To Repair or Sell Grand Banks 36 Classic

Fellow Boaters I have need of your help.
My Lehman 135 overheated (loose fan belt) and shut down. We had to be towed in.

The engine would not restart. Flywheel will not turn. Slight smell when the valve cover was removed. No water in oil. Expansion tank holds coolant.

Bottom line, getting an engine out of a Grand Banks is not easy. I have done it twice. But the engine should come out to be repaired. (My mechanic) He suspects broken shaft.

Cummins has an engine, 6BT Retro I believe, that has been known to replace the hard-to-find Lehman engine in decent shape. Cost around $10,000. I figure the replacement costs including on-the-hard would be between $15,000-$20,000.

So here is my dilemma:
Wife wants to sell. Tired of engine swapping. Does not want to spend another dime, sell as is.

I see on the boards, Grand Banks are a desired boat, running.
Not sure about not running.
Should I repair, go through the trip to the yard, spend the money and then sell
\or
Sell as is and take the hit?
Your thoughts?

Any buyer will want a major price reduction to replace the engine. My guess is a boat with a new engine will make you $$ rather than cost you $$.

You don't list the age of the boat, condition, etc. If a FL 135, and original engine,probably boat was built in the '80's or '90's. Definitely worth repairing, BUT that's not what you asked. You asked if YOU should repair it or sell as is. . . . I had a GB36 who's original FL 120 had been replaced with a Cummins 6BTA, 210hp engine. GREAT engine, but IMHO an overkill for a 36GB. I would consider a Beta marine engine for repower. Only YOU can decide whether you want to repair or sell as is.

Arguments for selling as is: Quicker sale (probably), and will allow you to move up/over to another boat that more suits your cruising style, and allow you to do it NOW, not waiting to repair your boat, then sell (and you'll never get your money for the repower out of it), then buy another boat.
Biggest argument against selling now as is, low sale price realized. However, if the boat otherwise meets your cruising needs, and you anticipate keeping for some time, repowering would be the route I would go.

Just food for thought!

Greetings,
Mr. CD. Welcome aboard. Short answer to your dilemma: Sell as is and take the hit. Be sure your spouse realizes that you may take a BIG hit but happy wife happy etc... Life's too short to be mucking around a third time, IMHO.



BEFORE you put her on the market, make SURE you know exactly what the problem is. It may not be as serious as your mechanic thinks. So, I say again: Make sure you know what you've got!

As RT said, you really can't make an informed decision until you know what's wrong with the current engine. It might be less serious and costly than you think to get it back in operation.

On the repower with Cummins, I have done this with my current boat, twins. I got a good result and I'm glad I did it, but the boat is a long-term hold and I'm not expecting much of a return when I sell it. Realize that even if you are diligent in trying to estimate what this will cost you, I guarantee it will be MUCH more than you think, even with you doing some of the work like I did. Based on your wife's hesitantance to repower, it may not be good for marital bliss based on the money involved.

Capt Dadio said:

Fellow Boaters I have need of your help.
My Lehman 135 overheated (loose fan belt) and shut down. We had to be towed in.

The engine would not restart. Flywheel will not turn. Slight smell when the valve cover was removed. No water in oil. Expansion tank holds coolant.

Bottom line, getting an engine out of a Grand Banks is not easy. I have done it twice. But the engine should come out to be repaired. (My mechanic) He suspects broken shaft.

Cummins has an engine, 6BT Retro I believe, that has been known to replace the hard-to-find Lehman engine in decent shape. Cost around $10,000. I figure the replacement costs including on-the-hard would be between $15,000-$20,000.

So here is my dilemma:
Wife wants to sell. Tired of engine swapping. Does not want to spend another dime, sell as is.

I see on the boards, Grand Banks are a desired boat, running.
Not sure about not running.
Should I repair, go through the trip to the yard, spend the money and then sell
\or
Sell as is and take the hit?
Your thoughts?

Click to expand...

So it overheated and you continued to run it until it shut down? Oh no.

Now, you've made your first post on two forums, perhaps more, but you haven't yet said the year or size of the boat. Wood or Fiberglass? What condition otherwise. Please if you want opinions, share the information that might get you an informed opinion.

Also,"your mechanic?" Are they a Lehman expert, at a yard that is known for it's knowledge? I think you'll need to have someone with knowledge look before deciding.

Sounds a bit to me like you want out. However, we'll try to answer but you must provide more information.

I think you would have to analyze past boat sales to determine value of boat with running engine. Then get an actual quote for 6BT replacement. Discount the replacement from the value and advertise it. You will receive offers. You don't have to accept them.

I'm guessing you will receive a lot of low ball offers due to the seized engine. I'm not sure why mechanic thinks crank is bad. Overheating usually burns valves or piston rings, warps head. Probably repairable.

Once you get some offers you and your wife can make a joint decision about best course of action.

Keep in mind that whatever you think it will cost to repower it will cost 50 to 100% more. Particularly now with parts costs zooming. Labor may not be bad if you do the work yourself. But going from a Lehman to a Cummins almost everything will not fit, motor mounts, transmission, exhaust and on and on. If you do it make sure you eyes are wide open. Good luck with whatever way you go.

Yeah, I'd remove the injectors and start with a squirt of penetrating oil in each cylinder and do the rocky thing for a few days before doing anything else.

Sounds like you're done with your GB36, or your wife is (same difference). There's nothing worse in my mind than a boat project on a boat one's lost interest in. Sell & let the buyer determine what to do next - the market's as good as it'll ever be. I'd actually be excited to re-power a boat with my exact engine preference if the price accurately reflected the projected cost.

But yeah make sure the engine's toast first!

Boaters, Thank you for your input. I have been a quiet follower of the two forums I have posted in for years.

The boat is a 1979 36 Classic. We had the bottom redone 2 years ago, blisters, paint and all. 6 solar cells for power on the hook. 6 new batteries, 4 for house and 2 for start. Nice diesel generator. 2 A/C units. New "Natures Head" marine toilet, new instruments, fly bridge has hard top, all new interior, bedding, stove, etc.
Maybe if running: $75,000.

My thought was to start with the price, minus estimated costs for repair, but that is hopium on my part. Without sea trial or running engine, might as well give the boat away.
The mechanic is a marine mechanic, and the question then arises, how far do you dig into the engine before you call it dead?

Working lubricant into the cylinder heads sounds like a good course of action.

No, the engine did not run for long, maybe 2 minutes, before we shut her down. I misspoke by saying the engine died. There was steam coming from the engine room, temp got to about 220. I have mechanical and electrical gauges as well as a laser heat gun to monitor the engine heat. Ran fine at 1750rpm. When we opened it up to 1850rpm, all hell broke loose. I shut her down. IN hind site, probably should have just idled down. But that is history.
There is my story.
Love the boat. DO NOT want to go through taking it all apart on the hard.

Again, thank you for all your input. This is a real pickle I wish was not in my jar.

One last piece of info on my GB 36. The Lehman was a rebuilt RTO. She only has 35 hours on her. Had the engine installed one year ago.

Not sure what all hell breaking loose means. If loud banging and crunching noises could be something drastic. Best to narrow it down. Remove rocker arm cover. Pull injectors, oil cylinders, then bar the engine back and forth via nut on flywheel. If you can get engine turning you can buy an inexpensive borescope at Amazon and check all cylinders. drain the oil through a cloth and see if there any metal shavings. Should be able to put borescope through drain hole to check mains and crank. You need to know if engine is repairable or not. Your mechanic gave you an opinion without a thorough investigation.

Was there a warranty on your rebuilt engine?

Wow, 35 hours. Not good at all. Check the impeller while you're down there too.

This should not have happened.

Capt Dadio said:

Boaters, Thank you for your input. I have been a quiet follower of the two forums I have posted in for years.

The boat is a 1979 36 Classic. We had the bottom redone 2 years ago, blisters, paint and all. 6 solar cells for power on the hook. 6 new batteries, 4 for house and 2 for start. Nice diesel generator. 2 A/C units. New "Natures Head" marine toilet, new instruments, fly bridge has hard top, all new interior, bedding, stove, etc.
Maybe if running: $75,000.

My thought was to start with the price, minus estimated costs for repair, but that is hopium on my part. Without sea trial or running engine, might as well give the boat away.
The mechanic is a marine mechanic, and the question then arises, how far do you dig into the engine before you call it dead?

Working lubricant into the cylinder heads sounds like a good course of action.

No, the engine did not run for long, maybe 2 minutes, before we shut her down. I misspoke by saying the engine died. There was steam coming from the engine room, temp got to about 220. I have mechanical and electrical gauges as well as a laser heat gun to monitor the engine heat. Ran fine at 1750rpm. When we opened it up to 1850rpm, all hell broke loose. I shut her down. IN hind site, probably should have just idled down. But that is history.
There is my story.
Love the boat. DO NOT want to go through taking it all apart on the hard.

Again, thank you for all your input. This is a real pickle I wish was not in my jar.

Click to expand...

Who rebuilt it? No warranty? Was it really rebuilt of just a few things done?

Do not just use a "marine mechanic." Use a yard that is fully capable of all the work. Capt Ralph who you spoke to on the other forum can advise you in your area. Lots of people call themselves marine mechanics.

Now, you really have no choice. A purchaser is going to be hard to find as is and is going to not only deduct the worst case scenario but deduct more for the questions and inconvenience. Let's assume for a moment it's full value is $70,000 less brokers fees of $7,000. No broker will want to deal with it. If your estimated worst case is $30,000 to replace then the best offer you're likely to get is about $30,000. Get the work done by a reputable yard and you may find it's only $10,000 or may be $30,000 but then you have new engine with warranty and get the $70,000, so come out after brokers commission with a net of $33,000-53,000. That's versus no more than $25,000-30,000 as is. Right now the only people who would buy it are what we call in other industries, "undertakers." Salvage buyers. Call a salvage company and ask for an offer and you'll get the bad news. You really have no choice but to fix it and fix it right.

My guess would be massive overheat causes head to distort & coolant in cylinders. Now it's hydrolocked.


Pull injectors and bar the engine over by hand. You may not be looking at anything more than a new head gasket.

All hell broke loose - steam, shouting to drop anchor, idling down, realizing the shipping channel on the St John's now had a disabled boat at the Dames Point Bridge.

No banging, no noise, no indicator, no nothing. Just went from 180 degree to a little over 220 in about 2 minutes.

I was running between the two helms checking the new gauges and comparing them to the laser gun and mechanical heat gauge.

I was still "breaking" the engine in, slow is better.

We have had the boat over a year from the install. That would be another can of worms to open - trying to get the mechanic to own this failure. Yes, it could be shoddy workmanship, but that is the old water under the bridge.
Thank everyone of you for your help. Just "talking out loud" with other boaters v my wife only, has helped me see the bigger picture of what might be ahead.

To be frank, the "broken crankshaft" comment from the mechanic would be a red flag to me. That just makes no sense based on typical failures, the consequences of over heating, or any of your symptoms. It's indicative of someone who either has no clue what they are talking about, or who is a giant BSer. Neither of those suggest someone you want to listen to, let alone hire.


I think the chances are good that there is nothing horribly wrong with your engine. But if there is coolant in the cylinders and it's hydrolocked, you need to get that out of there right away or you will have a badly damage engine. Pulling the injectors (or glow plugs if it has them) and baring over the engine I think it a priority. That will confirm if it turns or if it's really seized up in some catastrophic way. And it will get out any water or coolant that's in the wrong place and that might do real damage.

I'm not convinced this engine is seized....

Neither am I.

I am convinced the OP needs a new mechanic or "roll up your sleeves and DIY"

Delta Riverat said:

Neither am I.

I am convinced the OP needs a new mechanic or "roll up your sleeves and DIY"

Click to expand...

A real analysis from a real mechanic.

Call Brian at American Diesel. He can probably give you some good advice on how to proceed. 804-435-3107

Capt Dadio said:

All hell broke loose - steam, shouting to drop anchor, idling down, realizing the shipping channel on the St John's now had a disabled boat at the Dames Point Bridge.
No banging, no noise, no indicator, no nothing. Just went from 180 degree to a little over 220 in about 2 minutes.
I was running between the two helms checking the new gauges and comparing them to the laser gun and mechanical heat gauge.

Click to expand...

Aahhhhh! classic fire drill. Sounds familiar. I lost a fan belt, didn't hear the alarm noise over twin engines, noticed temp gauge at 250, shut the port engine down in the middle of busy channel and called sea tow to put me back in slip.

Replaced belt, replaced coolant, running like a watch since. I was very lucky.

I would want clarity re. damage before any decisions. If no noise than safe to say it is unlikely that mains, crank, rods, etc were trashed. Galled piston rings could make the engine hard to turn over. Borescope will be helpful. It might be a repair ($5000) and not a complete rebuild.($15000)

Capt D, sorry that you are stuck with an engine that won't start. Something is getting lost in terms of what you describe and what the mechanic said. If the engine was running and you controlled the shut down engine I don't see how the crank is now broke. When you pushed the button to shut it down it was still running correct and did it rattle to a stop normally or did it may new noises? I've never heard of a crank just "breaking" without catastrophic noise when it breaks in junction with rods and pistons that typically break together. So in my mind there is a big gap to bridge from a running engine to a broken crank. Does the mechanic think the crank is broken in half or something different like rods melted to the crank? I am not sure if you could melt the rods at a temp of 220.

Questions for the group, I don't know this engine very well. If a temp of 220 is accurate is 220 actually hot enough to do damage. I could see a warped head if we're talking about an aluminum head on a 1980s chevy but the head on these engines seem pretty massive to me. Maybe I am getting the mass of this engine confused with a fragile weak spot of the engine. Second, wouldn't it be more likely to break a rod before breaking the crank? Or are the rods and pistons on these things so strong they will break the crank first before they break?

Cylinder 6 on the FL120’s is typically where the overheating problems take place. Pulling the injectors is a bit of a PITA but is a place to start then try to bar the motor over. If no joy the pull the head for a visual of the cylinders. Good luck.

RedRascal said:

If a temp of 220 is accurate is 220 actually hot enough to do damage.

Click to expand...

My port Lehman P90 hit 250 on an accurate gauge before I noticed it. Broke fan belt. No damage to engine. Nerves were shot. One anecdote is not conclusive. I have blown numerous automotive radiator hoses over the years, never damaged any engines or components. Swallowed a valve once while drag racing. Oil pressure sender gave out on another engine that drained all the oil. No warning due to broken sender until the engine became sluggish and started to overheat. By the time I got off interstate it was knocking like a jackhammer.

Ford Lehman's are simple, classic overbuilt cast iron engines. Should run forever but as Delta Riverat pointed out, impellers can disintegrate quickly. If they do engine will obviously overheat. Possible that rings might gall a cylinder. OP should pull off cover to raw water pump and check.

A few thoughts:

There may be tax implications that will allow you to write off the loss if you sell as is, but you may not be able to write off the $30k to repair.

There may be a 3rd option other than fix or sell. You could install a gas engine for much less and then sell it. It would not command the same price as a new diesel install, but it would save your repair costs, and could be sold as a turnkey boat and not a project.

Is your mechanic the same person who installed this engine 35 hours ago ?

It seems like there is a good chance that you would not need a full rebuild if the engine is that new and was shut down intentionally without the clunking noises you'd expect from a shaft failure. If a potential buyer makes an offer he will assume the worst and factor in the cost and time involved in a full rebuild. If the actual problem is anything less than a full rebuild, financially it would make sense for you to pay for the repair rather than the buyer budgetting for the full $30k bill.

I'm just guessing on these numbers but bear with me for a minute. A few days ago you had a $75k boat that had a new engine and you liked it. If you sell "as is" you might get $25k, and will then have to pony up another $50 to get back to where you were before "all hell broke loose". But then there will also be added expense involved in getting the next boat just the way you like it. In other words it's going to cost you $50k to get back into boating. It seems far more logical to put the money into getting this boat running again as it seems likely you could do it for less than $50k.

I'd get a second opinioin from another mechanic.

A boat with a blown engine of unknown seriousness is unsellable and uninsurable.. Your fastest, lowest risk path out of it is to fix the engine ASAP. Hopefully that means repair vs repower. But going to market with a dead-in-water family cruiser is fraught with all sorts of landmines.

Good luck. Sorry for your troubles

Peter

Comodave said:

Call Brian at American Diesel. He can probably give you some good advice on how to proceed. 804-435-3107

Click to expand...

They are the Lehman experts and can also simplify things with a replacement if needed, just drop in rather than the major task of a different engine. However, most of us still are not convinced you need a new engine, just very convinced you need a new mechanic or boatyard.

BandB said:

However, most of us still are not convinced you need a new engine, just very convinced you need a new mechanic or boatyard.

Click to expand...

Agreed. I know it's tempting to go to worst case scenario when bad stuff happens even when there are many other plausible scenarios. But as the saying goes, "when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."

A decent mechanic should be able to provide a reasonable diagnosis within a few hours time.

Peter