6-months after I fired them and banned them from the boat, which you can do in Mexico), there are these enormous gouges in the top-deck (see picture). I ask Mario "What the hell is this?" I get this lame response of "The guys dropped a tool." My reaction was not my rosiest moment. It was not the first lie, and they actually got worse from there.

Look, a major refit is a very complicated project. Keeping track of each sub-project will require some level of trust or a legion of inspectors. And even inspectors (surveyors) miss a bunch of stuff.

Peter

Reading all this makes my stomach hurt and it isn't even my boat.
I am so very sorry they screwed your boat. I do hope you were able to negotiate a lower than agreed upon price.

OldDan1943 said:

Reading all this makes my stomach hurt and it isn't even my boat.
I am so very sorry they screwed your boat. I do hope you were able to negotiate a lower than agreed upon price.

Click to expand...

Thanks OldDan - it's all good. As mentioned, I lost a few bucks on the deal, but mostly time. There is a constant annoyance factor too. Mario/Niza simply lost all sorts of oddball items that have been difficult to replace, especially with supply chain issues. For example, I am having new AC units installed. There is a control cable from the compressor to the wall-mount controller. For Webasto, it's a proprietary cable. Missing. Took almost a month to get a replacement and it was $50. Small hydraulic fitting for fuel on new NL generator - missing. Took about 3-weeks to source and around $60 plus express shipping. Antenna adapter for IridiumGo - missing. $100 plus a couple weeks. Stairs from saloon to forward stateroom. Gone - need to be remade. When I fired them, my head and outboard were missing. When I threatened to call the Police, they miraculously re-appeared.

I am not relating this to diss on Niza (though that's poetic byproduct - did I mention there are pictures at www.NizaMarine.net), but mostly as a cautionary tale. I'm not exactly a novice at this stuff and I still encountered more than my fair share of issues. I knew it wouldn't be easy going in. Harder than I thought.

Mostly, I hired the wrong guys. Ironically, my first choice was Guillermo/LaCosta but I could not make contact. Work with LaCosta has been going well - slow, but rock-solid. As it turns out, in the end, it's cheaper to pay an experienced tradesman more $/hr than pay an inexperiened one less.

Peter

When I do side work, I let the customer know I can do fast, cheap and good pick two.

Sorry to hear of your troubles, I do look forward to seeing your refit completed. It seems to be well thought out and a lot of features packed into a nice small vessel. I think those Willards are beautiful boats.

CharlieO. said:

When I do side work, I let the customer know I can do fast, cheap and good pick two.

Sorry to hear of your troubles, I do look forward to seeing your refit completed. It seems to be well thought out and a lot of features packed into a nice small vessel. I think those Willards are beautiful boats.

Click to expand...

While affordability definitely played into my decision to have work done in Mexico vs SF Bay, I did not seek the lowest price within Ensenada. When I started, Niza had great promise. The go-to boatyard for recreational vessels is Baja Naval that has a decent reputation. That's actually where I started but after 3-months and not being able to get any quotes out of them, I sought out alternatives and came across Mario who purportedly was a small team that had been trained at Baja Naval so had decent creds. So I wasn't shy about spending good money (by local standards). And I was pretty open-eyed that I had to be pretty precise in my instructions (ergo the 100's of detailed diagrams). What I didn't count on was Niza would chase-away any craftsman with any talent so only dregs would be working on Weebles.

For experienced, journeyman quality marine labor, going pay is around $80-$100 per day (around $10/hr for full-time work - more for side-work of course). Now, that's their pay so obviously a yard is going to charge more to make money. But if you want/need a quality mechanic or electrician, that's what you're going to pay at a minumum (plus a helper). I'm totally good with that and had no desire to chase the rates downward. That's what I thought I was getting and honestly, thats what I did get for a while. But things change - Niza Marine is two guys - Mario and Luis. Luis is a very talented craftsman. Unfortunately, Luis disappeared at some point and quality became dismal.

Peter

How does a company lose a head, outboard, cable, steps, hyd fittings, antenna adapter,
failure to mount the cleats properly, screw up the new drawer, a rat's nest of wiring and I am other problems that have yet to be discovered.

Did you have to pay for the replacement parts? Did they charge you for the extra yard time too?

Peter, I wasn't implying you were cheaping out, I hope you didn't take it that way. I hate to hear of anyone having negative experiences. your write up on website is very interesting.

I had a conversation with someone I hired to do a concrete slab for me, I paid a the deposit before he started, when he came back for the other half of the money I pointed out all the things he did wrong with the slab and told him he wouldn't be getting anymore money. It really got his attention when I told him "Just because I hired you to do the job doesn't mean I don't know how to do the job." I never heard from him again, and I poured a new slab over the top of his but did it myself the second time.

CharlieO. said:

Peter, I wasn't implying you were cheaping out, I hope you didn't take it that way. I hate to hear of anyone having negative experiences. your write up on website is very interesting.

I had a conversation with someone I hired to do a concrete slab for me, I paid a the deposit before he started, when he came back for the other half of the money I pointed out all the things he did wrong with the slab and told him he wouldn't be getting anymore money. It really got his attention when I told him "Just because I hired you to do the job doesn't mean I don't know how to do the job." I never heard from him again, and I poured a new slab over the top of his but did it myself the second time.

Click to expand...

Not at all - I didn't take it as implying anything. It's a good question/statement; and definitely a good reminder that it's a balance.

This type of experience is a bit embarrasing to be brutally open. While I'm super-pissed at Mario/Niza, it's mostly because of the lies, omissions, and carelessness - I could have worked through everything else. The inability to accept responsibility. But I decided to be fairly open now not throw barbs at Mario/Niza (well, there's a bit of that), but we all see folks on this forum looking at a Project Boat. Well, you no longer have to give obtuse generalities about how it can be a runaway project - just point them to me. Feel free to use me as an example. In hindsight so much is clear.

Peter

I think your lesson to me is that a project boat is not something to hand over to anybody but yourself with professional assistance, where needed, directly observed. Otherwise, it might be too tempting by ANY yard to place tasks realated to the project farther onto the back burner every day, regardless of the quality of the work they may perform.

OldDan1943 said:

How does a company lose a head, outboard, cable, steps, hyd fittings, antenna adapter,
failure to mount the cleats properly, screw up the new drawer, a rat's nest of wiring and I am other problems that have yet to be discovered.

Did you have to pay for the replacement parts? Did they charge you for the extra yard time too?

Click to expand...

Stuff like that is why Mario/Niza and I disagree with what they owe me. But rather than re-hash, let me offer a good lesson learned:

A large refit will generate an enormous amount of stuff, both stuff coming off the boat and stuff going on the boat. You need to create a small stock-room with shelving and inventory. If you don't, you will lose stuff and buy stuff twice. If I were to start from scratch, given the labor rates in Mexico, I would hire someone to do nothing but be a quartermaster.

Let me use an example. Lets say you're looking a new-build boat, maybe a new AT34 (if they're still made). An option is a 16k Btu A/C unit for $7500. So you say to yourself "$7500?!?!?! WTF? Those things are only $1500 at Defender!!!" But think about all the stuff needed to actually install, test, and run the A/C unit - wiring, breakers, connectors, mounting hardware, ducting (which is surprisingly expensive, BTW...), hoses, thru-hulls, sea strainer, valves, hose clamps, etc. So that one item - an A/C - generates a mountain of stuff. I did a pretty good job of sending everything. Where it went south is when it arrived, Mario had no idea how to organize it. He just didn't have experience doing that type of thing I and I didn't have knowledge of how important logistics/organization was. For a large project, it's critical.

Peter

rgano said:

I think your lesson to me is that a project boat is not something to hand over to anybody but yourself with professional assistance, where needed, directly observed. Otherwise, it might be too tempting by ANY yard to place tasks realated to the project farther onto the back burner every day, regardless of the quality of the work they may perform.

Click to expand...

That pretty well sums it up a lot of it. But I think there are some underlying nuances.

Whenever the topic of refits in a foreign land comes up the common refrain is "you gotta be there to assure they're doing the work." The implication is people are lazy and won't do the work unless there's a whip/chair taskmaster. While there is definitely a piece of that - as children I know I goofed-off when a substitute teacher was there, a lot of it is this type of work is so custom and specific that if you're not there to offer direction, the installers simply don't know what to do. I do think a lot of this can be done via pics, diagrams, and real-time WhatsApp texts. Won't be as good as being there, but not bad either. Does assume a trustful relationship.

Interestingly, from a cultural perspective, taking the 'squeeky wheel' approach of yelling and stamping your feet doesn't work well in most places. Mexican culture finds a way to deal with loudmouth bullies. There is a saying "As you give, you shall receive."

Peter

As a DIYer, I have no one to complain to except myself. Recently bought a new bilge pump switch but could not get it to work. It seems a 24 volt switch will not work on 12 volts. Anybody need a 24 volt Ultra bilge pump switch?

I just can't bring myself to contract without a representative of me on site regularly and that is any form of contracting including boats. Now, that clearly adds cost. Just simply have you or someone you trusted been on site at Niza, you would have been aware of all that was going on and pulled the plug are sooner. Would you have saved money in total if you had to pay a representative? Perhaps, but you definitely would have saved time and stress.

The pandemic made it especially tough. We had a new build underway in Italy. Our representative planned on some European traveling but was stuck in a villa he'd leased near the yard. Perhaps it all could have been done remotely, but we had no previous history with that yard. Still when we get yard work done in South Florida, we have someone there daily, even if just for an hour.

You would have avoided all this without the pandemic. Obviously, waiting was an option, but then you'd be far worse off than you are toward actually returning to boating.

I had some shocks over the years with outside sewing contractors. One in Fort Worth supposedly in 400+ operator nice building, arrive and they've moved down the street and have 32 employees total. One I force a contract manager to pull all goods from on a Friday as I'd been tipped off. Monday doors were padlocked. Amazing how quickly things can change even with so called "reputable" companies. One partner leaves. Divorce.

And I don't attribute any of this to Mexico. It's the same everywhere.

BandB said:

I just can't bring myself to contract without a representative of me on site regularly and that is any form of contracting including boats. Now, that clearly adds cost. Just simply have you or someone you trusted been on site at Niza, you would have been aware of all that was going on and pulled the plug are sooner. Would you have saved money in total if you had to pay a representative? Perhaps, but you definitely would have saved time and stress.

The pandemic made it especially tough. We had a new build underway in Italy. Our representative planned on some European traveling but was stuck in a villa he'd leased near the yard. Perhaps it all could have been done remotely, but we had no previous history with that yard. Still when we get yard work done in South Florida, we have someone there daily, even if just for an hour.

You would have avoided all this without the pandemic. Obviously, waiting was an option, but then you'd be far worse off than you are toward actually returning to boating.

I had some shocks over the years with outside sewing contractors. One in Fort Worth supposedly in 400+ operator nice building, arrive and they've moved down the street and have 32 employees total. One I force a contract manager to pull all goods from on a Friday as I'd been tipped off. Monday doors were padlocked. Amazing how quickly things can change even with so called "reputable" companies. One partner leaves. Divorce.

And I don't attribute any of this to Mexico. It's the same everywhere.

Click to expand...

That's actually a really good tip. Never occured to me to have someone there periodically. And you're right - it would not have been much cost. Just someone to stop-in, snap a couple pics, make it known that there is friendly oversight.

Thanks for mentioning none of this is related to Mexico - it's not (except for travel complications due to Mexico).

This will have a happy ending. Just taking time.

Peter

mvweebles said:

That's actually a really good tip. Never occured to me to have someone there periodically. And you're right - it would not have been much cost. Just someone to stop-in, snap a couple pics, make it known that there is friendly oversight.

Thanks for mentioning none of this is related to Mexico - it's not (except for travel complications due to Mexico).

This will have a happy ending. Just taking time.

Peter

Click to expand...

Sometimes all it is, is to let you know so and so quit or an owner has fired a key employee. Sometimes, that someone was there trying to get paid on old bills or a customer dispute taking place. Amazing what a little knowledge sometimes can do.

Sadly others nearby knew what was going on at that yard. You just didn't have the contact. I know three builders whose shut downs were 100% predictable on local knowledge. With two, the story was widespread that the engine manufacturer, generator manufacturer and others were trying to collect and that customers were considering lawsuits. To those at a distance, they could present a great picture, but locals knew the truth. Competitors spread rumors, but those rumors often contain some truth.

I was just reminded by a belated inquiry to a TF classified ad I placed a while back that i am also missing the fluxgate and rudder angle indicator to my old Comnav 1001 autopilot slashing it's resale value. All courtesy of the carelessness of Niza Marine (www.NizaMarine.net)

In addition to props for Guillermo at LaCosta Boatworks in Ensenada, I'll give Orlando Chinas (Chinas Marine Electrical) a big thumbs-up. Extremely well organized and tidy. Very knowledgeable team.

That said, one cautionary note on having electronically controlled kit installed in a non-English speaking country. The manuals are all in English and not always replicated in Spanish. Detailed configuration can be a bit painstaking. At a major yachting center you can find techs who do it all day long and zip through the config process. I'm doing most of the final config and troubleshooting myself which is fine, but I'm pretty slow. Another aspect of a major refit you have to be willing to assume unless you go with very well established vendors.

Turns out there's a lot to configure. Stabilizers need setup. Inverter. MPPTs. Balmar regulator. Various Victron and Blue Sea meters. Simrad system. IridiumGO. Peplink router and antennas. Rosepoint Nemo. AIS. Pretty long list of configuration items.

Peter

Greetings,
Mr. MV. I'm glad are exhibiting such a reasonable response to your complications. Keeps the BP down to acceptable levels.


You DO realize there are pluses to your situation. If you weren't spending all this time and money attempting to rectify and rationalize these issues, you'd most certaily be lollygagging about and wasting your valuable resources (both monetary and emotional) with loose women and cheap alcohol.





Of course that's just idle speculation on my part...

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. MV. I'm glad are exhibiting such a reasonable response to your complications. Keeps the BP down to acceptable levels.


You DO realize there are pluses to your situation. If you weren't spending all this time and money attempting to rectify and rationalize these issues, you'd most certaily be lollygagging about and wasting your valuable resources (both monetary and emotional) with loose women and cheap alcohol.

Of course that's just idle speculation on my part...

Click to expand...

At my age, even loose women have gotten expensive. My current personals ad reads "Wanted: young hottie with trust fund and bad eyesight. Daddy issues a plus."

Needless to say, with exception of fake Russian brides, I haven't gotten much action.

Peter

(Just kidding Cheryll)

Greetings,
You're preaching to the choir, brother...