GPH vs Miles help??

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Everything is designed for average conditions, including the prop.
If you change the prop and something else will have to be changed. So instead changing things, the easiest thing is to live within the designed average.
 
But not if your boat was designed for higher speed than you ever want to go or if it is overpowered for marketing reasons.
 
Everything is designed for average conditions, including the prop.

That's not quite true. See the attached image showing crankshaft power (the maximum available at a given RPM) and propeller absorption (the power needed to turn the shaft at a given RPM). This is for my JD4045T.

Because the absorption curve is exponential, prop selection is done based on maximum rated RPM. The goal is to have the two curves meet at rated RPM as shown in this chart. At lower throttle the demand is always well under the available power because of the difference in curves.

The boat is underpropped when the curves meet to the right of rated RPM, which means that the demand will always be less than available power. Essentially you have unused capacity right up to WOT.

The boat is overpropped when the curves meet at less than rated RPM. This prevents the motor from reaching rated RPM, and likely mean less power is available, depending on the power curve. That too means that you're losing out on the top end.

The other danger in overpropping is inadvertently overloading the motor at maximum cruise speed. The M3 rating on my motor allows sustained operation at 2400 rpm which is ~80% load when correctly propped. If overpropped that maximum cruise RPM needs to be reduced accordingly to stay within the rating guidelines.

This is more math than we started out with, but the key to understanding lies in these graphs. The absorption curve also dictates fuel consumption to a large degree, and explains why consumption vs throttle is exponential rather than linear.

If you never plan to operate at or near full throttle overpropping might be perfectly appropriate to reduce cruising RPM and increase %load because of the gap between the curves at lower RPMs. No harm, and some benefit. Screenshot_20220102-100940_Drive.jpg
 
Jeff, my thoughts.... my boat is as stock as can be, from the builder.... I'm happy.
The boat is like a car or truck. Yes, bucks can be spent to 'soup it up' but at what cost and what benefit.
 
Depends on what benefit you are looking for.... even truck manufactures offer packages to make them better at towing, off roading, more luxurious.

There is a huge aftermarket industry offering all kinds of stuff that even improve on the manufacturer packages.

Boats and cars are no different...haven't we heard of the upgrades you said you have done to your boat?
 
On boats I never think of mph .. always gph.
 
On boats I never think of mph .. always gph.

I’m with Willy. At 1775 RPMs my gph is always 10. My nmph could be as high as 14 or as low as 6.5 depending on wind, waves or current. Going down the West Coast I can usually average 10.5 nmph but coming up it’s more like 9.2. Either way I have 60 hours to get to the next fuel stop.
 
Or GPkM for trip calcs

Then there is the readout on the car that is gradually training us all to think in l/100km. Take your .5 gpm (USg) = 1.18 l/km or, within the accuracy of any reported GPH, 2 l/kn for boats like yours and mine.
 
Then there is the readout on the car that is gradually training us all to think in l/100km. Take your .5 gpm (USg) = 1.18 l/km or, within the accuracy of any reported GPH, 2 l/kn for boats like yours and mine.

My car has an average speed display :rofl: I am doing 100km and it tells me my average speed today is 45. I swear it must start recording when the engine is started.

With go fast boats I used to do runs and dip tank to determine that after getting on plane + maybe 50 rpm was best GPM, well of course.
With the trawler it is similar though as the engine running at an rpm just before it is screaming is most economical. Prop slip is wasted rpm.
Thus the comments of 7knots for most in still water.
 
For those with engines that don't directly report their fuel burn, how are you measuring it? Do you have a calibration tank of some sort?
 
For those with engines that don't directly report their fuel burn, how are you measuring it? Do you have a calibration tank of some sort?
I think the question is for folks without some sort of electronic fuel monitoring and who report at multiple RPM and speed, how do they determine gph, which is a good question.

TT - how accurate do you think the fuel flow monitoring is on electronic engines? Both my cars report noticibly optimistic fuel burn, and I suspect the couple boats I've been on for moderately long range runs are also optimistic a bit over 5% or so.

Peter
 
This is a question.
SOG plus GPH should provide enough information for planning your next fuel stop?

GPH can be determined by the electronic read out and or factory provided chart or the sight glass on the tank.
 
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For those with engines that don't directly report their fuel burn, how are you measuring it? Do you have a calibration tank of some sort?

I have three tie straps on the tank site tube. Bottom is lowest I have used, top is highest I have filled and in the middle the one that moves to the current level.

I used 20 L gerry cans to add fuel. and made note and measured that in the mid16" (or mid 1/3) from top to bottom, and found that one inch equals 20L. Now I can measure from last level to current and estimate usage on any trip.

I can also measure from the top strap to the fill line, and determine amount used since last fill.

Of course now that I have a means available I seldom use it for more than to estimate when to head for a refill. I set the throttle and rpm to what suits me at the moment rather than only travel at optimum.
 
The calibration of my tanks is fairly easy. The tanks are rectangular of a known capacity.
I used 'blue tape' and a magic marker.
 
For those with engines that don't directly report their fuel burn, how are you measuring it? Do you have a calibration tank of some sort?

I have a clear vent tube on all my tanks. Each vent tube has a black line. When I fuel up I fill all tanks to the black line. This way I know exactly how many gallons I have used. Obviously I get hours off the hour meter. At time of fill up I start a new track log. This is how I track nautical miles traveled.

When I first bought the boat the tanks were bone dry. I took advantage of this to calibrate the sight tubes in 10 gallon increments. This allows me to keep tabs on my GPH at all times.
 
I sounds like the methods described give you average GPH, but not so much insight into gph at various rpm increments. I'm just trying to get an idea how accurate the numbers are when handed to someone like the OP. So far, the number passed around have been all over the place, ranging from 2 nmpg to 4 nmpg.


I know a lot of manufacturers publish performance numbers, but wouldn't bank on them being correct. Most I have seen are wildly optimistic, and often times are just calculated estimates and not actual measured numbers.


For what most of us do, it doesn't really matter very much, but when someone is trying to calculate range, and doesn't have fuel stops in between, it suddenly matters quite a bit. We all know that a speed change of just 1/2kt has a significant impact on NMPG. If the numbers throw about are off by 1/2 or a 1/4 kt here, and a 1/2 or 1/4 gph there, is suddenly makes a big difference.


MVWeebles asked how accurate engine-reported fuel burn numbers are. From what I'm told, mostly pretty accurate. How's that for a non-answer? The only person I know who has actually checked was James Hamilton on Dirona. He carefully calibrated the small "burn tank" on his boat. It's about a foot tall and holds about a gallon of fuel, so graduation marks pretty small increments of fuel. He then did runs measuring the burn from the tank compared to what the engine ECU reported. As I recall he found that at higher loads it was spot on, but at light loads is was over-reporting how much was burned, and was off by as much as 10% in the worst case. But like a car speedometer, it's always better to report higher than actual.



What I do believe is that the ECU numbers are probably better than any other method, save for a carefully calibrated burn tank. But even a burn tank you need to be real careful with. A little change of heel, or sighting from a different angle can knock off the results. I suspect this is magnified significantly for something like the sight tubes on a main tank. One here was described as being 20l per inch. That would be really hard to read accurately to anything better than +/-2l or so, I would think. That's +/-10%, or an range of 20% that it could be off.
 
Twisted, have you figured out that we do not know exactly what our boat will burn under every condition, let alone be able to give anyone a specific answer of what their boat will burn. So it becomes an educated opinion.
They burn the same GPH at a set rpm regardless of wind, waves or current. Distance travelled will vary will vary greatly from one day to the next, from one transit to another.
 
I sounds like the methods described give you average GPH, but not so much insight into gph at various rpm increments. I'm just trying to get an idea how accurate the numbers are when handed to someone like the OP. So far, the number passed around have been all over the place, ranging from 2 nmpg to 4 nmpg.


I know a lot of manufacturers publish performance numbers, but wouldn't bank on them being correct. Most I have seen are wildly optimistic, and often times are just calculated estimates and not actual measured numbers.


For what most of us do, it doesn't really matter very much, but when someone is trying to calculate range, and doesn't have fuel stops in between, it suddenly matters quite a bit. We all know that a speed change of just 1/2kt has a significant impact on NMPG. If the numbers throw about are off by 1/2 or a 1/4 kt here, and a 1/2 or 1/4 gph there, is suddenly makes a big difference.


MVWeebles asked how accurate engine-reported fuel burn numbers are. From what I'm told, mostly pretty accurate. How's that for a non-answer? The only person I know who has actually checked was James Hamilton on Dirona. He carefully calibrated the small "burn tank" on his boat. It's about a foot tall and holds about a gallon of fuel, so graduation marks pretty small increments of fuel. He then did runs measuring the burn from the tank compared to what the engine ECU reported. As I recall he found that at higher loads it was spot on, but at light loads is was over-reporting how much was burned, and was off by as much as 10% in the worst case. But like a car speedometer, it's always better to report higher than actual.



What I do believe is that the ECU numbers are probably better than any other method, save for a carefully calibrated burn tank. But even a burn tank you need to be real careful with. A little change of heel, or sighting from a different angle can knock off the results. I suspect this is magnified significantly for something like the sight tubes on a main tank. One here was described as being 20l per inch. That would be really hard to read accurately to anything better than +/-2l or so, I would think. That's +/-10%, or an range of 20% that it could be off.
I am in awe of the true wonks that form a sub-community of Nordhavn owners. Dirona is Exhibit #1 (TT is on the list too). Finely calibrated day tank is what PAE did to prep the N40 for RTW trip.

This actually evolved into a really interesting thread. GPH is an incredibly common topic and yet here we are, reckoning with the inherent innacuracy of the entire premise.

Turns out that getting fuel burn and range are difficult. As I've mentioned many times, a W36 went from LA to Hawaii. His model - a Blaine Sealey adaptation with pilot house and small sail plan - reportedly carries 300 gals (for comparison, my sedan version reportedly carries 500). He also carried a bladder with 100 gallons. In a letter to Willard he firmly states he burned 335 gals. But some of his numbers are off a bit - days at sea is missing, etc. In the end, when you do the simple math he burned 0.9 gph at 6/kts which is amazing - too amazing even for his 75 hp Perkins 4.236. Either he got a decent push from his sail plan or currents, or his installed fuel tank was actually larger than 300 gals, or something. Likely some combination.

For most of us, the only practical method is what Psneeld reported towards the beginning of this thread. Measurement over many fill-ups with accurate record keeping to give a single average. Even then, it's his average so you'd have to know something about how he uses his boat - long runs, generator time, etc.

So there are several problems with GPH. Owners are inclined towards optimism and parse data to skew the outcome. In fairness data surrounding distance traveled is difficult to accurately calculate unless you make very long runs. But sometimes you have to start somewhere. When I was delivering, I delivered mostly 50-60 foot trawlers and motor Yachts, and mostly at economical speeds due to range requirements along Pacific Coast. My first number was always 1 g/nm and I'd adjust from there - the Nordhavns ran a bit better, go-fast boats a bit worse. If I were to deliver the OPs CHB34 with 100g capacity along the coast, I would insist on being the present when the tanks were topped, then make run with a fuel stop available at around 125-175 nms, and plan around 6.5 kts avg SOG. With only 100g, would be a long and expensive delivery along the west coast due to fuel stops and the time taken to go on/out while planning around weather and currents.

Good discussion.

Peter
 
Just a quick question to see if somebody can help me figure this out since I'm learning about gallons per hour versus gallons per mile

If I have 100 gallons on board assuming I only use 80 to leave 10 gallons on the bottom of each tank and I average 1.8 gallons per hour how far would I be able to go on 80 gallons? Thank you


GPH is important because your speed over ground is not constant. This is where true navigation comes in. You have to consider current, winds, sea state, and distance to destination to figure how many hours it will take to get to your destination. Based on that you have to calculate your hourly burn rate, based primarily on RPM to determine the gallons you will consume on the voyage. I have made several trips of 300-400 miles between ports and were then able to figure when or if we had sufficient fuel to increase RPM/speed/burn rate and arrive ahead of sundown/weather/etc. It is actually fun once you get the parameters figured out. A working knowledge of EXCELL helps.
 
I sounds like the methods described give you average GPH, but not so much insight into gph at various rpm increments. I'm just trying to get an idea how accurate the numbers are when handed to someone like the OP. So far, the number passed around have been all over the place, ranging from 2 nmpg to 4 nmpg.


I know a lot of manufacturers publish performance numbers, but wouldn't bank on them being correct. Most I have seen are wildly optimistic, and often times are just calculated estimates and not actual measured numbers.


For what most of us do, it doesn't really matter very much, but when someone is trying to calculate range, and doesn't have fuel stops in between, it suddenly matters quite a bit. We all know that a speed change of just 1/2kt has a significant impact on NMPG. If the numbers throw about are off by 1/2 or a 1/4 kt here, and a 1/2 or 1/4 gph there, is suddenly makes a big difference.


MVWeebles asked how accurate engine-reported fuel burn numbers are. From what I'm told, mostly pretty accurate. How's that for a non-answer? The only person I know who has actually checked was James Hamilton on Dirona. He carefully calibrated the small "burn tank" on his boat. It's about a foot tall and holds about a gallon of fuel, so graduation marks pretty small increments of fuel. He then did runs measuring the burn from the tank compared to what the engine ECU reported. As I recall he found that at higher loads it was spot on, but at light loads is was over-reporting how much was burned, and was off by as much as 10% in the worst case. But like a car speedometer, it's always better to report higher than actual.



What I do believe is that the ECU numbers are probably better than any other method, save for a carefully calibrated burn tank. But even a burn tank you need to be real careful with. A little change of heel, or sighting from a different angle can knock off the results. I suspect this is magnified significantly for something like the sight tubes on a main tank. One here was described as being 20l per inch. That would be really hard to read accurately to anything better than +/-2l or so, I would think. That's +/-10%, or an range of 20% that it could be off.

Our findings would agree with Dirona's. We have engineers who just love to test these things. We find on a normal burn of a tank down that our actual fuel mileage is slightly better than reported by ECU. Now, I do believe the variance for a displacement hull run at slow speed would have the maximum variance and, in this case, much like Dirona found, the actual efficiency is better than the ECU numbers. I attribute this to the return of fuel to the tanks being slightly more than measured.

We've also checked reported loads vs. measured by fuel flow and found very similar.

Now, to those without electronic fuel data, it's our impression, although we can't prove it, that many believe they're getting better fuel mileage than they actually are. Two reasons. First is bragging rights. Second is that they measure on long runs at ideal speeds, but tend to not take into account shorter runs with acceleration or cold engines warming up or runs into strong winds, waves and currents.

As to those numbers reported by manufacturers and by sites like boattest and Power and Motoryacht, we find those numbers very accurate for what they are. We only trust those that are actual runs, not those projected but never trialed. Also, we note the conditions. Here is a typical example:

LOAD 3 persons, 1/3 fuel, 50 lbs. of gear
CLIMATE 79 deg., 95 humid., wind: 5-10 mph, seas: calm

That just happened to be from a Swift Trawler 41. Easy to add 1000-1500 pounds of fuel and gear. 1500 pounds increases the weight by 5-6% and that's significant. Then add 3' seas and a 2 knot current or 15-20 mph winds.

So at 3000 RPM, that boat shows 18 knots and 21 gph or 0.86 nmpg, but I would expect at 3000 RPM in real life, they'll get more like 16 knots and 21 gph or 0.76 nmpg. That is a drop of 11-12%. This is where the problem with tests and builder supplied numbers, not their accuracy, but their misinterpretation or misuse.

Now, I must say, that all our builders numbers have been conservative. In actual usage, we get better fuel mileage than their data they gave us indicated. It's only a small amount but it is better. I attribute most of that to engines just getting properly broken in. After break in, we typically see improvements.

Now, I must give a caveat on builders. Reputable vs. questionable. Reputable builders don't want to give misleading numbers and their graphs are very accurate. However, there are many builders who toss numbers around freely without checking them. Most are smaller builders but then a couple of production builders do the same. They typical trawler builder gives fairly accurate numbers but do not trust the numbers they give prior to ever delivering a boat in a new model. I'm seen some wild sloppiness in those numbers.

One other warning. Don't forget to consider your fuel usage of your generator.
 
Now, to those without electronic fuel data, it's our impression, although we can't prove it, that many believe they're getting better fuel mileage than they actually are. Two reasons. First is bragging rights. Second is that they measure on long runs at ideal speeds, but tend to not take into account shorter runs with acceleration or cold engines warming up or runs into strong winds, waves and currents.

Amen. When I was delivering, I stopped asking what fuel burn was. Owners were always wildly optimistic. Had I adhered to their guidance, I'd still be floating around the Pacific waiting for fuel.

Peter
 
For those with engines that don't directly report their fuel burn, how are you measuring it? Do you have a calibration tank of some sort?

Quote from Weebles:
For most of us, the only practical method is what Psneeld reported towards the beginning of this thread. Measurement over many fill-ups with accurate record keeping to give a single average. Even then, it's his average so you'd have to know something about how he uses his boat - long runs, generator time, etc.


That's how I have done it. Accurate logging of NM traveled each day, compiled by Coastal Explorer set to detailed tracking of distance traveled over ground. Gallons of diesel used in tank after tank over thousands of NM. NMPG calculated every fillup and at the end of every summer's cruise.

Over the last six summers poking some 21,000 NM around the Inside Passage, almost always at 7-7.5 knots (speed over water), our NT 37's filllups ranged from 3.4 to 4.4 NMPG. Whole summers 3.7 - 3.8. The genset and heater used some of that diesel, but I have no guess as to how much.

Depending on current and sea conditions, GPH goes up and down, but I don't pay attention to it. Over the long haul these effects seem to average out. I can pretty much count on 3.5 NMPG or better. Seems to me that's what I need to know.
 
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Amen. When I was delivering, I stopped asking what fuel burn was. Owners were always wildly optimistic. Had I adhered to their guidance, I'd still be floating around the Pacific waiting for fuel.

Peter

The delivery captains I know will absolutely not trust owners when it comes to fuel and range. I remember one recently making a trip. He added four 55 gallon drums. The boat had fuel around 900 gallons. The owner insisted the drums weren't necessary. Well, used the four drums and when they reached the marina added 750 gallons of fuel, so used 970. Of course many running south in the spring offshore on the east coast, forget to consider the Gulf Stream.
 
The delivery captains I know will absolutely not trust owners when it comes to fuel and range. I remember one recently making a trip. He added four 55 gallon drums. The boat had fuel around 900 gallons. The owner insisted the drums weren't necessary. Well, used the four drums and when they reached the marina added 750 gallons of fuel, so used 970. Of course many running south in the spring offshore on the east coast, forget to consider the Gulf Stream.
You are correct about the Gulf Stream. If you have decent info you can play the eddies. We once picked up 4 knots in an eddy.
 
You are correct about the Gulf Stream. If you have decent info you can play the eddies. We once picked up 4 knots in an eddy.

Wifey B: Hit 58.7 knots under my helmsmanship as I found the stream and rode it long and hard the other day. Fastest run we'd had in the boat we ran in Europe all summer. When you're talking about a planing hull with very little draft, you pick up all the fastest moving water from the top. :D

Of course then a center console with 6 engines goes zooming past me, going much faster. :eek:
 
As I've mentioned many times, a W36 went from LA to Hawaii. His model - a Blaine Sealey adaptation with pilot house and small sail plan - reportedly carries 300 gals (for comparison, my sedan version reportedly carries 500). He also carried a bladder with 100 gallons. In a letter to Willard he firmly states he burned 335 gals. But some of his numbers are off a bit - days at sea is missing, etc. In the end, when you do the simple math he burned 0.9 gph at 6/kts which is amazing - too amazing even for his 75 hp Perkins 4.236.

I don't understand your skepticism. Motor's running at ~15 HP, giving 6 knots. Sounds plausible to me. The trick would have been having the discipline to run at that speed all the way.

You asked about ECU reported numbers. I have a JD4045 M75 that gives fuel numbers. It's not common rail, but the ECU controls the mechanical injection. My reported numbers are 20-25% low. I have both cumulative and instantaneous reporting, and they always agree - if I run for an hour at constant throttle the cumulative increase matches the instantaneous reading, and I've done it at various throttle settings. But at fill up I consistently put in more than the reported consumption. I'm still puzzled and a bit disappointed by that. My hybrid cars have always been spot on.

It's still super useful though. Even if the absolute value is incorrect, it gives lots of insight into speed vs burn (hint: go slow), and I'm numerate enough to be able to apply a correction factor that gets me close to true numbers. I know within 5% how much fuel I'll take at fill-up.
 
I don't understand your skepticism. Motor's running at ~15 HP, giving 6 knots. Sounds plausible to me. The trick would have been having the discipline to run at that speed all the way.

I just don't think a 30k lb boat can sustain 0.9 gph over that type of distance in open water - LA to Honolulu. 1987 - measurements were not as precise as today. 6-kt avg is pretty fast. Good news is a W36 easily made the crossing. No one seems to know how it made the return - she's been in the PNW for years.

Peter
 
I just don't think a 30k lb boat can sustain 0.9 gph over that type of distance in open water - LA to Honolulu. 1987 - measurements were not as precise as today. 6-kt avg is pretty fast. Good news is a W36 easily made the crossing. No one seems to know how it made the return - she's been in the PNW for years.

Peter
Easy Peter, they just kept going west!

Also, with any luck you can pick up almost a knot speed over ground
from the current plus wind from L.A. to Hawaii.
 
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