Interesting small trawlers

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Northern Spy said:
I think there is a grave misunderstanding between a coastal fishing boat and an offshore fishing boat.

Newfoundland has more coastal fishing boats than Norway without the benefit of the coastal archipelago.

What do you think of those vessels?
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Please send some sites by builders, or pics. Im familiar with the neaerby Nova Scotia yard, AF. Theriault, who have built some of the those really great Cape Horn trawlers. Apparently they can build anything you want.
 
Jarrow Lily said:
You guys obviosly have no idea about the sea conditions found around Iceland. The North Atlantic/North Sea in that area is serious stuff.
Icelanders have made a boat suitable for their conditions. Dissing the design after looking at a picture is perhaps premature.


My previous post re 'they are not leisure vessels' was to address specific points previously made re high freeboard, mooring lines etc.
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I do, have an idea. In fact we were also checking out the model Cleopatra 50, but its fg so rejected it.
 
Don't forget: just because they managed to make the short length / wide beam and other limitations work doesn't mean they're not compromised. I guarantee if you told the same designer and yard to build a boat without those limitations, they could build a functionally better boat.



As far as operating in the tougher parts of the world, heavy weather survival, etc. it doesn't really matter much what you build the boat from (unless ice is involved). It matters far more that the basic design is suitable and it's built strong enough.
 
rslifkin said:
Don't forget: just because they managed to make the short length / wide beam and other limitations work doesn't mean they're not compromised. I guarantee if you told the same designer and yard to build a boat without those limitations, they could build a functionally better boat.



As far as operating in the tougher parts of the world, heavy weather survival, etc. it doesn't really matter much what you build the boat from (unless ice is involved). It matters far more that the basic design is suitable and it's built strong enough.
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Those clever norwegians and other european builders swear they know about such things, and often advertise that their boats can be 'ice strengthened', 'artic class', Beaufort force 10,, etc. Some even have heated decks to prevent ice buildup. Double glazed heated safety windows. (One of their standards is to drop a 10kg iron ball on them fron 30' up.....3 times. Some europeans, and especially Norwegians know how to make strong boats.
 
JWellington said:
Those clever norwegians and other european builders swear they know about such things, and often advertise that their boats can be 'ice strengthened', 'artic class', Beaufort force 10,, etc. Some even have heated decks to prevent ice buildup. Double glazed heated safety windows. (One of their standards is to drop a 10kg iron ball on them fron 30' up.....3 times. Some europeans, and especially Norwegians know how to make strong boats.
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They can certainly do plenty of things to beef them up (as could most builders if they had a reason to). But building to the length limits and then going wide and tall for capacity still has its compromises. So if they made those same improvements to a boat with a more optimal shape, you'd have a better boat.
 
rslifkin said:
They can certainly do plenty of things to beef them up (as could most builders if they had a reason to). But building to the length limits and then going wide and tall for capacity still has its compromises. So if they made those same improvements to a boat with a more optimal shape, you'd have a better boat.
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Sure, always compromises. Some like shorter boats because theyre more manoeuverable in tight spaces. Others because many marinas charge by length. So pay less for a boat with as much interior capacity as a much longer one. Some like the looks, etc. Are cape horn conditions often more than beaufort 10? I dont think so.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Passage

The Drake Passage (referred to as Mar de Hoces ["Hoces Sea"] in Spain and other Spanish speaking countries) is the body of water between South America's Cape Horn, Chile and the South Shetland Islands of Antarctica. It connects the southwestern part of the Atlantic Ocean (Scotia Sea) with the southeastern part of the Pacific Ocean and extends into the Southern Ocean.


Drake Passage showing the boundary points A, B, C, D, E and F accorded by the Treaty of Peace and Friendship of 1984 between Chile and Argentina

Tourist expedition ship sailing across the Drake Passage to Antarctica

Depth profile with salinity and temperature for surface
The Drake Passage is considered one of the most treacherous voyages for ships to make. Currents at its latitude meet no resistance from any landmass, and waves top 40 feet (12 m), hence its reputation as "the most powerful convergence of seas".[1]

As the Drake Passage is the narrowest passage around Antarctica, its existence and shape strongly influence the circulation of water around Antarctica and the global oceanic circulation, as well as the global climate. The bathymetry of the Drake Passage plays an important role on the global mixing of oceanic water.
 
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Some one here needs to read a discussion about stability. As discussed on a prior thread specifically about the limitations of form stability. Without a basic understanding of how to read a Gz curve believe he will continue to post absurd comments. Comments about structural integrity have nothing to do with the basic physics of what makes a decent sea boat in extreme conditions. Yes you need a strong boat that will remain intact and functioning but without a favorable Gz curve it it will not survive. Yes, what Gz curve is suitable depends in part on size so what’s acceptable for a large ship is different (and in some ways easier to meet) than for a boat of <20m. The continued failure of that poster to not consider basic naval architectural principles makes further discussion pointless. For a boat of <20m personally would want to see an AVS >130 (ideally much greater) and a miniscule volume in the Gz curve when inverted or at angles >90. This would be difficult to achieve without a extreme righting arm due to extreme draft and much weight placed at or near that draft. That weight should be placed centrally to achieve an acceptable gyradius and sufficient reserve buoyancy in her ends as to not be overwhelmed.
The boats pictured above are highly specialized and most ingenious but in my humble opinion not suitable for cruising high lat even after conversion. In fact would suspect conversion to pleasure use would decrease their suitability. They were built to fish with highly skilled crews aboard. That is their mission. Period. They are not Southern Ocean boats. They were not designed for that purpose.
BTW there’s a whole lot of grp and CF boats that were built for the Southern Ocean. Other than British Steel not too many Fe RTW sailboats compete or successfuly complete those races. The fascination with steel seems misplaced. Would note most recent high lat designs for small boats are in Al. Yes Fe is an excellent material but due to weight requires compromises when considering small boats.
 
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I'll risk rounding the horn with beaufort 10 scale boat.
 

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Hippocampus said:
Some one here needs to read a discussion about stability. As discussed on a prior thread specifically about the limitations of form stability. Without a basic understanding of how to read a Gz curve believe he will continue to post absurd comments. Comments about structural integrity have nothing to do with the basic physics of what makes a decent sea boat in extreme conditions. Yes you need a strong boat that will remain intact and functioning but without a favorable Gz curve it it will not survive. Yes, what Gz curve is suitable depends in part on size so what’s acceptable for a large ship is different (and in some ways easier to meet) than for a boat of <20m. The continued failure of that poster to not consider basic naval architectural principles makes further discussion pointless. For a boat of <20m personally would want to see an AVS >130 (ideally much greater) and a miniscule volume in the Gz curve when inverted or at angles >90. This would be difficult to achieve without a extreme righting arm due to extreme draft and much weight placed at or near that draft. That weight should be placed centrally to achieve an acceptable gyradius and sufficient reserve buoyancy in her ends as to not be overwhelmed.
The boats pictured above are highly specialized and most ingenious but in my humble opinion not suitable for cruising high lat even after conversion. In fact would suspect conversion to pleasure use would decrease their suitability. They were built to fish with highly skilled crews aboard. That is their mission. Period. They are not Southern Ocean boats. They were not designed for that purpose.
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Fair enough, but these companies dont tell us what their Gz curve is. So the closer one gets in their research, one could ask them about it. Some do mention that they are self-righting though. Thus if one is too top heavy and only recommended for mill ponds, I wont buy. But if they say they conform to all those class scales, and designed for force 10, what more can one do? Europeans make some very interesting boats, many of them unkown to the average american.
 
Beam vs Ballast for Stability

ON ROLL MOTION...
BEAM
Increased beam definitely does not provide increased comfort. Increased beam also does not provide increased safety, or what we would call "seakeeping" ability... Consider the following...

A relatively light weight vessel with a wide waterplane will naturally have a very active roll behavior on the water. In other words, such a vessel will react to the shape of the water's surface very readily. This describes the majority of semi-displacement vessels and virtually all planing vessels. Adding ballast or making the water plane wider will only result in a more "harsh" roll motion, meaning greater roll accelerations.

While fairly wide beam is generally beneficial to a true planing vessel, with displacement or semi-displacement types adding excessive beam or ballast will only serve to degrade performance due to increased displacement and wave making.

Roll accelerations are well documented as being the primary culprit inducing seasickness. In general we observe that while greater beam will provide less roll angle, greater beam will also provide much more harsh, rapid, aggressive roll accelerations. Other factors being equal, stiffness (initial stability) varies as the cube of the beam. In other words, small changes in beam have a dramatic effect.

We conclude from this that widening the water plane (increasing beam) will increase stiffness, but will at the same time reduce comfort and degrade seakindliness.
 
Looks like it would yaw terribly in a quartering sea.
I'm no engineer, but if a design doesn't look right, it's probably not.
 
JW what many participants here object too is the presumption that they aren’t experienced or knowledgeable. Many of my friends are American. Many are voyaging on boats from NL,NZ, France, Poland, Turkey etc. I’ve personally owned and voyaged on British, mainland China, and US. Crewed on boats from all continents including Africa (South Africa builds some mighty fine vessels). Everyone fellow member of OCC or voyager I know does not have the limited view you think we have. All look at their cruising program. All look at the ENTIRE WORLD when contemplating new construction or new to them purchase. This bias is not congruent to reality.
Look at TT, PS, circumnavigator and many others here. These aren’t stupid people nor inexperienced. Many here have been there done that so object to the level of hubris shown. I read and respect their knowledge and experience. Think there’s much to learn from them. That won’t happen if you take the adversarial attitude you have in the past. Peace.
 
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JW please read Kasten as referred to by PS. Also “Desirable and Undesirable…. “
https://sas.cruisingclub.org/node/78. Anything from reputable NAs particularly Nigel Irons who has designed extremely capable boats dependent upon form stability (multihulls) might expand your thinking
. Perhaps crew has no idea about Gz curves but owner and insurer probably has a real good idea about all aspects of seaworthiness and appropriate cruising grounds. Of course you need to look at all aspects of the vessel not just Gz. Seems recurrently these threads are like the 5 blind men discussing an elephant.
 
Hippocampus said:
JW please read Kasten as referred to by PS. Also “Desirable and Undesirable…. “
https://sas.cruisingclub.org/node/78. Anything from reputable NAs particularly Nigel Irons who has designed extremely capable boats dependent upon form stability (multihulls) might expand your thinking
. Perhaps crew has no idea about Gz curves but owner and insurer probably has a real good idea about all aspects of seaworthiness and appropriate cruising grounds. Of course you need to look at all aspects of the vessel not just Gz. Seems recurrently these threads are like the 5 blind men discussing an elephant.
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We almost never see guys here discuss the Gz of their boats. But ill make a point of asking the builders for my next one.
 
IronZebra said:
Since the title is plural I figured yall were discussing a few different types of small trawlers.

I saw this one recently on YW. It is a 2016 Aluminum Trawler/Motorsailer, 28ft, gaff rigged cutter, 60 hp diesel. Looks very well priced.

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2016-custom-trawler-7341270/
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Shoot, I kinda like that. The small size makes the pilothouse height a little out of proportion, wonder what it would look like at say 34'.

We should keep the thread going with other examples of small trawlers - the Interesting Boats thread seems to gravitate towards 50 or 60'+, too big for a lot of needs.
 
We saw one of this type (little longer around 14/15 m) in Goteborg.
She was for sale from long time, particulary heavy, not nice, not very efficient AND very expansive. Unfortunatly forgot the name...
 
Seems like they do research on these boats. Bet they know the Gz ratings too!
 

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long-cours.62 said:
We saw one of this type (little longer around 14/15 m) in Goteborg.
She was for sale from long time, particulary heavy, not nice, not very efficient AND very expansive. Unfortunatly forgot the name...
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Sure, better quality boats cost more. Look how we see 20 year old Dashew boats still costing 2 million$.
 
The efficiency thing is a big point. Even if it's stable, sturdy, etc. the short, fat boat will be less efficient than a longer, narrower one (assuming both displacement hulls).
 
rslifkin said:
The efficiency thing is a big point. Even if it's stable, sturdy, etc. the short, fat boat will be less efficient than a longer, narrower one (assuming both displacement hulls).
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Yes, but its NOT the main point for some, or even a big point. In fact for those who it is, those builders who are doing hybrid boats now, as many of them are, they report savings of, commonly, 25-35% over straght diesel. Then too, many of these are aluminum instead of steel, so more savings. Then too, some are happy with slow speeds, like 5kts, so more savings, for those concerned.
 

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They are not happy with slow speeds, that's about all they can do.
 
Come on guys......"rounding the horn" ??? Seriously ?? Is that the standard we are going to use for if a vessel is sufficiently seaworthy ????

I would bet that 90% of the forum members have never been in 10-15 foot seas, and for good reason. Those conditions should be avoided. Even if your boat can handle it, your crew is probably flying home from the next port.

Do we expect our cars to be able to complete the Baja 1000 ????

There are lots of fine boats that are plenty seaworthy that only a fool would take to higher lattitudes.

CE ratings are an interesting way to compare boats and probably a lot more practical than can you round the horn in it.
 
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