When Does it Become Cost Prohibited?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
Must be a conspiracy!!

NEtrawler58 said:

I don't think production has changed at all in 4 days and even if it did, It wouldn't reach the market quickly enough to cause that change. Prices right now are based on emotion and speculation.

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My using the word conspiracy is only a joke, NE. Truth of the matter... abuse of capitalism... for ways to make the most profit possible during times of high stress - is the "devil in the current mix"!

Capitalism:

An economic stance, a mobile financial-alteration system; i.e., a loosely, mostly privately controlled monetary flow-rate that operates in accordance to instantly adjustable product value-adjustments. Wherein private as well as public company actors/owners control property in accordance with their best interests. "Supply and demand" somewhat freely sets prices in markets as a way that may [or may not] serve the best interests of society. However, an essential feature of capitalism's rather free wheeling financial-style... is the high dollar preemptive motive to make as much profit as possible.

Thanks Art. I tend to believe in capitalism and laissez-faire in principal. I do have to admit that I am disturbed to hear that oil companies are hauling in record profits right now. I expect prices to rise with the cost of oil but that doesn't mean that profit margins have to rise as well. I may be getting this wrong by just listening to the news. But if the price of oil doubles, but the cost of producing and supplying gas to consumers only goes up 20%, why should the cost of gas double? Just because consumers think it's a 1 to 1 relationship to the price of crude? Or is it a money grab by big oil? I generally don't demonize big business or deny their right to maximize profits, but not if they are taking advantage of us just because they can.

hollywood8118 said:

You guys do realize that oil has dropped almost $40.00 a barrel in the last 4 days?, closed today at $96.00.
I think production is up tempering cost.
HOLLYWOOD

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Who could have guessed that oil at almost $100/barrel would be good news?

friz said:

Who could have guessed that oil at almost $100/barrel would be good news?

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I bought premium gas for $4.59 at Costco the other day and turned to my wife and said "Wow, that's a really cheap price!!". It's all relative....

Since the cost of any discretionary travel (air, RV, boat) are all going to be higher this year I have 2 choices
A - stay home
B - go boating

I choose B.

I also tend to look at things over a longer time period. In 2018 I was paying $3.30gl, 2020 I paid $2.20 so if I pay $4.50 this year my cost average over the 4 years will be around $3.50. Do I want to pay more, no but I also want to keep things in perspective.

kthoennes said:

Sure sailboaters, laugh at this problem, as you slip on a steep, wet companionway stair tread, crash down to the sole, go careening across the salon until you hit your head on the mast coming up through the middle of the salon, then crack your rib cage against the gimbaled stove because you slid across the teak-and-holly floor because the boat was heeled over at 20 degrees. You'd wave for help out the window, but since you only have tiny little porthole windows, and they're over your head and above your sightline, nobody will notice to send you medical help. But no worries, if you're unconscious, at least you won't be kept awake all night by slapping halyards, tink tink tink tink tink tink...

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Never happened while we sailed. Were we doing it wrong?

Jim

As one who keeps there boat in SE Alaska I can add that dock prices in Petersburg will be going up this summer. Monthly rates will increase by about 5% and daily transient rates will rise to .75/ft. Of course, these are all still low by lower 48 values.

Tator

hollywood8118 said:

You guys do realize that oil has dropped almost $40.00 a barrel in the last 4 days?, closed today at $96.00.
I think production is up tempering cost.
HOLLYWOOD

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Yes, but big oil is enjoying the current global situation to reap higher profits so it's unlikely prices will decline anytime soon. Refined fuel always goes up like a rocket and falls like a feather.

lwarden said:

Yes, but big oil is enjoying the current global situation to reap higher profits so it's unlikely prices will decline anytime soon. Refined fuel always goes up like a rocket and falls like a feather.

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Twin 370hp Cummings... Your 36' planing hull boat must fly!!!

What is good planing cruise speed and WOT speed for that baby?

I love raised deck hull designs. Your Lindell sweeps upward beautifully!

Art

Why don't more boaters call a fuel truck to meet them somewhere there is access and close to a road. Why only buy at a marina? I realize it must be hard to find somewhere like this but even if it takes 2 days to get there, you might be saving over $1 or more a gallon. If your tanks don't measure up to the fuel company's minimum delivery, get on the radio and talk up another person willing to go in with you.

Just kind of curious if anyone has done this, has heard of this, or am I just too much farmer-minded?

Ox76 said:

Why don't more boaters call a fuel truck to meet them somewhere there is access and close to a road. Why only buy at a marina? I realize it must be hard to find somewhere like this but even if it takes 2 days to get there, you might be saving over $1 or more a gallon. If your tanks don't measure up to the fuel company's minimum delivery, get on the radio and talk up another person willing to go in with you.

Just kind of curious if anyone has done this, has heard of this, or am I just too much farmer-minded?

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It definitely can be done. But ease of doing that definitely depends on where you are. In some places it's easy, in others there's either nowhere to do it, supplier availability concerns, may need to schedule too far in advance, etc.

Since our marina is just above a dam under the jurisdiction of the Army Corps of Engineers, to avoid the danger of fuel spills, they don't allow self-fueling. Doesn't entirely make sense because they don't monitor it very closely and dozens small boats -- including our boat's dinghy -- carry smaller gas cans and self-fuel routinely and openly. But that's why we're stuck. If the marina does follow past patterns though and doubles the street price at the gas dock, that's going to be a powerful incentive for "midnight refueling" for some boaters.

rslifkin said:

It definitely can be done. But ease of doing that definitely depends on where you are. In some places it's easy, in others there's either nowhere to do it, supplier availability concerns, may need to schedule too far in advance, etc.

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I’m trying to think where in the PNW you could dock near a road to fuel from a truck?

Very difficult in WA state. You need to find a dock that belongs to an entity that will allow fueling by truck. And you need to meet state and local rules for fueling by truck. Difficult to arrange unless you're in an area with no fuel docks. Best to find out which outfit is the local supplier to smaller businesses and buy from them.

Sent from my SM-A125U using Trawler Forum mobile app

Wifey B: My vote was from FLL North yesterday, 152 nm. Saturday will move on up the coast another 120 nm. Tuesday only 60 nm, Thursday of next week, into GA, 150 nm. And we shall continue up the coast.

Portage_Bay said:

Very difficult in WA state. You need to find a dock that belongs to an entity that will allow fueling by truck. And you need to meet state and local rules for fueling by truck. Difficult to arrange unless you're in an area with no fuel docks. Best to find out which outfit is the local supplier to smaller businesses and buy from them.

Sent from my SM-A125U using Trawler Forum mobile app

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This can be done in Bellingham, by Yorkston Fuel. You tie up to the Squalicum commercial dock near the crane, close to gate 3, and they hand you the hose. I'm not sure there is a significant savings doing this though. You don't pay road taxes on the diesel but you pay sales tax. Yorktown will also deliver to you if you are hauled out. The base price has always been a little less than the Bham fuel dock but how much I'm not sure. Yorkston will give you their price/gallon over the phone if you call them.

in the PNW, we found commercial docks receptive and significant savings. If you needed large quantities, they were the best choices.

BandB said:

Wifey B: My vote was from FLL North yesterday, 152 nm. Saturday will move on up the coast another 120 nm. Tuesday only 60 nm, Thursday of next week, into GA, 150 nm. And we shall continue up the coast.

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I just spent most of a week staying on a friends boat at City of Palm Beach Marina. Hot humid days. Nice marina. The cruising area though wasn’t that interesting compared to the PNW, at least for me, and admittedly my limited exposure. Great restaurants though, if not too formal. His 42’ HCB seemed better suited to the area than his bigger boat.

I figure in the miles I won't be driving in my car and truck, the insurance I won't be paying for the same car and truck (since I will suspend it while cruising for the year, away from home), and the shopping I won't be doing since I will be away from civilizations temptations on a daily basis.

It won't be a wash, but it won't be falling into a black hole of expenses either.

bowball said:

I just spent most of a week staying on a friends boat at City of Palm Beach Marina. Hot humid days. Nice marina. The cruising area though wasn’t that interesting compared to the PNW, at least for me, and admittedly my limited exposure. Great restaurants though, if not too formal. His 42’ HCB seemed better suited to the area than his bigger boat.

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Wifey B: South to FLL and Miami and Key West. North to Okeechobee and Stuart and Fort Pierce and Palm Coast and Canaveral and St. Augustine and Jacksonville and Savannah, East to the Bahamas and bazillions of gorgeous islands in crystal clear water and all in warmth and comfort. PNW is nice, but doubt you even got a taste of our cruising areas.

Regarding "Sail Boats", it's really not a sail boat unless it doesn't have an engine, because around here, "sail boats" are really power boats with big sticks since, from what I've observed, they are under power probably 90% of the time. . . . . .YMMV

The advantage of the typical "sail boat" is that you get to pay for regularly replacing standing rigging, sails, AND maintaining an engine as well. . . Oh, and only about 2/3rds the living space for the associated length as a power boat. No, I'm not a sail boat hater, I LOVE sailing! I just don't believe in deluding myself either . . . .

To me this is a matter of time and distance. You don't need to skip the experience by reducing the amount of distance you burn over a time period. Spend the same number of months cruising, simply don't go as far, as often. Stay in places longer than normal. Adjust your cruising to fit your fuel budget. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Shrew said:

To me this is a matter of time and distance. You don't need to skip the experience by reducing the amount of distance you burn over a time period. Spend the same number of months cruising, simply don't go as far, as often. Stay in places longer than normal. Adjust your cruising to fit your fuel budget. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

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Exactly this. And I figure there are so many places to go that we'll probably never get to them all, so worst case if one places becomes unfeasible due to fuel cost or other factors, we'll just go somewhere else instead and get back to the original plan some time in the future if/when we can.

Someone very wise once said, "Don't bitch about the price of matches when you're smoking cigars".

BandB said:

Wifey B: South to FLL and Miami and Key West. North to Okeechobee and Stuart and Fort Pierce and Palm Coast and Canaveral and St. Augustine and Jacksonville and Savannah, East to the Bahamas and bazillions of gorgeous islands in crystal clear water and all in warmth and comfort. PNW is nice, but doubt you even got a taste of our cruising areas.

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You are correct! Bahamas yes but guilty as charged! I can’t wait to experience it. I’m biased as I like the cold and big mountains! I’ll reach out when I start exploring there for your advice.

AKDoug said:

I figure in the miles I won't be driving in my car and truck, the insurance I won't be paying for the same car and truck...

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The wife and figure if we get a boat, and travel as we intend, we would use less than half the number of gallons of fuel we use if we stay at home. Add up the cost of vehicle property tax, registration fees, and maintenance costs we come out way ahead money wise.

We are really talking about ENERGY costs, so if we added the costs of powering the house, to the savings of having a boat and no home, it is more money saved.

The price I am seeing for road diesel has held steady this week at $5.00, $5.10, and $5.30 per US gallon. The $5.30 price is a real outlier. I think I was paying around $3.50 the last time I filled up so prices have gone up by about 32% which is a big percentage increase, but if we used 1,000 gallons that is "only" an extra $1,600. The question is, is that $1,600 spread over a year, season, month or week. Spread over a season it is not a big deal. If that is every week, well,. Flip side, if we had a boat that used 1,000 gallons a week, I suspect an extra $1,600 a week would not matter to us.

Later,
Dan

lwarden said:

Yes, but big oil is enjoying the current global situation to reap higher profits so it's unlikely prices will decline anytime soon. Refined fuel always goes up like a rocket and falls like a feather.

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"Big oil" doesn't really exist anymore. Big tech replaced it many years ago. The only company that is relatively big is Saudi Aramco, which is outside the influence of social media.

Getting tired of seeing the same distortions of reality.
I and 90%+ of my sailboat cruising friends use the engine only for getting in and out of a harbor. Even in the saragasso sea wait as given most carry 200g or less so want to keep as much in reserve as possible. If you are exclusively coastal and doing day hops the sailboats you see are doing the same. If this is in a light air region they maybe power sailing. If they just have a bare pole they aren’t sailors.
Sailboats are predominately made out of glass reinforced PLASTIC. Plastic is made from oil. Modern lines, blocks, sails, in fact just about everything involved in sailing comes from petrochemicals. Take a look at the cost escalation of any sailing kit and come back and tell me costs weren’t effected by Covid and aren’t being effected by oil costs. Unlike coastal daysailors running gear and sails are a ongoing expense.
All boating is discretionary expense. If it costs more for food and daily transportation there’s less in the cruising kitty. That’s true for all boaters.
Few are day traders or dealing in puts/shorts. If you’re retired and see your networth declining and inflation going up you’ll be less enthusiastic about buying ANY boat or upgrading your current one.
Although have no enthusiasm for anyone on either side of the red/blue seems Carter did one thing right in appointing Volker. Seems current fed learned that lesson that a transient amount of pain prevents demise. Gladdened to see the 1/4 point rise. Still suspect another bad year overall. B is on its way. Inflation will persist for awhile. Fuel will remain high. Markets will be volatile and may correct further. However it’s all transient. My time to age out isn’t.

We cruise for a week on what's in our 20 gal tank when we launch, one of the main reasons we chose a 40 yr old boat when we converted from sail 10 yrs ago.

Hippocampus said:

Getting tired of seeing the same distortions of reality.
I and 90%+ of my sailboat cruising friends use the engine only for getting in and out of a harbor. .

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Hippocampus, I don't think it is a distortion of reality, but rather the fact that you and your friends aren't the typical type of person I normally see who owns sailboats. You and your friends actually USE your boats!
Just like most power only boats, are really not power boats, because that would entail starting the engines occasionally and actually leaving the dock! They are just floating condo's, or just dashed dreams that the owners don't know what to do with anymore.
Our marina is a small marina with about 100 slips. I walked the docks yesterday, and I was able to remember a total of nine (9) of those boats who I have ever seen leaving the dock under their own power. (two additional ones were towed out and back) in the last 7 months. Most of the boats (both power and sail) are just dock queens, sitting at the dock, waiting to sink. One boat (4 boats away on the dock) has over a foot of marine growth on her, she's a, I believe, 34' CHB, and looks like she was a nice boat at some point, but according others in the marina, hasn't even been visited in the last 3 years or so. She's in covered moorage too. Not cheap. The boat next to her had a refit started about 5 years ago, and nothing done to her in the last 4 years. Sad, but true.
We've only put about 90 engine hours on our boat in the last 5 months because we're outfitting her, but that is still probably about 70 engine hours more than most owners put on their boats in an entire YEAR!