Champlain Canal planning

Our trip up the Champlain Canal to Lake Champlain is quickly approaching and wanted to put our potential itinerary out there.

Day 1, Planning on leaving Half Moon Bay Marina early to overnight in Kingston hopefully to get a side tie at the museum.

Day 2, Would like to get to maybe Lock 1 past Troy to tie up for the night. I'm not going to count at space at Waterford although that would be a good choice.

Day 3, Go halfway up the canal to tie to another lock wall, maybe Fort Edward area or a little farther.

Day 4, End at Chipman Point Marina, our slip for the summer.

Those familiar with this trip does this sound like realistic planning and reasonable options?

Anything else I may need to take into consideration? I will be adding more fenders and quality boat hooks onboard. Will drop our mast once we get to the canals, we have 24' airdraft with it up. I do have an anchor but no windlass yet so not planning on anchoring but is available to deploy in case of emergency.

I haven't run the numbers on distance, but from what I've looked at in the past that pace sounds definitely do-able. I can't remember what the hours are for the Troy lock, so I'm not sure if running a long day (past 5 PM) is an option to get through there or not.

As far as air draft, if my memory is good you'll make it as far as Waterford before needing to drop the mast (so you can just do it at a night stop). I think you've got 25 feet of clearance up to that point.

Generally we go with ball fenders. 12" ones just below the rub rail, 18" ones just above the water. Works well tying to walls or in locks. Remember, coming into a lock is just docking on a side tie. It looks harder, but it's not.

I've found when going up in the locks we tend to run a line from a midship cleat to a pipe or cable and back to the same cleat whenever possible. We'll often also grab a drop line or something else aft. A few of the NY Canal locks only have drop lines, the Troy lock is pipes and ladders only IIRC. Going down we usually just use the drop lines as it's a much smoother ride so the extra control of a line around a pipe is less necessary (and getting a line around a pipe in a full lock is a pain and would require someone to step off the boat).

I've come to prefer non-extendable boat hooks for locks, as you can push on them hard with no fear of it suddenly sliding collapsed.

As far as air draft, if my memory is good you'll make it as far as Waterford before needing to drop the mast (so you can just do it at a night stop). I think you've got 25 feet of clearance up to that point.

If it were me I'd drop the mast before Troy. I remember hitting the antenna on my old Mainship on one of the first 2 bridges after the Troy lock.
the 3 times I went that route with the Albin I lowered the mast before Troy just in case.

jleonard said:

As far as air draft, if my memory is good you'll make it as far as Waterford before needing to drop the mast (so you can just do it at a night stop). I think you've got 25 feet of clearance up to that point.

If it were me I'd drop the mast before Troy. I remember hitting the antenna on my old Mainship on one of the first 2 bridges after the Troy lock.
the 3 times I went that route with the Albin I lowered the mast before Troy just in case.

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I just checked to confirm. You're good with 25 feet up to the Troy lock. After the Troy lock you've only got 21 feet to Waterford.

I am following this with great interest as I am going to visit my daughter in Burlington third week of June. I am spending the weekend at Shady Harbor then leaving on the 13th. My air draft is 17" everything up.

In addition to route planning, read the attached.

https://www.lakechamplaincommittee.org/fileadmin/files/Publications/English_Boating_Manual.pdf

SoWhat said:

In addition to route planning, read the attached.

https://www.lakechamplaincommittee.org/fileadmin/files/Publications/English_Boating_Manual.pdf

Click to expand...

Interesting read, but discharging grey water is not illegal (pg. 6). We are make sure we are aware of what we put down our drains.

My holding tank doesn't have any overboard connections, so we are all set.

Thank for the info.

Correct, gray water discharge is not illegal despite what is published by some lake organizations.

I agree that ball fenders are preferred as some lock walls have gaps that will swallow a normal fender. We managed ok with regular fenders but balls would be better if you have the choice.

In addition to other things, a couple sets of waterproof work gloves are a definite necessity. The lock walls and lines etc. can be pretty grimy. You may find yourself pushing off the wall with your hands at times or holding onto some slimy lock lines.

When you mention overnighting at a lock wall, I'm not sure that is possible at all locks, depending exactly on what you mean by that. There are a number of town docks/walls along the canal that you can overnight at. Water and electricity are available at some but not all. I assume you already have a cruising guide with these details but if not you should get one. There are also regular marinas in some towns along the canal. We did not anchor once inside the canal. Not sure there are many places with enough room anyway.

If you want to feel safe / prepared to respond to any questions re gray water discharge print & save a copy of this. Many folks have claimed Lk Champlain is restricted AFA gray water discharge but it is a myth with no legal standing.

The requirement to disconnect any black water overboard discharge is real but have never heard of anyone being checked.View attachment Gray Water Research Memo.pdf

CharlieO. said:

Our trip up the Champlain Canal to Lake Champlain is quickly approaching and wanted to put our potential itinerary out there.

Day 1, Planning on leaving Half Moon Bay Marina early to overnight in Kingston hopefully to get a side tie at the museum.

Day 2, Would like to get to maybe Lock 1 past Troy to tie up for the night. I'm not going to count at space at Waterford although that would be a good choice.

Day 3, Go halfway up the canal to tie to another lock wall, maybe Fort Edward area or a little farther.

Day 4, End at Chipman Point Marina, our slip for the summer.

Those familiar with this trip does this sound like realistic planning and reasonable options?

Anything else I may need to take into consideration? I will be adding more fenders and quality boat hooks onboard. Will drop our mast once we get to the canals, we have 24' airdraft with it up. I do have an anchor but no windlass yet so not planning on anchoring but is available to deploy in case of emergency.

Click to expand...

Your plan looks doable.

Last year between up and back, I overnighted at Mechanicsville (electric, water and pumpout), Fort Edwards (electric and water), and Whitehall (electric and water). All were reasonable, and there are other spots. A word of caution: Mechanicsville and Fort Edwards have navigation limitations. It's not difficult to navigate, but you need to understand how to get to the docks, before you get there. Mechanicsville isn't difficult, but don't get to far above or below the public dock (shoal water). Fort Edwards has a channel taking you to the public dock. Honor the floating navigation aids to avoid shoal water.

Ted

Thanks Ted, I'm not planning on Fort Edward on the side channel, but I believe there is another free dock just upriver before the lock. I was thinking the staying at lock 5 just above Schuylerville that looks like a good place to stretch our legs for the night. I did see the Mechhanicville as I good choice also, I saw other notes about the shallow water upstream there.

We stopped at Schuylerville once and it wasn't bad except for some of the hungriest mosquitos I can remember and they are probably salivating while reading this thread.

Bring the "Off" and cintronella candles!

CharlieO. said:

Thanks Ted, I'm not planning on Fort Edward on the side channel, but I believe there is another free dock just upriver before the lock. I was thinking the staying at lock 5 just above Schuylerville that looks like a good place to stretch our legs for the night. I did see the Mechhanicville as I good choice also, I saw other notes about the shallow water upstream there.

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The other free dock is after the lock on the west side ( see it on Google maps satellite image). IMO, it looked pretty marginal, low to the water, small cleats, and no electric or water. My fenders would have ridden over the dock. It's probably designed for smaller boats. The other one up the channel is exponentially better.

If you stay above lock 5, there's a nice little dock above the lock that my friends use.



Ted

If stopping in Schuyerville, you might also consider this place:

https://www.theyachtbasin.com/

That was our only overnight stop on the canal and we thought it was a great place. Friendly people and reasonable rates and also a good onsite restaurant and dockside bar/grill. Someone on TF mentioned that it recently changed hands and has declined, but the website and reviews still look positive. Hard to believe that it would not be a good place if you favor a marina.

backinblue said:

If stopping in Schuyerville, you might also consider this place:

https://www.theyachtbasin.com/

That was our only overnight stop on the canal and we thought it was a great place. Friendly people and reasonable rates and also a good onsite restaurant and dockside bar/grill. Someone on TF mentioned that it recently changed hands and has declined, but the website and reviews still look positive. Hard to believe that it would not be a good place if you favor a marina.

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I thought early on about getting a seasonal slip there due to the proximity to home and other off boat activities - Saratoga Race Track, Six Flags, Lake George but opted to go to the lake. Also my insurance wanted to have at least one boat registered and docked for primary use in Vermont where we live.

I'm really trying to stay away from docking in close quarters with other boats right now until we get more time in and learn the handling characteristics of the boat.

CharlieO. said:

I thought early on about getting a seasonal slip there due to the proximity to home and other off boat activities - Saratoga Race Track, Six Flags, Lake George but opted to go to the lake. Also my insurance wanted to have at least one boat registered and docked for primary use in Vermont where we live.

I'm really trying to stay away from docking in close quarters with other boats right now until we get more time in and learn the handling characteristics of the boat.

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Sounds good Charlie, whatever works for you. We did not find this marina very crowded and there was no wind or current to deal with because it is in a somewhat secluded basin off of the canal. We were given a side tie to their main dock which seemed common for transients, but not certain. You could always call them. My TF avitar pic was actually taken there.

Thanks for the insight, I am a fan of the Mexican restaurant just up the street too. Once we get up that far I'm sure we will have a better feel for everything. Marina stops would be handy as our boat isn't really equipped for comfortable off the dock overnights yet ie: refrigeration is 120v, hot water 120v, fresh water pump not on 12v. No boat generator, just a small yamaha inverter gen. So we will basically be camping on the way up. We do have a propane cooktop and 12v lights.

Regardless we are excited to get up to the lake, that will be a major item off the checklist and will give us a big sense of accomplishment.

SoWhat said:

In addition to route planning, read the attached.

https://www.lakechamplaincommittee.org/fileadmin/files/Publications/English_Boating_Manual.pdf

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That manual is total bull. Lake Champlain is a Federal waterway. The rules are no different than on any other Federal waterway. You DO NOT need to remove any hoses. Just wire tie the valve shut.

catalinajack said:

That manual is total bull. Lake Champlain is a Federal waterway. The rules are no different than on any other Federal waterway. You DO NOT need to remove any hoses. Just wire tie the valve shut.

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NY Regulation is clear. Maybe you can be a test case. Just claim sovereign citizenship. I assume you ignore all state safety boating regulations on federal waters as well.


§ 33-d. Sanitary facilities aboard crafts on Lake Champlain. It shall
be unlawful for any owner or operator of any craft upon Lake Champlain,
its tributaries or outlets, to operate any craft equipped with a marine
toilet which in any manner discharges sewage into the waters of said
lake, its tributaries or outlets. All marine toilets on any such craft
shall also incorporate or be equipped with a holding tank which can be
carried or pumped ashore for disposal according to the regulations of
local boards of health or county or state health agencies. Any holding
tank designed so as to provide for an optional means of discharge to the
waters on which the craft is operating shall have the discharge openings
sealed shut and any discharge lines, pipes or hoses shall be removed or
disconnected and stored while operating on the waters of said lake, its
tributaries or outlets. Failure to comply with the provisions of this
section shall be a violation punishable by a fine not to exceed two
hundred fifty dollars or by imprisonment of not more than fifteen days
or by both such fine and imprisonment.

SoWhat said:

NY Regulation is clear. Maybe you can be a test case. Just claim sovereign citizenship.


§ 33-d. Sanitary facilities aboard crafts on Lake Champlain. It shall
be unlawful for any owner or operator of any craft upon Lake Champlain,
its tributaries or outlets, to operate any craft equipped with a marine
toilet which in any manner discharges sewage into the waters of said
lake, its tributaries or outlets. All marine toilets on any such craft
shall also incorporate or be equipped with a holding tank which can be
carried or pumped ashore for disposal according to the regulations of
local boards of health or county or state health agencies. Any holding
tank designed so as to provide for an optional means of discharge to the
waters on which the craft is operating shall have the discharge openings
sealed shut and any discharge lines, pipes or hoses shall be removed or
disconnected and stored while operating on the waters of said lake, its
tributaries or outlets. Failure to comply with the provisions of this
section shall be a violation punishable by a fine not to exceed two
hundred fifty dollars or by imprisonment of not more than fifteen days
or by both such fine and imprisonment.

Click to expand...

Just stay on the Vermont side then.

CharlieO. said:

Just stay on the Vermont side then.

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Vermont Regulation: 23 V.S.A. § 3306

(e) Every marine toilet on board any vessel operated on the waters of the State shall also incorporate or be equipped with a holding tank. Any holding tank or marine toilet designed so as to provide for an optional means of discharge to the waters on which the vessel is operating shall have the discharge openings sealed shut and any discharge lines, pipes, or hoses shall be disconnected and stored while the vessel is in the waters of this State.

I have no overboard discharge for my boats holding tank. But is someone really going to climb into an engine room to trace out the boats plumbing, take off the panels behind and under the heads?

This topic has been covered before in different threads here.

The biggest issue I have is the various groups claiming grey water discharge is illegal in Lake Champlain but when asked for the specific law they go silent.

I know Lake George NY requires an inspection of your vessel before being issued a Lake George boating sticker. They have a no greywater discharge law/policy.

SoWhat said:

NY Regulation is clear. Maybe you can be a test case. Just claim sovereign citizenship. I assume you ignore all state safety boating regulations on federal waters as well.


§ 33-d. Sanitary facilities aboard crafts on Lake Champlain. It shall
be unlawful for any owner or operator of any craft upon Lake Champlain,
its tributaries or outlets, to operate any craft equipped with a marine
toilet which in any manner discharges sewage into the waters of said
lake, its tributaries or outlets. All marine toilets on any such craft
shall also incorporate or be equipped with a holding tank which can be
carried or pumped ashore for disposal according to the regulations of
local boards of health or county or state health agencies. Any holding
tank designed so as to provide for an optional means of discharge to the
waters on which the craft is operating shall have the discharge openings
sealed shut and any discharge lines, pipes or hoses shall be removed or
disconnected and stored while operating on the waters of said lake, its
tributaries or outlets. Failure to comply with the provisions of this
section shall be a violation punishable by a fine not to exceed two
hundred fifty dollars or by imprisonment of not more than fifteen days
or by both such fine and imprisonment.

Click to expand...

I don't remember the basis for it off hand, but I'm pretty sure it's been indicated that the regulation mentioned would likely hold up for a boat that is resident on the lake. But would likely not hold up for a boat that is visiting from elsewhere being that Lake Champlain qualifies as a federally navigable waterway.

Personally, the idea of having to disconnect sewage hoses just to go there is unreasonable and I absolutely wouldn't do it. Seacock tied shut and power to the discharge pump disconnected is technically beyond what's required in an NDZ.

rslifkin said:

I don't remember the basis for it off hand, but I'm pretty sure it's been indicated that the regulation mentioned would likely hold up for a boat that is resident on the lake. But would likely not hold up for a boat that is visiting from elsewhere being that Lake Champlain qualifies as a federally navigable waterway.



Personally, the idea of having to disconnect sewage hoses just to go there is unreasonable and I absolutely wouldn't do it. Seacock tied shut and power to the discharge pump disconnected is technically beyond what's required in an NDZ.

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So it seems your interpretation of a state regulation is it only applies to residents or resident boats. I have never seen that incorporated in any state regulation but I wish anyone claiming that all the luck. I'd also request they report back on how it went.
Authorities don't make it a habit of harassing boaters just to make a point it usually happens when authorities get involved and start to check all the boxes to find any/ all additional violations when an accident occurs or other event that prompts their involvement.

Bacchus said:

So it seems your interpretation of a state regulation is it only applies to residents or resident boats. I have never seen that incorporated in any state regulation but I wish anyone claiming that all the luck. I'd also request they report back on how it went.
Authorities don't make it a habit of harassing boaters just to make a point it usually happens when authorities get involved and start to check all the boxes to find any/ all additional violations when an accident occurs or other event that prompts their involvement.

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Typically that wouldn't be the case, but my understanding is that for certain things like NDZs, a state isn't allowed to further tighten the rules beyond what's required for any federally navigable waterway.

rslifkin said:

Typically that wouldn't be the case, but my understanding is that for certain things like NDZs, a state isn't allowed to further tighten the rules beyond what's required for any federally navigable waterway.

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States can and do regulate all waterways within the state. Try exceeding a posted speed limit or drive while intoxicated. Leave the hose connected at your own risk. Challenge the prosecution based upon your theory. $30,000-$50,000 in attorneys fees later you can appeal.

This has been debated ad nauseum on TF. My understanding after lots of debate and some reserach is as follows. Gray water discharege is not an issue. Per the state law, holding tank discharge hose needs to be removed, not just the seacock secured. This is allowable under the law because States can impose restrictions in addition to federal regs as long as they don't contradict them. Whether on the NY or VT side, I think it's the same and in the southernmost part of the lake it's very narrow, so I wouldn't play that game even if you could.

That being said, here's my personal experience purchasing a boat on Lake Champlain. The boat was on the lake for 8 years since new and still had all overboard capacity in place. Evertything connected and nothing on the seacock secured other than the built in slide lock that was part of the original seacock. That tells me that it was never an issue over 8 seasons for the original owner. Also, the local surveyor told me it shouldn't be a problem and that if I was stopped during my delivery trip to simply tell them I was taking the boat off the lake to my home port. My impression is that this is not strictly enforced and if I kept a boat on the lake, I would probaly secure the seacock handle and not worry about it unless I was forced to.

rslifkin said:

Typically that wouldn't be the case, but my understanding is that for certain things like NDZs, a state isn't allowed to further tighten the rules beyond what's required for any federally navigable waterway.

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I'm no legal beagle but my understanding is states can not impose regulations that are contrary to federal reqmts. I believe that they are permitted to impose additional regulations so long as they are consistent with federal regs.
Interior lakes and canals that are navigable waterways are NDZs. States clarifying their regulations re how to satisfy the NDZ is fair game AFAIK.

If you look at the NYS regs they are radically different for Lake George... Lk Champlain closest neighbor, because of the need to conform to fed regs on Lk Champlain.

CharlieO. said:

Thanks for the insight, I am a fan of the Mexican restaurant just up the street too. Once we get up that far I'm sure we will have a better feel for everything. Marina stops would be handy as our boat isn't really equipped for comfortable off the dock overnights yet ie: refrigeration is 120v, hot water 120v, fresh water pump not on 12v. No boat generator, just a small yamaha inverter gen. So we will basically be camping on the way up. We do have a propane cooktop and 12v lights.

Regardless we are excited to get up to the lake, that will be a major item off the checklist and will give us a big sense of accomplishment.

Click to expand...

Given that your boat is not really equipped for overnights away from 120V, marinas would be my first choice over town docks. Not all of them have power and you may not get a spot at the ones that do. A couple nights at $2/ft is nothing in the scheme of things and you will have a better experience and perhaps some nice dinners out too. Make it a vacation, not just a trip on a budget. Call in advance if you are worried about docking and perhaps you can secure a side tie against their peir as I did.

My experience from cruising lake Champlain for 2 months last summer is that it's like boating under the influence. The law is enforced when you screw up.

My impression is that during the summer, there are probably thousands of boats on lake Champlain. They're not going to check until you screw up and they're probably ok with a secured seacock on the discharge until you act like an a$$hole. Tourism is a big part of their economy, enforcement seemed to be focused on the trouble makers, not the polite tourists.

Ted