Albin 36 skeg shoe rot
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C lectric
Guru
Try posting some photos so we can see, sort of, what you mean. Not being an Albin owner we can only guess at what is there.
I suspect though that you will need to do a proper repair, grinding out the bad material and rebuilding it properly. Maybe a high strength filled, thickened epoxy will work but you must still remove the bad stuff for it to get a grip or it too may just add to the problem
Also try looking up the Albin Owners and pose your question there.
Albin Owners Group • Index page
I suspect though that you will need to do a proper repair, grinding out the bad material and rebuilding it properly. Maybe a high strength filled, thickened epoxy will work but you must still remove the bad stuff for it to get a grip or it too may just add to the problem
Also try looking up the Albin Owners and pose your question there.
Albin Owners Group • Index page
We repaired a rudder and keel that was damaged on our last boat and pretty much followed what C electric said. You have to get down to good material, so start grinding or cut it out. Once you get to solid material, wet out with un-thickened epoxy, fill the rough edges with a thickened epoxy. Immediately start laying up with fiberglass mat with no more than 5 layers. Let it kick, then grind with 80 grit. If you need more mat do it and again no more than 5 layers. Sand with 80 grit and fair with some microballoons then barrier coat. The reason for the maximum of the 5 coats of glass mat is that the thicker the area, the hotter it gets during curring (exothermic reaction). You can loose strength as it was explained to me if it gets to hot. You should be able to do the whole thing in 2 days. I just repaired a transom door with the same process that was cracked and had rot. We just painted today.
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skipperdude
Guru
If you can let it set for a while that would be a good thing.
To dry out.
Even try a heat lamp. If it isn't dry you will never get epoxy to stick. You will wind up just encasing the water that has soaked into the keel.
I have used the tiger hair or kitty hair to good success.
you can get it at NAPA it is also called Green filler.
It has stranded fiberglass mixed into it.
Then follow Larry's advice.
SD
To dry out.
Even try a heat lamp. If it isn't dry you will never get epoxy to stick. You will wind up just encasing the water that has soaked into the keel.
I have used the tiger hair or kitty hair to good success.
you can get it at NAPA it is also called Green filler.
It has stranded fiberglass mixed into it.
Then follow Larry's advice.
SD
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psneeld
Guru
jleonard
Guru
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By all means grind all the bad stuff out and re-glass it. My personal preference is to use polyester resin as I find it easier to work with.
But you can also use epoxy.
Use overlapping layers of mat material.
I wouldn't use any fillers other than to fair it out if needed when you're finished.
Then cover it with several coats of gelcoat (if you use polyester resin).
doesn't have to be fancy as only the fish will see it.
But you can also use epoxy.
Use overlapping layers of mat material.
I wouldn't use any fillers other than to fair it out if needed when you're finished.
Then cover it with several coats of gelcoat (if you use polyester resin).
doesn't have to be fancy as only the fish will see it.
If you're going to use polyester resin, which is fine, I suggest that you use an epoxy barrier coat such as Interlux Interprotect 2000 vs the gelcoat. The epoxy barrier coat will prevent the repaired area from water absorption which the gel-coat does not do as effectively.
psneeld
Guru
heck..half the pros now are recommending vinylester instead of epoxy if you get the right one..and don't worry about a barrier coat.
me I'm still an epoxy guy for "old work repair"...buy that's me and the other half....
me I'm still an epoxy guy for "old work repair"...buy that's me and the other half....
FF
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".half the pros now are recommending vinylester instead of epoxy if you get the right one."
Especa1lly the "pros" that are quoting a fixed price for the job .
Epoxy is expensive !
A secondary bond is only as strong as the bond material.
Especa1lly the "pros" that are quoting a fixed price for the job .
Epoxy is expensive !
A secondary bond is only as strong as the bond material.
ARoss
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- 1973 Marine Trader 34
LarryM: I see you've gone to the "dark side" by painting the teak trim on that transom door. Are you re-doing all exterior teak? Any regrets? I have started by painting out some grab-rails that were a PITA to mask/sand/Cetol and so I went white. Still have teak trim on the flybridge that might not last long.
C lectric
Guru
I wasn't going to add to this as you have had good advice, but I'll just say this should be done properly. This is not a place for bandaids.
Grind the broken fiberglass out , feather the edges and rebuild it. it doesn't have to be cosmeticly beautiful. If you can't do it I'm sure you can find someone who won't charge and arm and a leg but will do a good job.
Grind the broken fiberglass out , feather the edges and rebuild it. it doesn't have to be cosmeticly beautiful. If you can't do it I'm sure you can find someone who won't charge and arm and a leg but will do a good job.
Actually, I hadn't pulled the tape yet. After 5 coats, it's hard to tell. We have painted the eye brow and exterior of the pilot house doors and have absolutely no regrets. We have been using a 1 part polyurethane, off white.
Capt. Joe
Veteran Member
Yes, the keel is hollow unless someone had poured in concrete.
There is usually a falso sole over the keel sump.
Water ingression is common and if the boat has been in northern climates, then laminate fractures due to winter freeze exacerbate the situation.
Someone had already said this and it can not be over stated that there is only one way to repair this kind of laminate damage; properly or not at all!
The water must be allowed to drain and the laminate needs drying time.
Also, are these superficial pressure-washer marks, or gelcoat cracks:
I have seen gelcoat fractures not unlike what we see above. Hope that's not the case here, which would mean the laminate has been wet long enough to lose structural stiffness and is suffering from excessive flexing.
Do not mean to scare, but have a surveyor or a fiberglass expert come over and use moisture meter and acoustical sounding, before you waste your time doing anything. You need to know how wet the laminate is and how far on both sides of the keelbox.
By the way, that's not the keel bottom "decomposing" that is filler someone had already micky moused over older damage....
There is usually a falso sole over the keel sump.
Water ingression is common and if the boat has been in northern climates, then laminate fractures due to winter freeze exacerbate the situation.
Someone had already said this and it can not be over stated that there is only one way to repair this kind of laminate damage; properly or not at all!
The water must be allowed to drain and the laminate needs drying time.
Also, are these superficial pressure-washer marks, or gelcoat cracks:
I have seen gelcoat fractures not unlike what we see above. Hope that's not the case here, which would mean the laminate has been wet long enough to lose structural stiffness and is suffering from excessive flexing.
Do not mean to scare, but have a surveyor or a fiberglass expert come over and use moisture meter and acoustical sounding, before you waste your time doing anything. You need to know how wet the laminate is and how far on both sides of the keelbox.
By the way, that's not the keel bottom "decomposing" that is filler someone had already micky moused over older damage....
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skipperdude
Guru
Capt. Joe
Are you refering to the pic psneeld posted or the origional by JCDSAIL?
RE. your comment about Keel bottom decomposing
SD
Are you refering to the pic psneeld posted or the origional by JCDSAIL?
RE. your comment about Keel bottom decomposing
SD
Capt. Joe
Veteran Member
The one I am referring to is the one in my post, which is the edited version of the original posted by JCDSAIL - do you not see it in my post?
psneeld
Guru
From what I have read...moisture meters are a crapshoot when it comes to hydrolysis issues...only coring has been recommended and I'll vouch for that...my surveyor and moisture meter struck out completely when it came to finding my hydrolysis issue.
Not sure about acoustical sounding....non of the reference material reading I have been doing talks about it in hull issues...not saying it isn't valid...just have to research that a bit more.
Not sure about acoustical sounding....non of the reference material reading I have been doing talks about it in hull issues...not saying it isn't valid...just have to research that a bit more.
Capt. Joe
Veteran Member
With all due respect, you need to be more careful regarding where and what you are reading.
Moisture metering devices have been employed as a tried and true, accepted instrument in our industry for nearly three decades! (A new devices currently being developed is infrared thermography.)
As with any technical instrument, a certain amount of skill and experience must be possessed by the hand using a moisture meter.
Your surveyor "struck out" because of incompetence and not because a flaw in the tool! And, I am sorry but it is not fair for you to portray a good instrument in such negative manner, all derived from little knowledge gained by "From what you have read"!
If you do not know what acoustical sounding is, then clearly your surveyor have also struck out in the second major technical portion of an appropriately conducted marine survey, which is the sounding. Sounding is done with a particular weight sounding hammer and the trick is where the surveyor's experience is, when interpreting the sounds received in his or her ears.
The survey report should expressly, in writing and very thoroughly state what moisture reading and what acoustical sounding results were obtained on all accessible laminate components of the boat.
The procedure of a well conducted marine survey takes time, and employs the metering device first, which identifies regions of moisture. In a used boat, we are looking for readings which are considered above what is normal, gradual deterioration. Acoustical sounding then further clarifies the extent of the wetting found by the meter, which may turn out to be normal, may be a cause for action or may be extensive saturation damage.
Aside from following the moisture meter, acoustical sounding is also carried out across any and all accessible laminate surfaces of the vessel, including exterior and interior components, in order to discover delamination issues that are not resultant of moisture.
The third part of the marine survey is the visual observation. This obviously is quite limited regarding being able to discover defects in areas other than those that are already severely progressed.
When I started out, we only had sounding at our hands. With the use of moisture meters, we can now detect laminate issues while in early stages of development and before becoming a wide spread deficiency, thus saving boat owners substantial expenses.
BTW, when dealing with fiberglass reinforced polyester (FRP) laminates, "hydrolysis" is almost never seen. The ingression of moisture into single series as well as cored laminates is simply referred to as wetting, core-rot or saturation (because true dissolution does not take place). Yes, dissolution, or hydrolysis of the polyester resin bonding the glass fibers can occur due to water soluble components breaking down in the resin, but requires longer than most of our larger boats have time to sit around and decay.....
Capt. Joseph G. Berta, MMS, CMS
Principal Surveyor
MSOL Marine Surveyors & Consultants
905 955-4449
www.marinesupportonline.com
www.bertamarineconsultants.com
psneeld
Guru
Here's just one ore of the hundreds of articles and professionals I have talked too about the subject...
Moisture meter for osmosis and hydrolysis
This article is a summary. We are working on a full translation of our Dutch article. This article is written as a part of our ongoing research into osmosis and hydrolysis in GRP hulls. A good text on blisters is: Gelcoat Blisters, diagnosis, repair & prevention by the Gougeon Brothers.
To print this article, click on PDF or on Print for a paper- and inkt friendly version.
A moisture meter can give you a rough indication of the risk a hull has to develop blisters, osmosis or hydrolysis problems. In our opinion it's an educated guess, but unfortunately there is no better method to determine this risk.
A moisture meter will only give an indication of the moisture content of a hull. With our meters, you can very roughly divide the reading by ten to find the actual moisture content. The moisture content in itself is not a very good indication of the risk of osmosis. We suggest that you take multiple readings above and below the waterline, and compare your findings. For the average boat, a difference of 10% between the readings suggests that the laminate has absorbed a reasonably low amount of water. A reasonable prediction is that this hull is unlikely to develop problems in the next few years.
For old boats, which have stayed in the water for longer periods, the difference might be increased alittle, to say 15%. If a one year old hull has allready absorbed more than 10% difference, be aware!
I do my homework and as to tapping the hull....yes and no again...only as good as the surveyor and as bad as the delam.
And if the term "hydrolysis" is being misused....I apologize....I'm just using it in the same way hundred of professionals in the GRP pipe and tank business as well as the marine industry use it (maybe not all surveyors though). I know it may be misused in many cases...and I'm no chemist.... I'm just learning and repeating what I hear and read from lot's of respected pro's out there.
Moisture meter for osmosis and hydrolysis
This article is a summary. We are working on a full translation of our Dutch article. This article is written as a part of our ongoing research into osmosis and hydrolysis in GRP hulls. A good text on blisters is: Gelcoat Blisters, diagnosis, repair & prevention by the Gougeon Brothers. To print this article, click on PDF or on Print for a paper- and inkt friendly version.
A moisture meter can give you a rough indication of the risk a hull has to develop blisters, osmosis or hydrolysis problems. In our opinion it's an educated guess, but unfortunately there is no better method to determine this risk.
A moisture meter will only give an indication of the moisture content of a hull. With our meters, you can very roughly divide the reading by ten to find the actual moisture content. The moisture content in itself is not a very good indication of the risk of osmosis. We suggest that you take multiple readings above and below the waterline, and compare your findings. For the average boat, a difference of 10% between the readings suggests that the laminate has absorbed a reasonably low amount of water. A reasonable prediction is that this hull is unlikely to develop problems in the next few years.
For old boats, which have stayed in the water for longer periods, the difference might be increased alittle, to say 15%. If a one year old hull has allready absorbed more than 10% difference, be aware!
I do my homework and as to tapping the hull....yes and no again...only as good as the surveyor and as bad as the delam.
And if the term "hydrolysis" is being misused....I apologize....I'm just using it in the same way hundred of professionals in the GRP pipe and tank business as well as the marine industry use it (maybe not all surveyors though). I know it may be misused in many cases...and I'm no chemist.... I'm just learning and repeating what I hear and read from lot's of respected pro's out there.
RickB
Guru
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I'll side with Mr. Psneeld ... moisture meters have become the talisman of silver hammer surveyors and continue to impress the villagers with their electronic wizardry. No doubt someday they will be consigned to the shelves alongside the Heidelberg electric belt.
Moisture meters were developed for wood and grain and have a good history of reasonable accuracy in those applications, reasonable for field use anyway. But thre is a world of difference between FRP and wood or grain. A quick review of the literature on marine moisture measurement shows it to be almost exclusively written by those who sell the units and surveyors who sell the use of them.
Thermal imaging offers what may be the best chance to identify areas of delamination or moisture intrusion and we use it when we suspect problems on FRP hulls. Even then there is considerable "art" involved in the process with regard to internal and external temperature gradients and environmental conditions such as air temperature, sunlight and shadow.
Ultrasonic testing is routine and we use it for thickness gauging of metallic hull plating and piping. I use a small unit when I suspect problems and if something shows up I call in a class approved surveyor to confirm and document the condition. Using ultrasonics to survey an FRP hull requires a specialized device and more training than the normal small boat surveyor has at his disposal.
Anything by an alphabet surveyor beyond an hour or two spent tap tap tapping on the hull is (in my opinion) nothing more than show. Even the legitimate class surveyors(ABS, Lloyd's, DNV, etc.) call in specialist NDTcontractors when a potential problem area is suspected.
Moisture meters were developed for wood and grain and have a good history of reasonable accuracy in those applications, reasonable for field use anyway. But thre is a world of difference between FRP and wood or grain. A quick review of the literature on marine moisture measurement shows it to be almost exclusively written by those who sell the units and surveyors who sell the use of them.
Thermal imaging offers what may be the best chance to identify areas of delamination or moisture intrusion and we use it when we suspect problems on FRP hulls. Even then there is considerable "art" involved in the process with regard to internal and external temperature gradients and environmental conditions such as air temperature, sunlight and shadow.
Ultrasonic testing is routine and we use it for thickness gauging of metallic hull plating and piping. I use a small unit when I suspect problems and if something shows up I call in a class approved surveyor to confirm and document the condition. Using ultrasonics to survey an FRP hull requires a specialized device and more training than the normal small boat surveyor has at his disposal.
Anything by an alphabet surveyor beyond an hour or two spent tap tap tapping on the hull is (in my opinion) nothing more than show. Even the legitimate class surveyors(ABS, Lloyd's, DNV, etc.) call in specialist NDTcontractors when a potential problem area is suspected.
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jleonard
Guru
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I own a moisture meter...and although I won't agree with the term "crapshoot" it certainly takes some practise and the results are not always absolute. This is my experience and I am only a novice.
skipperdude
Guru
Rick,
Can you imagine $18.00 in 1900. For an Electric belt
You could probably buy a good horse and saddle for that back then.
Great for a good laugh.
Sd
Can you imagine $18.00 in 1900. For an Electric belt
You could probably buy a good horse and saddle for that back then.
Great for a good laugh.
Sd
psneeld
Guru
I think the issue is not whether a moisture meter will detect moisture...it will do that to the degree of competence of the user...it's what the state of the hull is in "with" moisture present....that's what the meter can't tell you...and what I have come to believe from extensive research is that almost no one can without coring/grinding the material.
Rick-- A question..... In the aerospace industry we use ultrasonic testing to look for voids or delamination in composite structures. Flaps, ailerons, stabilizers and now, of course, wing and fuselage sections. This is nothing new---- we filmed Qantas maintenance engineers checking a composite flap surface for delamination using ultrasonic equipment back in the late 1990s. So would this not provide a pretty accurate way to determine the integrity of a fiberglass hull?
As you say it requires specialized equipment. In my 1990s example it was a two person job: one guy running the sensor over the surface and the other guy looking at a portable display. But wouldn't this same technology apply to fiberglass boats as well? Granted, it doesn't tell you anything about moisture content. But I would think it would show delamination and voids if they are present. And from what I've seen here and in Charleston the equipment is getting simpler and smaller and presumably less expensive all the time.
As you say it requires specialized equipment. In my 1990s example it was a two person job: one guy running the sensor over the surface and the other guy looking at a portable display. But wouldn't this same technology apply to fiberglass boats as well? Granted, it doesn't tell you anything about moisture content. But I would think it would show delamination and voids if they are present. And from what I've seen here and in Charleston the equipment is getting simpler and smaller and presumably less expensive all the time.
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FF
Guru
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"But I would think it would show delamination and voids if they are present."
If you are looking for gross problems a simple tuning fork is a great tool.
Good on solid glass , less useful on foam core , as both sides need to be checked.
Low cost , easy to hear differences in sound.
If you are looking for gross problems a simple tuning fork is a great tool.
Good on solid glass , less useful on foam core , as both sides need to be checked.
Low cost , easy to hear differences in sound.
CPseudonym
Moderator Emeritus
FF said:
Makes sense. Tuning forks are handy for the same use checking steel for cracks.
