Teak Re-Varnishing

We have just had a 12-coat re-work on the perimeter teak rails. Nice job, but they did not remove the sealant at joints and handrail supports, just varnished over the existing sealant. I question if this is proper, thinking it better to remove the sealant, varnish down the sides of the wood, then seal the varnish-to-varnish joints and varnish-to-handrail support joints with new sealant.

Very interested in any advice, and thanks,

Scott & Nancy

I don’t think that is proper. The varnish will probably fail at the junction of the sealer since the wood and sealer will likely expand and contract at different rates. I would have removed the sealant, varnished and then recaulked. That way the varnish won’t crack and let water in under the varnish. Once you get water under the varnish it will keep moving along the grain and maybe even darken the teak there. Our last boat had a lot of exterior teak and I got tired of redoing it so I stripped it back to bare teak and painted white. Loved how it looked and the maintenance was gone.

Scott Barnard said:

We have just had a 12-coat re-work on the perimeter teak rails. Nice job, but they did not remove the sealant at joints and handrail supports, just varnished over the existing sealant. I question if this is proper, thinking it better to remove the sealant, varnish down the sides of the wood, then seal the varnish-to-varnish joints and varnish-to-handrail support joints with new sealant.

Very interested in any advice, and thanks,

Scott & Nancy

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Absolutely do not pay that bill. The proper way is to remove all caulking, varnish, then caulk. Otherwise water will get in between and ruin in no time. I saw someone pay $12k for a varnish job of their cap rails and that is exactly what happened a year later.

Also, look into awlwood, instead of varnish.

I have made it a habit to require anyone working on my boat present their insurance before touching it. I verify it.

They did the right thing.
Your boat was finished at the factory; bare wood , sealant, then varnish over the sealed joints etc.
Sealant needs to bond to bare wood for proper expansion and contraction and movement. Varnish is brittle and goes over top of this.
Sealant won’t bond to wood coated with varnish.
It will allow more water intrusion and cause problems.

Alwood is a good idea. Great stuff . I use Epifanes clear varnish. Works well.
Bottom line , great varnish always needs TLC .
I put a yearly coat on mine .
Joints are always problematic. you will find some joints are worse than others for some reason.
Bottom line , they did the right thing.

Cleanslate said:

They did the right thing.
Your boat was finished at the factory; bare wood , sealant, then varnish over the sealed joints etc.
Sealant needs to bond to bare wood for proper expansion and contraction and movement. Varnish is brittle and goes over top of this.
Sealant won’t bond to wood coated with varnish.
It will allow more water intrusion and cause problems.

Alwood is a good idea. Great stuff . I use Epifanes clear varnish. Works well.
Bottom line , great varnish always needs TLC .
I put a yearly coat on mine .
Joints are always problematic. you will find some joints are worse than others for some reason.
Bottom line , they did the right thing.

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Interesting. Beneteau doesn't varnish at the factory AFAIK. Further Akzonobel who makes Awlwood specifically told me caulk gets removed, everything gets painted, once done fresh caulk gets added.

So who is right? You are saying the maker of Awlwood is providing bad instructions?

So the OPs Boat , varnish in question was painted at the factory?
Then someone decided to strip all the paint and varnish it?
Sounds like it’s got varnish now.
I highly doubt that it was painted stripped and then varnished.
Evidently this one came with varnished teak trim.

Boat builders do all kinds of stuff overtime on their various builds.


I am not an Alwood user but will be one day once I completely stripped all my one part varnish off the boat. I like what I’ve heard about it.
I have read their instructions doesn’t talk about removing all sealent out of the wood that I remember just the old varnish that was applied.

Cleanslate said:

So the OPs Boat , varnish in question was painted at the factory?
Then someone decided to strip all the paint and varnish it?
Sounds like it’s got varnish now.
I highly doubt that it was painted stripped and then varnished.
Evidently this one came with varnished teak trim.

Boat builders do all kinds of stuff overtime on their various builds.


I am not an Alwood user but will be one day once I completely stripped all my one part varnish off the boat. I like what I’ve heard about it.
I have read their instructions doesn’t talk about removing all sealent out of the wood that I remember just the old varnish that was applied.

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Again, I dont think Beneteau varnishes at the factory.

If there was nothing wrong with the existing sealant why would you remove? If the sealant has had reasonable UV protection via existing paint or varnish probably nothing wrong with it. Especially at 8 years old.

I would tape off the joint and put a coat of black urethane over it.

If you used Awlwood, the urethane will adhere very well and seal the joint water tight. Looks good too.

I saw this done on a brand new Flemming.

Any tips/tricks to remove the black caulking/sealing?

boater3 said:

Any tips/tricks to remove the black caulking/sealing?

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sandpaper?

Since starting the varnish project on my boat in 1994, I have tried many things.
Varnish over sealant v sealant over varnish is one I have tried. some success both ways, some failures both ways. The failures seem to occur when the two pieces of wood move wrt each other, regardless of sealant status. Where the wood is stable, success.

It kinda depends on the sealant used. The Last time I redid our teak in the joints and corners I filled them with GX6 West system epoxy. Then I cover over it with honey teak unfortunately its no longer made this has lasted about 20 years. Be careful when paying for your teak to be done. I know of a contractor that does teak and they thin down their varnish to the point the bright work has to be redone every 4 to 6 months. They used to do our teak till they got mad and refused to talk to us when we changed over to honey teak. This same person brags about how they have made their living off of several boats at the marina.

OK, a lot of pros and cons both ways, good but still in limbo here. I can't help but think if the multiple coats of varnish go down the two sides of the joints (between wood and wood which is common on ST44s) that integrity is consistent to well below the top surface, then the sealant engages to that surface on a longer dimension, i.e. from the top down a good ways. Alternative is the top of sealant (existing) and wood (sanded down) are eqaul, then the varnish goes over both. The dimension between the edge of the wood and the sealant is miniscule, i.e. not multiple layers of varnish but next to none. The weak joint is between the top of the wood, the top of the sealant (existing), and the varnish going over both. Seems the varnish over the sealant will be expanding and contracting too much, and fail.

Scott Barnard said:

OK, a lot of pros and cons both ways, good but still in limbo here. I can't help but think if the multiple coats of varnish go down the two sides of the joints (between wood and wood which is common on ST44s) that integrity is consistent to well below the top surface, then the sealant engages to that surface on a longer dimension, i.e. from the top down a good ways. Alternative is the top of sealant (existing) and wood (sanded down) are eqaul, then the varnish goes over both. The dimension between the edge of the wood and the sealant is miniscule, i.e. not multiple layers of varnish but next to none. The weak joint is between the top of the wood, the top of the sealant (existing), and the varnish going over both. Seems the varnish over the sealant will be expanding and contracting too much, and fail.

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yes, the expanding and contracting would not help. again, i posted right from the manufacturers of awlwood how they say to do it. i dont know why varnish would be done any different than awlwood. i watch workers at my marina constantly varnishing the same boats and perhaps if it was just done correctly from the get go it would last longer.

boater3 said:

Interesting. Beneteau doesn't varnish at the factory AFAIK. Further Akzonobel who makes Awlwood specifically told me caulk gets removed, everything gets painted, once done fresh caulk gets added.

So who is right? You are saying the maker of Awlwood is providing bad instructions?

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They told you, great, is this in writing anywhere? I cannot find anything about the sealant joints in the installation instructions which are published online. Finding such would be helpful in our 'dispute'.

Scott Barnard said:

They told you, great, is this in writing anywhere? I cannot find anything about the sealant joints in the installation instructions which are published online. Finding such would be helpful in our 'dispute'.

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They emailed me it as a response. I will PM you a contact.

response from AwlGrip

"The ideal situation would be to remove the sealant in the joints prior to application, and reapply the sealant/caulking after the varnish has cured.

Removing the stainless steel stanchion bases is also the best practice.

This allows the varnish system to attach to the wood and any holes in the varnish (for fasteners etc) are under the fitting and sealed up."

This settles it for me ...

Scott Barnard said:

"The ideal situation would be to remove the sealant in the joints prior to application, and reapply the sealant/caulking after the varnish has cured.

Removing the stainless steel stanchion bases is also the best practice.

This allows the varnish system to attach to the wood and any holes in the varnish (for fasteners etc) are under the fitting and sealed up."

This settles it for me ...

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yes, for awlwood, which can last a very long time.

i dont know anything about varnish, but no reason to believe varnish application would be any different from awl wood? the concept is the same, right?

Also this quote from Epifanes:

"Yes, it is best to remove sealants when redoing varnish. If you are just doing maintenance coats then it is not necessary."

Seems we have consensus.

Scott Barnard said:

Also this quote from Epifanes:

"Yes, it is best to remove sealants when redoing varnish. If you are just doing maintenance coats then it is not necessary."

Seems we have consensus.

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Yeah, maintenance coats you can probably get away without it but not ideal.

I like Epifanes, using it for many years, on interior woodwork.

I wouldn't do exterior teak with anything but Semco.

To each his own!

A note, Awlgrip is not Awlwood.

Awlgrip is a dual stage paint.
Awlwood is a two step coating.

You encapsulate the teak with Awlwood. First a primer epoxy coat that can be tinted to anything you want. After that you add clear coats for depth. It goes on thick, and is water clear. Crazy clear that is like the teak is embedded in glass.

It is very hard and can be buffed.

It shows every screw up you make, so bring your A game. I am going on four years with no touch ups in Texas and Florida.

I have sprayed it multiple times.

Go to grandbankschoices and dig around for the write up.

Choices said:

A note, Awlgrip is not Awlwood.

Awlgrip is a dual stage paint.
Awlwood is a two step coating.

You encapsulate the teak with Awlwood. First a primer epoxy coat that can be tinted to anything you want. After that you add clear coats for depth. It goes on thick, and is water clear. Crazy clear that is like the teak is embedded in glass.

It is very hard and can be buffed.

It shows every screw up you make, so bring your A game. I am going on four years with no touch ups in Texas and Florida.

I have sprayed it multiple times.

Go to grandbankschoices and dig around for the write up.

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What do you mean by you have it sprayed

I have sprayed it.

For parts I can remove and take home, doors, flag staffs, name boards, etc., I brush coat then spray last couple coats to get perfectly smooth.

You do thin it to spray it.

Choices said:

I have sprayed it.

For parts I can remove and take home, doors, flag staffs, name boards, etc., I brush coat then spray last couple coats to get perfectly smooth.

You do thin it to spray it.

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Never even realized that is an option, wow.

I can see it making a mess though doing it on a boat, especially in the water, and subject to wind..

I started out a few years ago with Interlux Compas Clear, then moved to Interlux Pefection Plus (Two part system). I am not playing with Awlwood. I bought all the stuff to spray it, but chicked out and brushed it out. Its not as easy as Compass Clear, but man it looks good when you get it right !

Varnish, varnish, varnish…!
Bottom line , no matter what you use.
Gotta start with some nice clean bare $&@$ sanded wood !
Right?
Then let the games begin.
I’m sealing my bare wood joints and gaps before I varnish.
Sealant needs something to hold to. Sealant won’t hold well to varnished wood and is butt ugly and dull. Tends to get chalky too.
I like shiny varnish over my goo.
I do have a trick; on bare wood I start with Z Spar Captains varnish.
I double coat that between sanding .
So in a weekend I can get 4 to 6 coats on .
Then follow up with 3 or 4 coats of Epifanes clear gloss. Smooth and shinny ! Just like my hi-nee!
Then one maintenance coat a year after that.
Any joints or spots that start to lift or what ever over time , I carefully scrape the lifted area to the bare wood then sand it back to the good area normally no more than two or 3 inches either way from the lifted area and build back varnish in that specific spot. I finish off with a final good sand making the newly varnished area level with the previous varnished area and put a final coat over all of that from end to end . Good as new . No need to strip the whole thing down.

I would really like to switch over to Alwood . I’m sold .
But I don’t have the time to strip all my wood work and start over again!
To much other stuff to do on my old tub.
So I’m maintaining. Holing what I’ve got for now . Ya feel me ?

To the OP, I think you will find you will be hard pressed to find a contractor/ yard that will poke, pull , and prod that sealant out.
Have you ever tried to pull sealant out that has a good bond?
I would not be surprised that it would bring some of the woodwork with it when they go to raking it and pulling it out.
That’s why they varnish over it.

Different story if it’s already falling out chalky and brittle then you need to pull it all out and completely start over. And seal with new fist… lol.

Jen Poly foam brush….it’s the only way to go. Not the Chinese foam junk …FYI.

If it were my project, either through contract or being my personal craft, if the joints were not showing signs of being jeopardized, I would varnish over. However, if there were signs of relatively recent water intrusion, I would examine the joint and determine the best approach so that the "fix" would have reasonable longevity.