You are Not Qualified to have LI Batteries

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The histrionic, pearl clutching, metaphorical, hyperbolic, finger poking writing style leaves me exhausted yet delighted the article was mercifully brief. Noticeable lack of technical details other than LI= Satan’s electrons.
 
Do not take too lightly. Lithium battery training is now a requirement working for the Navy, or if you are in the Navy. There are an awful lot of issues with folks out there not understanding the difference and treating them like regular LA batteries.
 
Peter Swanson is an experienced marine tech and journalist. He is provocative that is for sure, but I'm not sure that is all bad. The discussion should though be specific for Li vs LFP batteries.

Will the ABYC writings on this subject, soon to be released, differentiate between Li and LFP batteries? With the chip and assorted electronics for an LFP install hitting some delivery delays I'm on hold for any changes from our old reliable never fail FLA Trojans.
 
It is a thought-provoking article, not a white paper on the tech or installation best practices.

His point about the average boatowner installing these, well heck any battery system, can be flat out dangerous.

Me???? I am all for DIY, but how many whiners we have right here on TF that are always pointing fingers at previous owner work (when most are previous owners themselves)????

If got some here worked up and hopefully will make those that really don't understand any kind of electrical systems to pause when deciding who out there will help or repair systems that aren't quite "old hat" yet.
 
I agree that the average DIYer can install FLA batteries and devices that charge and run off of them but dealing with LiFePo4 batteries takes it to another level. I have been reading, researching Li batteries for RV use. That is a much more benign application than for boats.

I have never read about an Li battery's internal BMS failing, but I suppose it is possible. I have some faith in top line manufacturer's Li batteries working well. But those that skimp on things like low temperature charging shutoff worry me.

The other issue that should affect RVers and boaters alike is that Li batteries can put too much load on the engine's alternator since Li batteries can draw many more amps while charging than LAs. No one seems to understand the ramifications of this on RV's and from what I can tell no one thinks about the ramifications for boats.

David
 
psneeld said:
It is a thought-provoking article, not a white paper on the tech or installation best practices.

His point about the average boatowner installing these, well heck any battery system, can be flat out dangerous.

Me???? I am all for DIY, but how many whiners we have right here on TF that are always pointing fingers at previous owner work (when most are previous owners themselves)????

If got some here worked up and hopefully will make those that really don't understand any kind of electrical systems to pause when deciding who out there will help or repair systems that aren't quite "old hat" yet.
Click to expand...



I don’t think it’s really any different than any other new thing. People need to learn about it, technicians and service companies first, and ultimately DIY folks. Over time it becomes more and more widely understood.
 
I agree, just not that the guy did anyhing more than raise awareness in a still relatively new tech for the average boater.

Just cracks me up with the inconsistent thrusts this site often takes....:rolleyes:
 
sunchaser said:
Peter Swanson is an experienced marine tech and journalist. He is provocative that is for sure, but I'm not sure that is all bad. The discussion should though be specific for Li vs LFP batteries.



Will the ABYC writings on this subject, soon to be released, differentiate between Li and LFP batteries? With the chip and assorted electronics for an LFP install hitting some delivery delays I'm on hold for any changes from our old reliable never fail FLA Trojans.
Click to expand...



E-13 just completed public review and is likely to be published this summer.

It needs to be generic relative to different battery types, and accomplishes this by referencing the particular battery manufacturers guidelines for installation, ventilation, fire suppression, temperatures, charging, etc. It’s really the only way to do it and cover the. Breadth of products available, and to not become outdated too soon.

If having a computer on board is viewed as a problem, then by all means stick with lead. But by the same argument you should remove your GPS, chart plotter, radar, auto pilot, etc. And if you boat is less that 15-20 years old, toss the engine, shift and throttle controls, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff. It’s good bar room ha, ha talk, but just ridiculous in all practical manner.

Provoking? Yes. Thought provoking? Not really.
 
Northern Spy said:
Read Calder's rebuttal on the same site.

https://loosecannon.substack.com/p/battery-backlash-nigel-calder-weighs

Peter Swanson is the real deal. He didn't write the previous article, he merely posted it. It would be a disservice to disregard him outright.
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Thanks Mike. Calder has been my preferred source for all things regarding Li battery power and related systems. Our "own" TT as well is a guy worth paying attention to.

As mentioned a few months ago, my marine insurance has no issues with Li. Unfortunately surveyor Luddites on this subject abound.
 
twistedtree said:
E-13 just completed public review and is likely to be published this summer.

It needs to be generic relative to different battery types, and accomplishes this by referencing the particular battery manufacturers guidelines for installation, ventilation, fire suppression, temperatures, charging, etc. It’s really the only way to do it and cover the. Breadth of products available, and to not become outdated too soon.

If having a computer on board is viewed as a problem, then by all means stick with lead. But by the same argument you should remove your GPS, chart plotter, radar, auto pilot, etc. And if you boat is less that 15-20 years old, toss the engine, shift and throttle controls, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff. It’s good bar room ha, ha talk, but just ridiculous in all practical manner.

Provoking? Yes. Thought provoking? Not really.
Click to expand...

Put yourself in the boaters shoes that isn't even sure of the difference between AC and DC electrical current.

Every day you can go to a battery store and people are buying batteries for cars, boats, lawn equipment and they are asking "this one fits, it is a bit smaller but a lot cheaper, is it OK?".

It cracks me up that people aren't necessarily afraid of lithium batteries (whatever chem catches fire more easily than the others), but aren't EVER gonna use a city water connection. I know of plenty more fires from batteries of all types than boats sinking from a city water supply. Now THAT's thought provoking.....:socool: come'on not even a little smile?

For years I have made suggestions here only to be reminded that many are newbies and shouldn't be given advice beyond their comprehension.... maybe I have finally caved. :D

NOT!
 
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sunchaser said:
Peter Swanson is an experienced marine tech and journalist. He is provocative that is for sure, but I'm not sure that is all bad. The discussion should though be specific for Li vs LFP batteries.

Will the ABYC writings on this subject, soon to be released, differentiate between Li and LFP batteries? With the chip and assorted electronics for an LFP install hitting some delivery delays I'm on hold for any changes from our old reliable never fail FLA Trojans.
Click to expand...






Hi Tom, Since he doesn't appear to know the differences between Lithium chemistries, or which chemistry is on boats, however experienced he is that experience doesn't extend to the subject he's giving advice on. Pretty ignorable, IMO.
 
twistedtree said:
E-13 just completed public review and is likely to be published this summer.

It needs to be generic relative to different battery types, and accomplishes this by referencing the particular battery manufacturers guidelines for installation, ventilation, fire suppression, temperatures, charging, etc. It’s really the only way to do it and cover the. Breadth of products available, and to not become outdated too soon.

If having a computer on board is viewed as a problem, then by all means stick with lead. But by the same argument you should remove your GPS, chart plotter, radar, auto pilot, etc. And if you boat is less that 15-20 years old, toss the engine, shift and throttle controls, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff. It’s good bar room ha, ha talk, but just ridiculous in all practical manner.

Provoking? Yes. Thought provoking? Not really.
Click to expand...

I reread the article and agree that the article failed on some major points. My bad for some of my other posts.

I would like to see how many boat fires have started from Lithium Ion devices ....if he had only stuck with that. But it does seem that LFP batteries are as safe as any others as long as they are treated correctly. He seems to have missed that major point.
 
psneeld said:
I would like to see how many boat fires have started from Lithium Ion devices ..
Click to expand...




That's the 64,000 dollar question. CharlieJ here on TF posed exactly this question on CruisersForum where there seems to be a lot more Lithium-Ion battery activity. Nobody got cite a single account. Even the author of the article offered zero examples, and he's a surveyor and forensic investigator. If anyone would have experience, it's him. But he offered none.
 
Y'alls reading comprehension is questionable.

Peter Swanson did not write the article. His website merely hosted it.

Does no one read and investigate the by-line?

"By Jonathan Klopman"

https://www.jklopman.com/

The guy does forensic investigations in the marine industry. I think he may illogically base his opinion on his own anecdotal data and may be guilty of selection bias.

i.e. If you investigate a buttload of lithium battery fires, you may come up with the opinion that lithium batteries are bad. Of course, he doesn't investigate all the lithium batteries that work just fine.
 
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twistedtree said:
That's the 64,000 dollar question. CharlieJ here on TF posed exactly this question on CruisersForum where there seems to be a lot more Lithium-Ion battery activity. Nobody got cite a single account. Even the author of the article offered zero examples, and he's a surveyor and forensic investigator. If anyone would have experience, it's him. But he offered none.
Click to expand...

Wasn't the dive boat in California blamed on LI battery charging? Wouldn't surprise me if there are more similar examples.

Granted it was not a house bank reason, but a boat fire just the same.

That was partially my comments about not defining the types of Lithium chemistry.... that he may have had a point but it got lost in the rest of the article.
 
psneeld said:
Wasn't the dive boat in California blamed on LI battery charging? Wouldn't surprise me if there are more similar examples.

Granted it was not a house bank reason, but a boat fire just the same.

That was partially my comments about not defining the types of Lithium chemistry.... that he may have had a point but it got lost in the rest of the article.
Click to expand...

It was a mobile phone battery or some other device if memory serves me correctly.
Certainly not lifepo4 house bank.
 
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Simi 60 said:
It was a mobile phone battery or some other device if memory serves me correctly.
Certainly not lifepo4 house bank.
Click to expand...

True, yet if the author had stuck with separating the 2 chemistries, and just cited/mentioned how the 2 are or not suited for boat use..... the article may have had some more credibility.
 
To give the devil his due, it does appear that electrical systems broadly are the least understood systems on a boat, by the broad mass of boaters. True before lithium comes into the equation.
 
So glad he’s vertical and taking nourishment. Over the years have learned a lot from him. Can’t think of anyone doing what he’s doing without bias or preconceived notions.
 
I absolutely love Rod’s articles. He is wonderful.
 
psneeld said:
Wasn't the dive boat in California blamed on LI battery charging? Wouldn't surprise me if there are more similar examples.
Click to expand...

That was just typical speculation, with no evidence that they were the cause.

Regardless, I agree wholeheartedly regarding the different types of batteries. For me, any vehicles or other higher capacity, non LFP devices should never be left plugged in. I even unplug power tool chargers when leaving the boat.
 
Northern Spy said:
Y'alls reading comprehension is questionable.

Peter Swanson did not write the article. His website merely hosted it.

Does no one read and investigate the by-line?

"By Jonathan Klopman"

https://www.jklopman.com/

The guy does forensic investigations in the marine industry. I think he may illogically base his opinion on his own anecdotal data and may be guilty of selection bias.

i.e. If you investigate a buttload of lithium battery fires, you may come up with the opinion that lithium batteries are bad. Of course, he doesn't investigate all the lithium batteries that work just fine.
Click to expand...



All correct, and interesting the author never mentions a single Lithium Ion investigation. That was my earlier point that if anyone should have first hand knowledge, he would. But he has none. Speaks to his credibility on the subject (low) and the the frequency of LFP boat fires (also low to non existent )
 
I was in the position once to convince the USN to sign-off on multiple 10k's of LiIon battery packs for the USMC. They were small enough to be off the radar, but I distantly recall a Li torpedo incident. Sub fires are a particularly bad thing.

here is some reading: https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/11/6/2631/htm
 
DD thanks for the link. At present believe lithium has a great deal to offer. Question arises as to whether complexities involved to do it right are worth it in a given application. If I was building a low displacement for lwl boat for long term cruising the answer is yes. Avoiding the extra weight and need to extra room would clearly make it worthwhile. Pb has lower useful energy density per unit volume or weight.
However in a vessel where weight and space is a minor concern or a refit of the entire electrical system is required it becomes more of a toss up. In my prior life I was a sailor. The centrally placed weight of a bank of Lifelines was part of the NAs calculations and not detrimental to performance or stability. The boat was designed for long term cruising so oversized allowing daily operation down to 70-80% soc and never brought to 50%. Replacement with even Carbon foam would require glassing in lead ingots to maintain trim. This would be more extensive with Li.
Yes Li has a significant upside. Less weight and more usable amps. But sometimes that has downstream consequences. That maybe true for some small recreational trawlers as well. We found between solar and wind for the last 10-20% of charge and the rare generator run for bulk we always had ample amps for our activities. We were never restricted by batteries. With a new build you still need battery chargers, inverters, dC to DC, wiring etc. so the cost differential is marginal. But for a existing vessel there maybe more bang for the buck putting in a adequate bank of Pb or C and most importantly adequate charging sources. Don’t think the decision is between Li or Pb/C. Do think decision is what is most appropriate for the vessel under discussion.
 
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