Does your 38 leak at the aft end of the pilothouse door rails?

I have twice discovered mysterious puddles in the engine room of my 2007 Mariner 37 and after some sleuthing, traced them to the exposed end of vertical wood beams (roughly 2x4 size) that support the inboard edges of the bridge stairs at the aft end of the pilothouse door lower rails. Water puddles in the pilothouse footwells despite the nearby drain and when sufficient, wicks down those boards into the engine room.

I have used Git Rot penetrating epoxy to stem the rot, but those exposed ends need some protection from the elements. What is supposed to be there? The pilothouse doors can not roll that far aft, but it looks like there should be a layer of fiberglass covering those areas. What do the newer 38s and 38Es have?

Is this a job for penetrating resin, fiberglass, or 4200?

Following.

With a new 38 on order I wish I could take a pic and send, but can't.

As for "What do the newer 38s and 38Es have?", I am not aware of any wood being used in construction, other than the obvious internal cabinetry. Koosa board is used in the stringers under the engine for example. Foam core under the decks.

Seems to me that after repair of damage, glass is the way to go.

Necessitating removal of the door, to remove the track?

I scrubbed the exposed end grain a few weeks ago and applied Git Rot liberally. Those end grains now have an epoxy look to them. Following a more thorough cleaning of the surrounding area, my plan is to apply white silicone to cover the exposed wood.

Don’t use silicone, nothing will ever stick to the area that had silicone on it. Instead use something like Sika 291. It is paintable.

Roger that. What about 4200? Is that similar to Sika 291?

You can use 4200. I used to use it but I tried Sika 291 and prefer it. I had several tubes of 4200 that went bad before they should have so I went to the Sika.

what did you end up doing?

HeadedToTexas said:

I have twice discovered mysterious puddles in the engine room of my 2007 Mariner 37 and after some sleuthing, traced them to the exposed end of vertical wood beams (roughly 2x4 size) that support the inboard edges of the bridge stairs at the aft end of the pilothouse door lower rails. Water puddles in the pilothouse footwells despite the nearby drain and when sufficient, wicks down those boards into the engine room.

I have used Git Rot penetrating epoxy to stem the rot, but those exposed ends need some protection from the elements. What is supposed to be there? The pilothouse doors can not roll that far aft, but it looks like there should be a layer of fiberglass covering those areas. What do the newer 38s and 38Es have?

Is this a job for penetrating resin, fiberglass, or 4200?

Click to expand...

I am a new purchaser of a 2008 Mariner 37/Helmsman 38. So you are saying your water is actually coming in from somewhere near the bottom of the outside stairs that lead to topside? Our survey found water damage and some moisture at the aft bottom of the pilot house doors, and have asked for input about a fix to seal what looks like a gap. I'll get back on the boat next week to explore further, but this was a pic I took. would I dry out and pick out any loose material and fill with GIT ROT? someone suggested it may be a gasket material or to use a thin epoxy injected into holes I would drill and follow up with a thicker epoxy. You have any conclusions?

The jury is still out on my Git Rot fix. I did not go to the length of drill holes and filling with Git Rot or some other epoxy, but I did read about that and it makes a lot of sense. I do not believe I have a structural problem, but it will definitely wick water down into the engine room from through the exposed end grain of that wood. My plan is to get it clean, then coat it with 4200 of Sika.

On a related note, Did Helmsman fix that problem in later versions? The only real gripe I have about out boat is that the deck at the bottom of the bridge stairs outside the pilothouse doors are not pitched to drain through the nearby port. Same with the seat in the forward shower. If anything, it is pitched slightly outboard so that it retains water rather than drains it into the shower floor. Is hull #3 the only one with those water retaining problems?

HeadedToTexas said:

On a related note, Did Helmsman fix that problem in later versions? The only real gripe I have about out boat is that the deck at the bottom of the bridge stairs outside the pilothouse doors are not pitched to drain through the nearby port. Same with the seat in the forward shower. If anything, it is pitched slightly outboard so that it retains water rather than drains it into the shower floor. Is hull #3 the only one with those water retaining problems?

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As you know, your boat was built by Mariner. Since Helmsman took over when Mariner went under the boat has undergone systematic and extensive changes. The keel was lengthened. The rudder moved more aft and made larger. The cabin tops. The length of the top deck / cockpit overhang. The list of changes are extensive.

As to the area you are working on, my best understanding is significant changes were made. Today there isn't exposed structural wood on the deck, which is all glass. I don't yet have my boat and obviously can't see yours apart from the pics you have posted so I can't comment on details. It would be an interesting exercise to walk aboard new and old and compare.

For me, part of the appeal of ordering a H38 is the very fact that it has been and continues to be refined over time. Each successive boat improves. Often its just equipment upgrades but also often its more structural sorts of things. The ones that come after mine will likely be better yet.

Is glassing that spot over (after any rot repair), then gelcoat it, an option? Or is there ANY flex there that would have that fail?

The steady refinements are excellent and I try to emulate them whenever possible. In this case, the 2007 Mariner 37 did not have exposed wood either. Rather, it had fiberglass door stops at the ends of each lower door rail. After one too many collisions with the pilothouse door (before my time), the stop broke off leaving the wood exposed.

I'll check next week when we get on the boat

HeadedToTexas said:

The jury is still out on my Git Rot fix. I did not go to the length of drill holes and filling with Git Rot or some other epoxy, but I did read about that and it makes a lot of sense. I do not believe I have a structural problem, but it will definitely wick water down into the engine room from through the exposed end grain of that wood. My plan is to get it clean, then coat it with 4200 of Sika.

On a related note, Did Helmsman fix that problem in later versions? The only real gripe I have about out boat is that the deck at the bottom of the bridge stairs outside the pilothouse doors are not pitched to drain through the nearby port. Same with the seat in the forward shower. If anything, it is pitched slightly outboard so that it retains water rather than drains it into the shower floor. Is hull #3 the only one with those water retaining problems?

Click to expand...

I think we have hull number 9 as there is a 09 of the 7th and 8th number in the VIN. Since ours has the metal plate that says "Mariner 37 Seville Pilothouse" by the Pilothouse door, I am guessing the boat was started in 2007 by Mariner and then purchased and finished by Helmsman in 08. I do see what ever is covering the presumed wood piece by the steps in a photo, which if I understand your pic, is the piece that broke off exposing the wood and leaking into the engine room. As I look at this pic, it looks like the deck there on that last step is slightly slanted, so maybe water doesn't pool there, but I'll check that and the shower stall. I too am concerned about overall the improvements done over the years means this older model has some big deficiencies, including the handling as it relates to the smaller rudder. Before the price increases of the last 4 it may have been worth it, and I already have buyers remorse. Mine has a lot of issues so I suspect it is going to be a money pit the likes of which I have never experienced in my 42 years of boating.
years, a new boat was more appealing

I'll check next week when we get on the boat

HeadedToTexas said:

The jury is still out on my Git Rot fix. I did not go to the length of drill holes and filling with Git Rot or some other epoxy, but I did read about that and it makes a lot of sense. I do not believe I have a structural problem, but it will definitely wick water down into the engine room from through the exposed end grain of that wood. My plan is to get it clean, then coat it with 4200 of Sika.

On a related note, Did Helmsman fix that problem in later versions? The only real gripe I have about out boat is that the deck at the bottom of the bridge stairs outside the pilothouse doors are not pitched to drain through the nearby port. Same with the seat in the forward shower. If anything, it is pitched slightly outboard so that it retains water rather than drains it into the shower floor. Is hull #3 the only one with those water retaining problems?

Click to expand...

I think we have hull number 9 as there is a 09 of the 7th and 8th number in the VIN. Since ours has the metal plate that says "Mariner 37 Seville Pilothouse" by the Pilothouse door, I am guessing the boat was started in 2007 by Mariner and then purchased and finished by Helmsman in 08. I do see what ever is covering the presumed wood piece by the steps in a photo, which if I understand your pic, is the piece that broke off exposing the wood and leaking into the engine room. As I look at this pic, it looks like the deck there on that last step is slightly slanted, so maybe water doesn't pool there, but I'll check that and the shower stall. I too am concerned about overall the improvements done over the years means this older model has some big deficiencies, including the handling as it relates to the smaller rudder. Before the price increases of the last 4 it may have been worth it, and I already have buyers remorse. Mine has a lot of issues so I suspect it is going to be a money pit the likes of which I have never experienced in my 42 years of boating.

capran said:

I think we have hull number 9 as there is a 09 of the 7th and 8th number in the VIN. Since ours has the metal plate that says "Mariner 37 Seville Pilothouse" by the Pilothouse door, I am guessing the boat was started in 2007 by Mariner and then purchased and finished by Helmsman in 08. I do see what ever is covering the presumed wood piece by the steps in a photo, which if I understand your pic, is the piece that broke off exposing the wood and leaking into the engine room. As I look at this pic, it looks like the deck there on that last step is slightly slanted, so maybe water doesn't pool there, but I'll check that and the shower stall. I too am concerned about overall the improvements done over the years means this older model has some big deficiencies, including the handling as it relates to the smaller rudder. Before the price increases of the last 4 it may have been worth it, and I already have buyers remorse. Mine has a lot of issues so I suspect it is going to be a money pit the likes of which I have never experienced in my 42 years of boating.
years, a new boat was more appealing

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History: an awful lot of the history of Mariner and then the transition to Helmsman I learned by going through every single Helmsman post here. If you have the patience some evening, its worth the time. Its clear there was a lot of chaos since Mariner went down hard with boats in a semi-finished state. I would not assume Helmsman was involved with your boat unless its confirmed.

One upgrade designed by one poster here, who's a pretty salty sailor, and whose boat was caught up in the Mariner ending chaos, was to modify the rudder. At least one other boat had it done as well and report very favorable results. They had a yard add 2 inches to the FRONT edge of the rudder. That added a bit more bite with more area, and done on the front edge it actually reduces pressure on the steering systems. I just mention that because apparently its not hard and has a favorable impact. I am guessing conversations about that led to Helmsman's more extensive change in the keel and rudder. You have other issues taking front and center at the moment.

The guy I referenced has been running his boat and living aboard since he bought it. From his posting and some magazine articles he has written, my impression is that he's not the kind of guy who would have put up with a dog of a boat. My guess is that when you deal with what you can see, your issues are done, apart from any downstream issues of cleaning up after the water infiltration mentioned. That plus of course anything just age related that would come up with anything of that vintage.

capran said:

I am a new purchaser of a 2008 Mariner 37/Helmsman 38. So you are saying your water is actually coming in from somewhere near the bottom of the outside stairs that lead to topside? Our survey found water damage and some moisture at the aft bottom of the pilot house doors, and have asked for input about a fix to seal what looks like a gap. I'll get back on the boat next week to explore further, but this was a pic I took. would I dry out and pick out any loose material and fill with GIT ROT? someone suggested it may be a gasket material or to use a thin epoxy injected into holes I would drill and follow up with a thicker epoxy. You have any conclusions?

Click to expand...

I've been thinking about this.

Is this on the edge of the sliding door?

This is the fellow.

http://https://fb.watch/d7DtjytbyE/

http://https://www.proptalk.com/cruising-icw-tips-first-timers

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s64/mariner-yachts-5115.html

yes, pictured above

FWT said:

I've been thinking about this.

Is this on the edge of the sliding door?

Click to expand...

Going to take a closer look late Tuesday. From my first look that is pictured, there is a thin bit of wood along the aft edge of the pilothouse door frame, and as it approaches the bottom, the wood stops and there is a gap in the pic. I suspect that is where water has wicked inside and caused the discolored wood in the inside picture. and it had moisture in that area with the surveyors meter. The boat is being hauled Tuesday to replace a seacock and possibly the thru-hull, and the yard manager will look at the PSS and tell me if the shaft would accommodate a Tides Marine seal or if his recommendation is to stick with the PSS. (he said if the end of the shaft is in good shape, the option of the Tides Seal is in play, but if the install of the PSS caused some sort of roughness, I'd have to stick with the PSS system. There are no leaks but i know it was overdue when he bought the boat 6 years ago, and he rarely used it and didn't do a new PSS.

Tadhana (as ref in Post #16) is very sharp and knows boat systems well. I communicated with him back in 2017 when we were considering a Helmsman. I don't think he has been on TF for quite some time, but you may be able to locate him on Facebook under one of the trawler groups like MTOA.

capran said:

Going to take a closer look late Tuesday. From my first look that is pictured, there is a thin bit of wood along the aft edge of the pilothouse door frame, and as it approaches the bottom, the wood stops and there is a gap in the pic. I suspect that is where water has wicked inside and caused the discolored wood in the inside picture. and it had moisture in that area with the surveyors meter. The boat is being hauled Tuesday to replace a seacock and possibly the thru-hull, and the yard manager will look at the PSS and tell me if the shaft would accommodate a Tides Marine seal or if his recommendation is to stick with the PSS. (he said if the end of the shaft is in good shape, the option of the Tides Seal is in play, but if the install of the PSS caused some sort of roughness, I'd have to stick with the PSS system. There are no leaks but i know it was overdue when he bought the boat 6 years ago, and he rarely used it and didn't do a new PSS.

Click to expand...

OK, thanks. Its hard to tell from any pictures. In person things can instantly look different. But it appears you have some options to explore on the door.

I can't tell what sort of wood is there now. One option is to remove the entire strip and replace it. Can't know from the pics just how it is attached so can't tell what's involved to remove it. Can't tell if there is any bedding behind it. But going that route is probably the "right" fix if its practical. If it were me I'd replace with teak. Some friend with a thickness planner could get a strip to the correct thickness, and a table saw to the correct width. Next comes that taper, and I'd be making a template of that shape on cardboard to transfer / draw onto the teak. A sharp block plane or drawknife can get that into rough dimension finished by a belt sander. I would keep that taper's tip as blunt as practical to keep it the least fragile. Teak won't rot and its quite strong stuff. What isn't visible is how it attaches and any bedding / sealant under it, which I am guessing one would want. This project seems like one that involves more time than money. Unless you are paying a yard for their time.

So a second option would be to use a SHARP narrow chisel to carefully clean up and square up the end of the remaining strip, fashion a "chip" of that size and shape, and slip it in secured with some sort of glue. But dropping wood chips into the door cavity may create more issues than this option solves, let alone drips of glue. Can't begin to tell if there is a surface to glue against, other than the end of existing piece and glue isn't going to work well putting two end grains together.

[Note: if you have no background in woodworking chisels, they are an inexpensive tool. But they do not come sharpened. They are ground to a bevel. You have to spend some time sharpening them to get them to a condition where they can do their work with any ease. First using a soft Arkansas stone, followed by hard black Arkansas stone. Done on both the bevel and the flat side until it is mirror shiney.]

If it were me, I'd lean strongly to remove and replace the strip, if I had a good sense of how to get it off, and get the new strip on. On, bedded, and / or caulked.

That done, somehow, let the inside dry out and see where that stands. Fingers crossed a very light sanding followed by fresh varnish might bring it back nicely. If the wall takes more serious work, you can find on Amazon some teak veneer. Cut away and strip off the bad sections and glue on the new. Let sunlight darken it a bit to match the color of the old sun-darkened stuff, and then varnish. Again, more time than money, and not difficult.

Which of course just leaves the shaft seal, which you have well in hand with the help of the yard. That's a 5 year replacement schedule item as I recall with that brand.

I, too, am having a bit of an issue following exactly where the exterior wood is situated. If it is the full height of the door from top to bottom, then where does the water damage begin? The wood appears to be exposed. Is it exposed from the top to the bottom, or is it covered with fiberglass? When you get to the boat, perhaps a picture or two further out would help us understand the full problem a little better.

If it is a short exposed piece, I would consider cutting the bad wood off a couple of inches higher than the obvious discoloration. I would coat the remaining wood with something to seal it well, particularly the end where wicking could occur. I would use PVC to replace it. It can be worked similarly to wood. If you have access to the entire piece of wood, I would remove the entire piece and replace with a PVC replacement.

To get ahead of the possibility of water leaking through the end of the track, I would look at a newer Helmsman to see if the issue has been addressed. If so, there is a possibility of incorporating those changes.

I would address the interior wood only after you have the ingress stopped on the outside. Sometimes sanding the wood and re-coating will take care of it.

Helmsman said:

I, too, am having a bit of an issue following exactly where the exterior wood is situated. If it is the full height of the door from top to bottom, then where does the water damage begin? The wood appears to be exposed. Is it exposed from the top to the bottom, or is it covered with fiberglass? When you get to the boat, perhaps a picture or two further out would help us understand the full problem a little better.

If it is a short exposed piece, I would consider cutting the bad wood off a couple of inches higher than the obvious discoloration. I would coat the remaining wood with something to seal it well, particularly the end where wicking could occur. I would use PVC to replace it. It can be worked similarly to wood. If you have access to the entire piece of wood, I would remove the entire piece and replace with a PVC replacement.

To get ahead of the possibility of water leaking through the end of the track, I would look at a newer Helmsman to see if the issue has been addressed. If so, there is a possibility of incorporating those changes.

I would address the interior wood only after you have the ingress stopped on the outside. Sometimes sanding the wood and re-coating will take care of it.

Click to expand...

I agree, that my plan would be to stop further water from getting in, drying it out very thoroughly and sealing it before the interior refinish. My impression from the first look and picture is that there is a small strip of wood that runs the up and down height of basically what amounts to a door jamb, and the zoomed in picture shows that piece of wood coming to an end. Also, from the looks of it, I think it looks like weathered teak. Unfortunately I didn't feel around inside that dark space at the bottom to know is that some sort of rubber seal, or is it a gap in the fiberglass. There's a little more pixels in the original picture but I had to reduce it to get it to a size I could post. It may be I'll have to look at what's involved removing the whole door to really create full access, as the door partially covers the edge. I'll take additional pics as I can. Tuesday we're just getting aboard for the afternoon and evening and having her hauled on Wednesday for the shaft seal and a through hull and sea cock and strainer. We're six hours away and close the final papers on the 31st, so early to mid June we should get more time aboard, and plan a summer out and about. Just a bit overwhelming as I watched the survey of my sailboat which had very few issues, and was a 1997.

a slightly longer pic showing more of the sliding door

my memory says the wood goes to the top. going to take a mirror and a probe. looks too like water could get in under the edge of the wood as it trickles down, but then again, I suspect the dark area of allowing the water to wick in there.

I don't like what I'm saying because I don't like bandaid solutions. But if I am seeing that right it almost looks like a glob of caulk in there might at least stop water intrusion until you sort out a more permanent solution. That's assuming there is a doorjam and this hole is behind the face of the jam. Or heck, as a temp thing a short strip of white duct tape.

FWT said:

I don't like what I'm saying because I don't like bandaid solutions. But if I am seeing that right it almost looks like a glob of caulk in there might at least stop water intrusion until you sort out a more permanent solution. That's assuming there is a doorjam and this hole is behind the face of the jam. Or heck, as a temp thing a short strip of white duct tape.

Click to expand...

We're in the PNW and hope to have a bit of dry weather where I can first dry it out thoroughly, maybe with a hair drier. I agree there are temporary things. But I don't want to put something in there that might make a more permanent solution more difficult. I'd almost put duct tape or packing tape over it before caulk, as it might not interfere with getting GIT Rot or another epoxy drilled and filled in later. If it is an actual gap at the bottom, I sure don't understand the construction purpose. I'll know more in a few days but won't have internet until we return sometime Thursday.