PNW Trawler Market - Prices

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Janusz

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2016
Messages
30
Location
Canada
Vessel Name
Mo'Ana
Vessel Make
OA Europa 40
I see asking prices quite high. Looking at older (around 40 yrs old) Taiwanese boats.
Is it possible that they appreciated over last 5-8 years? I thought you always lose money on old boats.
 
Not in this market. Time will tell in the future.
 
I think there will always be a market on well designed, well maintained trawlers, :thumb:regardless of age. The major drawback to the age IMHO, is recent changes in the insurance industry that may leave people scrambling to find affordable, quality insurance in some geographical areas.:nonono:
 
So, is say 45% appreciation over last 6 yrs something to be expected in today's market ?
Or would it be too optimistic?
 
So, is say 45% appreciation over last 6 yrs something to be expected in today's market ?
Or would it be too optimistic?

Short term yes, then expect a sudden drop when conditions change and people dump luxury items to pay the mortgage.

Not sure about 45% over 6 years, I see 45% over last 3-4 years though around here.
 
Normal trends are a buyers market, though the percentage varies wildly. Some brands such as Nordhavn have defended their resale values exceptionally well. Ar the other end are custom one-off designs (unicorns) that take forever to sell and see steep decline.

From time to time an event disrupts normal trends and shifts the curve. 1973 oil crisis. 2008 Recession. 2020 Pandemic.

I see the airline sector is up 11% in the last two weeks, and many of the Pandemic stocks such as Netflix have clipped much of their lofty gains. Perhaps this means people are returning to normal vacation activities and will deselect boat ownership.

It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where used boat values don't decline but I have been so wrong these last few years. Inflation and high interest rates should be whacking the residential real estate market but it's still on fire. 3-months before the pandemic, a friend sold his house in Coconut Grove, a desireble part of Miami. Initially, I thought he was the luckiest guy on the planet to have sold before the bottom dropped out. The house has roughly doubled in the 30 months since he sold.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Tough market to buy into.

Peter
 

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Lack of inventory, was the words used by a broker we talked to last week. When we stated we would be going to Trawlerfest in Anacortes. He said don't waste your time, unless your interested in a new boat. The two boats that this broker was going to show at Trawlerfest had already sold. I suspect, others brokers are in the same boat, pardon the pun. Limited supply, fetches high prices.
 
After studying the market for a few months, I bought another motorcycle and decided to wait until we have a "market adjustment" before buying. I am seeing boats that should be hauled off for scrap at $40k and anything I would want starting at twice that... not enough inventory, too much demand.


~ Henry
 
I think it has a lot to do with location, Puget Sound and the San Juan islands are highly regarded cruising grounds.

We decided to buy a budget trawler here on the east coast to learn on and figure out what we want on our next boat when we relocate west.
 
Over the last ten years boat prices, especially used boat prices have fluctuated widely. From a low about ten years ago to a high about two (or so years ago) . But you need to be careful about reaching false conclusions based on asking prices.

Any dramatic event, Covid, Ukraine invasion, maybe even a big deal local event like a midwest storm will cause asking prices to jump (or drop) IMMEDIATELY, like that very day. It may take months for the actual market to fluctuate.

For instance.. Lets say that there are four large marina and boat manufacturing fires one dreaded Sunday night in and around Lake Michigan. The next day boat asking prices will go up. Supply and demand! Will buyers pay the asking price? Doubtful but maybe.

Remember also that determining actual price a boat sold for is a very tricky business. Someone may say they got $60,000 for their boat but what about the condition, what about a trade in, what about having to carry some paper? Was it the middle of the winter or prime boat buying season?

pete
 
Over the last ten years boat prices, especially used boat prices have fluctuated widely. From a low about ten years ago to a high about two (or so years ago) . But you need to be careful about reaching false conclusions based on asking prices.

Any dramatic event, Covid, Ukraine invasion, maybe even a big deal local event like a midwest storm will cause asking prices to jump (or drop) IMMEDIATELY, like that very day. It may take months for the actual market to fluctuate.

For instance.. Lets say that there are four large marina and boat manufacturing fires one dreaded Sunday night in and around Lake Michigan. The next day boat asking prices will go up. Supply and demand! Will buyers pay the asking price? Doubtful but maybe.

Remember also that determining actual price a boat sold for is a very tricky business. Someone may say they got $60,000 for their boat but what about the condition, what about a trade in, what about having to carry some paper? Was it the middle of the winter or prime boat buying season?

pete

Absolutely need to not overreact to asking prices. There are people looking at opportunistic selling. It's the "I don't really care but if someone is willing to pay me this, I'll sell." I see the same thing in the South Florida housing market as we have a friend who buys houses but hasn't paid asking for any. On the other hand there are markets where every house is selling for more than asking. I've heard Dallas and Houston are that way.

The reality is if you find a boat you want, you make an offer and see what happens. You may be closer to what the seller wants than you think. If not, you move on to the next one.

Now to add, there is a real shortage of used boats for some groups of years. We're about to see more as very few boats were built from 2009-2015 or so. Much fewer than before or since.
 
I think there will always be a market on well designed, well maintained trawlers, :thumb:regardless of age. The major drawback to the age IMHO, is recent changes in the insurance industry that may leave people scrambling to find affordable, quality insurance in some geographical areas.:nonono:


I will not argue with your assessment of the insurance situation, but the irony is that I think my 1973 GB36 is a better built hull than some of the newer boats. They weren't very familiar with composite layup and compensated by hand laying an over abundance of material. I just had it glass bead blasted and the guy said he hasn't seen many hulls in the extraordinary condition mine is in. Mine was apparently Epoxy coated from the factory which prevented any water saturation. Age shouldn't be the predominant factor, but a comprehensive survey. Alas that would make sense and completely mess with the actuaries heads'.
 
If I were an insurer, age of a fiberglass hull would be of little concern. It's all the other stuff inside the hull that would cause me to limit age of boat I'd insure. Tanks, electrical systems, DIY "upgrades." You get the idea.

Peter
 
If I were an insurer, age of a fiberglass hull would be of little concern. It's all the other stuff inside the hull that would cause me to limit age of boat I'd insure. Tanks, electrical systems, DIY "upgrades." You get the idea.

Peter
Agreed. I am trying my best to undo all of the DIY performed over the years and bring everything I can up to ABYC standards. I am replacing 2 of the bulkheads as they were rotted. I am photographing every thing I do for future reference. No insurance Co would touch the boat in it's original condition. I'm not sure if they will after I'm done either, but I'll give it a shot.
 
I’m wondering what the net of high inflation, higher interest rates and a possible recession will be on higher end boat prices? Inflation should make new boats cost more, supporting used prices. Higher interest rates will make financing more expensive for those that finance. And recession will lower demand.

Which prevails?
 
I know we've had lots of threads on this topic, but I still see zero indicators that boat prices are falling at any level. Or houses. Or RV's. I know prices for large boats at my marina are always a little higher than you'd expect because of the time and trouble and money it takes to move big(ger), non-trailerable boats to this area, but even elsewhere -- well, for example, my father lives in a marina condo in Stuart, FL and took me for a boat ride to see all the boats at the nearby Fleming dealership (Burr yacht sales). Cheapest used boat was $2 million. I know Flemings are very high end and deservedly so, but even in a very active area like FL, he sees continued price spikes on the horizon and Dad's a former yacht broker. No decline in sight -- although I can't tell anymore if it's market forces and current supply and demand, or inflation or both.
 
My sense of it (your mileage may vary) is that there has been a permanent change brought about by Covid. People are reconsidering their work-life balances, driven by the wake-up call that things entirely outside your control can shorten your life expectancy dramatically. A "don't plan for retirement, do it now" sort of thing.

Combine that with another Covid-driven thing wherein people don't want to vacation in large, crowded environments anymore. Resorts are out, AirBnBs are in. I don't see this changing, though resorts will still have customers, because more people are traveling.

All of this is to say that boating is more popular because of Covid, and I think that popularity is here to stay.
 
I just love some of the buzz words used, sarcastically love. Words like "Normal". What is that? Is it the high end or the low end? Who defines it? There is no such thing as normal pricing. It varies.

Similarly I read posts saying they see a market drop soon and others saying they think the higher prices are permanent.

In the most recent posts I see "recession will lower demand", "continued price spikes on the horizon" and "I think that popularity is here to stay."

Reality, none of us know. Law of averages say some of us will be right, but not because we knew, some simply had to be right. I believe strongly prices will rise until they drop, then drop until they rise. I just have no idea when either limit will occur.
 
I just love some of the buzz words...like "Normal". What is that?

Not to be argumentative or pedantic, but I think a reasonable definition of "normal" is "within one standard deviation of average on a normal distribution curve", or (in better English) about 68% of the time. :)

But yes, people are bothered by change... until they get used to whatever they've changed to, and then they don't want to move off of that. Also, I can't predict the weather tomorrow, let alone boat sales markets.
 
I'm reminded of the US Supreme Court decision that said it's like defining "pornography" -- you know it when you see it. And you're right, so much is subjective, but I think there's a general consensus that $6 gas (for Americans) isn't normal, and $5 milk isn't normal, and $6.00 ground beef isn't normal. Not being able to buy or produce enough baby formula to feed babies (for Americans), or having to rely on supply flights from Germany, isn't normal. Waiting a year for a boat generator (new thread elsewhere I see) isn't normal. Of course we're guessing at the future. We each offer our best guesses with what we see and know.

I'm about as far from the center of the boating universe as I can be, but I'm at a national crossroads of RV activity. The RV parks near our marina are exploding - and when I say "exploding" I mean there are six new RV parks in the last year and hundreds of spots are already occupied, and we're not even in the big summer crunch area around Mt. Rushmore and the Black Hills. We drive to the marina now and pass a sea of RV's on both sides of the highway. It's astounding. You pull up Google satellite images and you won't see much, because the gigantic RV parks weren't there when we pulled the boat last fall when the images were taken. Last October it was empty cropland, now they're RV parks with hundreds of people there. You check the hundreds of campsites an RV pads around our marina at the moment, booked solid. Nothing available, zero. Now maybe we're still coasting, still moving in slow motion through economic inertia and the crash hasn't taken effect yet (but eventually will). That makes sense to me. But to the extent RV's are an indicator of recreational markets (like boats) I still don't see a decline yet.
 
Not to be argumentative or pedantic, but I think a reasonable definition of "normal" is "within one standard deviation of average on a normal distribution curve", or (in better English) about 68% of the time. :)

But yes, people are bothered by change... until they get used to whatever they've changed to, and then they don't want to move off of that. Also, I can't predict the weather tomorrow, let alone boat sales markets.

But it would not be within one standard deviation of a stagnant average in an industry that over the years has rising prices. You'd have to build in the curve the impact of inflation, then it might be within some deviation of that. It has to factor in the reality of previous periods of inflation and price increases.
 
My sense of it (your mileage may vary) is that there has been a permanent change brought about by Covid. People are reconsidering their work-life balances, driven by the wake-up call that things entirely outside your control can shorten your life expectancy dramatically. A "don't plan for retirement, do it now" sort of thing.

Combine that with another Covid-driven thing wherein people don't want to vacation in large, crowded environments anymore. Resorts are out, AirBnBs are in. I don't see this changing, though resorts will still have customers, because more people are traveling.

All of this is to say that boating is more popular because of Covid, and I think that popularity is here to stay.

As the joke goes about predicting the future, the only guarantee is that you'll be wrong. Or you might be right, but without being able to predict when. In other words, no one really knows.

What is guaranteed is that the SARS-CoV-2 virus is going to be with us for the foreseeable future. Probably beyond the remaining lifespan of most of the people on this forum (certainly myself). There will be no 'end' to this pandemic.

What is mostly unknown and unpredictable is how people will react. At least here in the U.S., the country and people initially went through a shock stage, with precautionary measures effected by governments. The surge in interest in boating was one of the results, with people looking for 'safe', 'socially distanced' activities they could do while reducing the risk of getting infected.

Now my sense is that most people in this country are in a denial and delusion phase. In most areas I see very few people wearing masks (excepting Vermont and coastal Maine). People have decided they're "done with COVID", even though the virus is FAR from done with us. In short, few people care anymore. As a society, we've normalized and accepted horrifically high death and infection rates as a price we're willing to pay in exchange for being able to eat indoors in restaurants unfettered, and freedom from the tyranny of having to wear a mask while shopping.

All of which is reflected in the extraordinarily (and unnecessarily) high both total infection and death rates in the U.S. As a culture, we've effectively decided we'd literally rather have death than perceived impositions on our 'freedoms' (as long as those deaths happen to someone else).

Purely from the perspective of boating, it will be interesting to see how this plays out. On one hand, you may be right and most of the people who bought boats will stick with it.

On the other hand, I can see a few reasons why the boat market might change.

First, think of how many people try boating, and are turned off by the realities of maintenance, costs, and other headaches (that we accept as the price to be paid for boating). I've heard several newbies to the hobby complaining that they didn't realize it was so hard and expensive to keep a boat (and I've seen the result with their poorly maintained, poor condition misused and abused boats being offered for sale). More newbies might come to that same conclusion. Especially because...

Second, more and more people are returning to living as they did pre-pandemic, because they're 'done with COVID.' They're returning to their pre-pandemic hobbies, interests, and activities, travel, etc. They may not 'need' a boat as much any longer.

Third, there is widespread and growing consensus that the economy is going into a recession sometime later this year. The stock market is down about 20%-ish from its highs, technically putting it into a bear market (whatever that really means).

One of the biggest motivators of human behavior is FOMO - Fear Of Missing Out. It's been a sellers market for boats and prices have climbed to insane levels (even for poor condition abused boats from newbies) because buyers didn't want to miss out on getting a boat. Some sellers seem to have held out listing their boats, hoping for an even greater windfall. It might continue this way for a while. But if the tide starts turning the other way, whether catalyzed by an economic recession, or simply an increase in supply of people getting out, then FOMO could work the other way. If prices start softening, it could start a rush of boats coming onto the market out of fear for missing the peak and not wanting prices to go even lower before selling.

Ultimately, the only guarantee about the future is that it will arrive. Those that are around will see what happens. Until then, anyone's guess is as good as anyone elses.
 
Where you stand - where you live - has a lot to do with your economic conclusions of course (duh). I don't mean to detour this thread into covid by any means, but as the media made so clear, we had almost no covid restrictions here, or just for a few weeks in 2020 at the height of the panic. In the long run it made no statistical difference that I've seen, while tourism and tourism revenue exploded, visitation to Mt Rushmore broke records, the Sturgis rally bikers still came, we still held the state fairs, we only closed schools for April and May 2020. My point is, our marina is spending millions to expand, housing and land has gotten silly expensive, and from my perspective the whole covid time drove people and families to make or shift thier recreational choices for a very long time to come. I think some things are going to crash, but it'll be interesting to see which sectors crash and which stay hot or healthy. Disney stock is dropping like a rock, but there's a years long waiting list at our marina (and I don't think the Disney drop is necessarily due to FL poliitics). Recreational choices have changed and that may insulate boating from the crash, to some degree anyway.
 
Gentle thread reminder: This thread is about the Trawler Market in the PNW. If you wish to discuss something else, please start another thread. Thanks.
 
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