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Hull 51 going with Garmin

Hi Rick, Mr. Helmsman and all.

Rick, I am officially going with Garmin. I called product support on an issue with my In-reach which they never saw before and got solved after spending an hour on that, he passed me to his bud in Marine which then reviewed my list of my 38E Garmin products and sent a 2-page dissertation about it the next day. These are guys in tech support - not sales. I will forward that to you in email. I compared your list to mine looks like he suggested a few things on your list that wasnt on mine and also got into some cable selections etc other details. There were a few things he said I didn’t need.. I think you will find it interesting and build your confidence, and maybe change something or not.

While I am a promotor for Garmin In-reach, saved our butts a few times, it's not a real Garmin touch and feel/ menu etc. I saw you are leaning to a mini or Explorer +. These were grandfathered in from a previous company so you might want to look at the Montana series. Its more "garmin" developed within. Might be more $$ and honestly, I have not studied it. I did my complaints on what I had in hand, he suggested that I look at the Montana series. Again, it's a tool and it saved us a few times, and I dont go anywhere without it. But it's just a tiny bit clunky, so if they have something newer, take a look at it. Bottom line, if your going up the inside, you need something. VHF wont work.

I am also going with the Vesper setup, they sold me on it since I have two handheld VHF backups..

For those who wont have VHF or Cell coverage in remote areas, aside from satellite transponders (ie Garmin In-reach which gives a very top level forecast)

Is anyone considering any kind of weather instruments?

They recommended this -
GXM 54 SiriusXM antenna for weather $799.99 (weather package is extra per month from SiriusXM)

I have very little knowledge on this solution and Garmin’s site doesn’t have a good promotional video or anything.

One more on Garmin - he also suggested Garmin USB Card Reader $99.99 (SD card slots are on the back of the 8616 units, hard to access when dash mounted) this will mount on the dash for easy use (like a 12v power plug in cars now). Youd think he should just send me one for free?

Lastly, one a sentence or two, can anyone tell me why Satellite Compass is needed? I don’t know the application of driving a boat at 7 knots what this level of precision buys me?

Again - thanks for all the input everyone. It really helps!
 
I am not sure about the satellite compass that Garmin provides but the SCX20 from Furuno is superior to a normal GPS sensor, because it is receiving information from more satellites, it provides pitch and yaw for information for your AP (reported by analysts and marketed by Furuno) and the radar stabilizes to the chart, so in rougher seas the radar overlay does not move off of the chart it is supporting.

I can’t speak to the weather instrument other than have heard the Sirius weather isn’t all that useful. That is east coast folks reporting that, where you are seldom out of cell range. Many folks on the forums I engage with who are traveling the rivers, gulf, and east coast subscribe to a couple or three internet weather apps for their info.

I would like to see the analysis you received from Garmin also.
 
Helmsman said:
I am not sure about the satellite compass that Garmin provides but the SCX20 from Furuno is superior to a normal GPS sensor, because it is receiving information from more satellites, it provides pitch and yaw for information for your AP (reported by analysts and marketed by Furuno) and the radar stabilizes to the chart, so in rougher seas the radar overlay does not move off of the chart it is supporting.
Click to expand...


To add to that, a satellite compass won't be affected by moving metal or magnetic objects around on the boat and doesn't need the same kind of calibration as a more basic fluxgate heading sensor does.
 
electronics - 95% done, on order

Hi, our electronics is now on order.

The only thing I think is missing is cell/networking and something for weather. Seriously looking at Sirius XM marine weather.

Thanks for the help from everyone.
Anything awry, let me know.
Now back off to remote camping in Baja - back on-line when we can.

Hull and deck are underway!

Tom

PS: Just added in another fixed VHF. IC-M422 VHF Marine Transceiver. This is a very simply easy to use. If we get in trouble and a guest needs to use a VHF, it's there for them.
 

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I don't know the Garmin lineup well, but it sure appears to be pretty comprehensive.

You have a windspeed indicator in the specs. Curious about your thoughts on that, on a trawler vs sailboat?

Second, there is some urban legend chat that Garmin doesn't play well with non-Garmin autopilot gear. Something about how the turn calculations within the MFD need a Garmin autopilot to work with the turn smoothing calculations and signals. Truth? Old truth that is no longer true? Just throwing that out there in case there is any current relevance.
 
FWT said:
You have a windspeed indicator in the specs. Curious about your thoughts on that, on a trawler vs sailboat?
Click to expand...


I'd say it's less necessary on a trawler, but particularly for anchoring, it's a nice to have. I've debated adding one to my boat, it just hasn't made it to the top of the "things to spend money on" list.
 
I decided on a wind indictor that is not a sailboat pointed device but a motionless one works off of pressure. https://inmatechcorp.com/simrad-120wx-weather-station-p59.

Use it for docking, anchoring or other tight locations where you see no flags, trees. The 38 is a heavy vessel but we could get some windage/sail out of the bridge height etc.
 
Wind speed would be nice to have but really not necessary I think. Like if a storm blows through your anchorage, it would be nice to say that you had 50 mph gusts with no issues, but what would you do with that info? At the time it is happening, not sure you would do anything to react to it.
 
backinblue said:
Wind speed would be nice to have but really not necessary I think. Like if a storm blows through your anchorage, it would be nice to say that you had 50 mph gusts with no issues, but what would you do with that info? At the time it is happening, not sure you would do anything to react to it.
Click to expand...


When entering or exiting a marina, docking, anchoring in crowded anchorages, and so on—anywhere where I am moving slowly through restricted space—I want to know wind strength and direction. I suspect that most folks who come to trawlers from a sailing background would feel the same.
 
backinblue said:
Wind speed would be nice to have but really not necessary I think. Like if a storm blows through your anchorage, it would be nice to say that you had 50 mph gusts with no issues, but what would you do with that info? At the time it is happening, not sure you would do anything to react to it.
Click to expand...

It's a nice to have. Large vessels with flybridges get windage. While I have bow and stern thrusters, I also have a tight slip at our home port. It would be good to know the wind speed and direction as I'm making a 90 degree turn and backing it in. In the Inside Passage in PNW there are occasions when we anchor in steep deep fiords and need to stern tie to shore. The winds can become strong and fluky in the fiords. We also get wind upon waves, so it would be good to understand if its wind or current causing the action.

Aside from that I grew up as a sailor.
 
FWT said:
Second, there is some urban legend chat that Garmin doesn't play well with non-Garmin autopilot gear. Something about how the turn calculations within the MFD need a Garmin autopilot to work with the turn smoothing calculations and signals. Truth? Old truth that is no longer true? Just throwing that out there in case there is any current relevance.
Click to expand...

Just a general comment first. While Furuno makes every effort to play nicely with everyone on everything, Garmin isn't in the business of caring about integrating with competitors. Their intent is to sell full packages.

I think Furuno's attitude comes more from being so heavy in commercial applications where proprietary systems and not integrating well just wouldn't be accepted. Garmin comes from recreational and feels it's best to control everything.

I find nothing wrong with that necessarily. You can't be expected to figure out perfect interfaces for everyone's equipment, especially when you don't even have access to their software and code. We had Garmin on our Sunseeker, were very happy with it in spite being Furuno users and fans, and would recommend that anyone going Garmin, go Garmin all the way.

I will add from talks I've had with someone employed by another brand. "We don't consider Furuno a competitor as much as a friend in the industry, but we do consider Garmin a competitor and not a friendly one. We would never share information with them. We're not about to make integration easier for them as providing the information necessary gives them more information on our systems and our code."

I would say with Garmin or Simrad go all the way. There was a time, Simrad was the leader in Autopilots and most others integrated without a problem. But Navico (owner or Simrad, Lowrance, B&G, Cmap) and Garmin are not friends. And now that Brunswick has purchased Navico, don't expect it to get friendlier. Don't expect to see Garmin on Sea-Ray anytime soon.

Another example, Furuno still integrates well with FLIR, even with FLIR owning Raymarine. Does it surprise you that Garmin uses their own product instead?

Garmin has an excellent complete package. To try to piece competitor products in would be a mistake. I'd recommend to someone wanting to go to Garmin but having a Simrad autopilot they want to keep, to rethink things. May be fine today, but long term you will end up with a problem, a lot of finger pointing, and no solution.

This is the software world. Does Microsoft play friendly? Does Apple?
 
I’m more anti Garmin, but to be fair that was driven by my experience with them in avionics. I so missed the old quality King radio stack. I will say they helped push integration forward though. I was very happy to have what I thought was a better solution with Furuno’s latest MFD’s which are being installed now. I agree it’s best to stay with one manufacturer where possible.
 
Tom-Jill-Lilly said:
It's a nice to have. Large vessels with flybridges get windage. While I have bow and stern thrusters, I also have a tight slip at our home port. It would be good to know the wind speed and direction as I'm making a 90 degree turn and backing it in. In the Inside Passage in PNW there are occasions when we anchor in steep deep fiords and need to stern tie to shore. The winds can become strong and fluky in the fiords. We also get wind upon waves, so it would be good to understand if its wind or current causing the action.

Aside from that I grew up as a sailor.
Click to expand...

I have a similar docking situation and also a former sailor. That said, I don't know that an instrument would help me much. Especially when approaching a marina, there are plenty of indications of wind direction from flags, etc. as well as looking at a wind vane on the mast of any nearby sailboat. As for speed, you should be able to tell if it's blowing 10 knts vs. 20 vs. 30. I don't know what I would do with the info that the exact speed is 12.3 knts for instance. Not criticizing and I wouldn't mind having the data, just not sure that it's very useful. You still have to deal with the conditions, the precise numbers wouldn't help me.
 
Tom-Jill-Lilly said:
It's a nice to have. Large vessels with flybridges get windage. While I have bow and stern thrusters, I also have a tight slip at our home port. It would be good to know the wind speed and direction as I'm making a 90 degree turn and backing it in. In the Inside Passage in PNW there are occasions when we anchor in steep deep fiords and need to stern tie to shore. The winds can become strong and fluky in the fiords. We also get wind upon waves, so it would be good to understand if its wind or current causing the action.

Aside from that I grew up as a sailor.
Click to expand...

It’s not necessary. Learn to read all the tells of wind (and currents)

I’ve flown hundreds of hours in my seaplane to all those places in the PNW and nothing is more sensitive to the wind than the big tail on a DeHavilland Beaver - and with a 48’ wing span, no effective water rudders and no reverse very limited one shot placements Pull the power and the plane will instantly weather vane into the wind. Have osier on, better have the controls situated so the wind won’t get under that wing to flip the plane.

And no instruments showing wind direction except a piece of yarn we would sometimes tape on the windshield.

So I think it’s overkill. Just look at flags, where the boats anchored are pointing (be careful they don’t have a stern anchor and or affected by current), the cup formed by the wind on the water surface.

And remember if you can’t figure it out through obviousness the wind won’t affect you enough to worry about.
 
Many valid opinions here so I am going to join in. I too want the type of information that the 220WX Weather Station provides:

Apparent wind and direction
True Wind and direction
Air temperature
Barometric pressure
Relative Humidity
etc.

I am interested in knowing all of these things (the reason I have a weather station at my house). I always want more data, not less.

When I went from a sailboat to doing the Great Loop in a power boat I put a Davis Windex on my burgee pole and looked at it often (got some strange looks though).

Just another 2 cents ;)
 
Nancy and Rick said:
Many valid opinions here so I am going to join in. I too want the type of information that the 220WX Weather Station provides:

Apparent wind and direction
True Wind and direction
Air temperature
Barometric pressure
Relative Humidity
etc.

I am interested in knowing all of these things (the reason I have a weather station at my house). I always want more data, not less.

When I went from a sailboat to doing the Great Loop in a power boat I put a Davis Windex on my burgee pole and looked at it often (got some strange looks though).

Just another 2 cents ;)
Click to expand...

To be candid, I would too, just because it’s fun to know as well! I just don’t think necessary for docking. Everything doesn’t need a rationalization! Do it!
 
bowball said:
To be candid, I would too, just because it’s fun to know as well! I just don’t think necessary for docking. Everything doesn’t need a rationalization! Do it!
Click to expand...

I agree and just because one person isn't interested is no reason to criticize another's choice to have it.
 
BandB said:
Just a general comment first. While Furuno makes every effort to play nicely with everyone on everything, Garmin isn't in the business of caring about integrating with competitors. Their intent is to sell full packages.

I think Furuno's attitude comes more from being so heavy in commercial applications where proprietary systems and not integrating well just wouldn't be accepted. Garmin comes from recreational and feels it's best to control everything.

I find nothing wrong with that necessarily. You can't be expected to figure out perfect interfaces for everyone's equipment, especially when you don't even have access to their software and code. We had Garmin on our Sunseeker, were very happy with it in spite being Furuno users and fans, and would recommend that anyone going Garmin, go Garmin all the way.

I will add from talks I've had with someone employed by another brand. "We don't consider Furuno a competitor as much as a friend in the industry, but we do consider Garmin a competitor and not a friendly one. We would never share information with them. We're not about to make integration easier for them as providing the information necessary gives them more information on our systems and our code."

I would say with Garmin or Simrad go all the way. There was a time, Simrad was the leader in Autopilots and most others integrated without a problem. But Navico (owner or Simrad, Lowrance, B&G, Cmap) and Garmin are not friends. And now that Brunswick has purchased Navico, don't expect it to get friendlier. Don't expect to see Garmin on Sea-Ray anytime soon.

Another example, Furuno still integrates well with FLIR, even with FLIR owning Raymarine. Does it surprise you that Garmin uses their own product instead?

Garmin has an excellent complete package. To try to piece competitor products in would be a mistake. I'd recommend to someone wanting to go to Garmin but having a Simrad autopilot they want to keep, to rethink things. May be fine today, but long term you will end up with a problem, a lot of finger pointing, and no solution.

This is the software world. Does Microsoft play friendly? Does Apple?
Click to expand...

Good info. Tom’s setup is all Garmin with the exception of using a Simrad pump and the wind indicator. At least in his case, that should not be a problem for him. I agree completely on Garmin’s business model, and is one of the reasons I wouldn’t do a new install with them. It has more to do with a life long approach of not wanting any company to have any control over future decisions. The ease of use of the TZ3 MFD is another as well as the support Furuno has shown it’s customers over the long haul.

Having said that, it appears, if there is enough customer appetite, that digital switching, and the large communication pipe represented by OneNet portends some real change in the industry. I see the Vesper Cortex as a harbinger of that. A combination AIS, VHF, monitoring system, and anchor alarm with a display tied into the handheld radio is a home run, even with Garmin owning them now. Another example is the Victron Cerbo GX, being able to report electrical health. I can see combo satellite compasses, radar units, TV satellites, and GPS’s all in one. MFD’s with the power to handle video feeds, and combine those with radar, AIS messages, Night cameras, etc, to paint a virtual daylight picture while running at night. I also believe we will see an acceleration in this tech in the next couple of years.
 
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FWT; Second said:
That is an absolute truth on my boat with Garmin GPS and Simrad autopilot. Electronics are approaching 10 years old so I don't know if that's still true with brand new electronics. A/P will track to a waypoint but won't follow a course that the GPS generates for you.

Regarding the wind instrument, I was expressing an opinion that was solicited. I don't think my comments or anyone else's were criticism. I'd love to have one and enjoy all things weather-related, I just see it as being necessary or particularly useful. If I was spec-ing out a new electronics package for a new boat, I'd probably include it. Why not?
Click to expand...
 
FWT said:
Indeed

The cost of the Trac antennas is significant. I had already been about decided to not go there and instead just await Starlink. Seems like that plan just gets better with each new tidbit of news.
Click to expand...

In order to have momma on the boat, we will need some access to TV, and with the ridiculous cost of cellular access, it still makes sense for me. If it were just me, then I wouldn’t put a tracvision up.
 
Reporting back on SirusXM if anyone is intertested.

I'm sold on what they offer, if anyone is interested in weather, I finally found a few youtubes including details from Sirius website with videos.

The reservation I have on this is showing all the vids on the east coast, I can only assume it works where they advertise it works in full coverage in the PNW. I may call them tomorrow.

This will give me weather overlay for:
Real time and forecasting
Wind – direction and speed
Waves height - feet
Wave intervals - seconds
Iso bars
Clouds – worthless
Sea temps – worthless, unless I’m chartering to go Tina fishing.
Eco tops – not sure of it’s value
Populated forecasts – would be good to see
Lighting – not an issue in PNW
Precipitation – “radar”
Buoy actual data – good to get
Storm tracking with smaller cells within storms – May not apply in PNW
Watch box – Weather warnings..
Local weather, click on your screen, gives you the forecast at nearest data location
Marine zones forecast – this would be awesome if it works in PNW – actually even if I had VHF working I don’t have to super focus on some crappy 8-track recording. I don’t have the attention span to figure out the area names and which one is mine.​
If you want more information, you can get screen shots from the videos and use of the data here (you can click on garmin, simrad.. or whatever system):

https://siriusxmcommunications.com/marinevideo/default.aspx?id=Garmin

Tom
 
Helmsman said:
In order to have momma on the boat, we will need some access to TV, and with the ridiculous cost of cellular access, it still makes sense for me. If it were just me, then I wouldn’t put a tracvision up.
Click to expand...

Yep. As they say, if Mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody gonna be happy.

Same issue here.

I question whether Mama will be too happy with Trac. And less happy when I dump an expensive Trac to improve with Starlink. Thus I pray Musk can outrun my impending doom.

I am some time behind you. It appears I have a good shot of winning the gamble.
 
Tom:

Thanks for that.

Yes, that's been on my radar but have yet to give it the time it deserves.

A key question for me, is whether the big collection of apps available do the job, thus how needed is it. And how much is just duplicate sources? Would I wind up doing that plus apps and just overkill it? Part of it is what's available, but the harder part is what do I want?
 
HI FWT
For the weather - To be very clear, I am primarily trying to solve weather when I dont have cell or VHF.

Inside passage - Twice out of about 6 times, we went into areas deep passages for a couple of days+ with not seeing another boat, no vhf and no cell. Checking the forecast prior for the next 5 days said flat and clear. Good to go.
Coming out we had passed up the last anchorage several hours ago (on limited fuel) and came out once in a storm and another time just basically uncomfortable with opposing winds and rough seas. Had I known I would have not exited and stayed put for a couple more days. The weather can change that much.
For all of my cruising I'd use cell and apps and a laptop 90% of the time. If I invest in this hopefully that all I need is right in front of me. Watching the vids I found Garmin a bit clunky with the interface. I guess worst case, I'll fill in the holes where the dome went and replace it with whatever Elon comes up with.
 
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