engine electronic controls = bad?

Looking at an innovative thirty-five footer. It touts an engine that "has NO electronic control systems and will run as long as there is fuel available and a battery to start."

Are electronic controls evil?

Not evil but they can introduce points of failure that are hard to troubleshoot or inspect. I've seen a vessel with the control boxes incorrectly wired to a LifePO house bank and due to an unrelated charging issue the BMS cut off the batteries rendering the controls useless. The fix was to rewire the controls to each engine battery. In another vessel a loose wire prevented a shift into reverse and caused a minor dock collision. In a third example a 4788 with both boxes wired to the port engine failed when the port engine had to be shut down due to an unrelated rapid coolant loss on the port engine.

Like any system onboard, they require the owner/operator to fully understand the system itself, how it was installed and to perform regular maintenance/inspections.

Personally I like direct mechanical or hydraulic connections for critical systems like engine/transmission/steering controls.

That said, I once had a $0.10 circlip come off of a teleflex tramsission cable rendering the port engine useless. Foretunately this happened in the slip during a forward/reverse pre-departure check and was easily rectified but in a seaway a cruising speed would've made for an interesting troublshooting process.

Personally I would avoid them but that is me and largely because I have enough to do without converting my 44 yr. old boat to electronic controls.

In general I don't think they are evil at all. They can offer a lot of info that is of use to owners. They can make finer adjustments to the operations and give warnings of impending problems long before other alarms.

The use of them has improved fuel economy and emissions substantially.

However when things go wrong they can be an absolute Bas++++ to trouble shoot without the computer and program AND the technician to be able to use it all effectively.

A lot of problems are caused by poor connections that degrade the signals that the computer needs to know what the engine is doing which from what I have seen can be a serious problem.

What needs to be done is YOU need to figure out what kind of cruising you wish to do. Far out of the way places are going to be trouble. Yet that was often the case with maverick mechanical engines , LACK OF SUPPORT.
If you intend to cruise reasonably close to home base then less of a problem..

So no definitive answer here as with all mechanical devices there are two sides.

But evil , I don't think so.

Nothing wrong with electronic controls provided it's a good implementation and the installation is good. The biggest thing is making sure you can get the information and any special tools needed to troubleshoot the system if you have an issue dinette l somewhere that a specialist isn't close at hand.

I think he's talking about the engine fuel injection system, not the shift and throttle controls. But maybe those too..


Electronic fuel injection is an easy thing to fear and not understand. But in reality they work really, really well. If they didn't, the sides of roads would be strewn with broken down trucks, and of course they are not. Cars too, for that matter.

twistedtree said:

I think he's talking about the engine fuel injection system, not the shift and throttle controls. But maybe those too..


Electronic fuel injection is an easy thing to fear and not understand. But in reality they work really, really well. If they didn't, the sides of roads would be strewn with broken down trucks, and of course they are not. Cars too, for that matter.

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Oh but you're so Twisted. Don't you know everything invented in the past 50 years is bad and evil. You even have mechanics preach that sermon, those who have never bothered to learn new or who lack the simple diagnostic equipment to quickly determine the problems but instead would prefer to guess.

twistedtree said:

I think he's talking about the engine fuel injection system, not the shift and throttle controls. But maybe those too..


Electronic fuel injection is an easy thing to fear and not understand. But in reality they work really, really well. If they didn't, the sides of roads would be strewn with broken down trucks, and of course they are not. Cars too, for that matter.

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That`s what the quote suggested imo.
Mind you, if we had EFI, and later Weber invented his carburetor, some say it would have been seen as a great advance.

"Electronic fuel injection is an easy thing to fear and not understand. But in reality they work really, really well. If they didn't, the sides of roads would be strewn with broken down trucks, and of course they are not. Cars too, for that matter."


Cars , trucks and coaches are on rubber tires which makes them a Faraday Cage , so a nearby lightning strike does not cost the computer.


Anyone contemplating world travel might want to consider the cost of flying in a qualified tech and importing expensive electronics.

Really depends in how you plan to use the boat. If speed and efficiency are primary, then common rail/electronic controlled engine js by far your best choice. If a new or newer model boat (and over 100hp ot so), electronic is your only choice due to Tier 3 mandates.

As TT states, the electronically controlled diesels are indeed reliable (and I add, efficient) however they are not as easily diagnosed and repaired, especially with DIY skills and tools. So it's a tradeoff - strong operational benefits for modern diesel engines. If you do not do your own work anyway and cruise in well populated areas with trained mechanics, there is no reason to go towards mechanical engines and a lot of reasons not to.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Peter

twistedtree said:

I think he's talking about the engine fuel injection system, not the shift and throttle controls. But maybe those too..

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No doubt I could have been more clear on what I was asking. I thank you for trying to see my intent. Here's a link to the site that got me thinking. It's for the Seapiper.

https://www.seapiper.com/engine-choices/

BandB said:

Oh but you're so Twisted. Don't you know everything invented in the past 50 years is bad and evil. You even have mechanics preach that sermon, those who have never bothered to learn new or who lack the simple diagnostic equipment to quickly determine the problems but instead would prefer to guess.

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I want my steam engine back.

The Beta is essentially a Perkins 4.236, same engine that powers my Willard 36. Has a decent reputation though I have little direct knowledge. My understanding is some of the Nordhavn 41s with twins are being spec'd with a pair of these engines. This is old-school technology. What I've always chuckled at in the Beta marketing description is "Meets current Tier III standards." Technically, yes. But what that really means is Tier III does not apply to an engine in this HP range so its exempt. Sort of a word-play to my thinking. But it does have a decent reputation.

A few years ago, I [briefly] considered re-powering my Willard. The one thing I dislike about my Perkins' is there are too many hoses which was typical of marinizations of it's time. While the Beta would have been a logical choice, I found quite a few NOS Deere 4045's in the used market and would have been my choice. Not really practical in a new build as the OEM should provide warranty support, at least for a while.

EDIT - OP: If you move forward with Seapiper, please consider that many new-boat owners spend the money to have the vessel surveyed prior to taking delivery. There have also been some lengthy threads on the Seapiper here in TF that will likely provide insights (good and bad, if any).

Peter

Ask the boat owner who has been sitting idle waiting months for a new motherboard. The electronic controlled engine flies directly into the face of the KISS principle, and Murphy's Law.

I’m a newbie coming from sail. My prior helm was a modern version of the Whitlock. Solid ss rods connected via an arm to the rudder post. The AP had its own arm. Even with a high aspect balanced spade rudder “feel” was just about as good as a tiller. Transmission was cable controlled. Between touch and sound no need ever to look at a screen to know RPM, n/f/r, nor rudder angle.

Now everything is fly by wire. Sound suppression is good enough that doesn’t help much either. Especially up on the flybridge where you’re going to be for sight lines. Totally wonderful underway but truly miss that feedback when in close maneuvers and docking. People tell me it will come. But see fly by wire as an obstacle to learning. Even screws up my back and fill as I can’t feel the difference between slow idle and neutral. Have run big stuff and center cockpits with hydraulics. Don’t like that either. So if you get that boat (depending upon your background) beyond learning how she handles figure you’ll also have to learn how to live with electronic controls. It’s definitely another layer of learning.

Agree a NA mechanically controlled engine with appropriate spares and tools aboard is huge for the off grid cruiser but we’re no longer operating in that setting. If I was cruising Florida in a cat I’d be real worried about lightening strikes but I’m not. Part availability depends upon brand. Can even be trouble for Beta, Steyr or others. Probably less likely for brands also used in farming or land transportation and more likely for currently available mechanical engines. While in the Caribbean fellow cruisers with Volvo bitched about it regardless of tier so even that doesn’t hold depending where you are.

Think for me at least you lose that feeling the boats part of you. Same as flipping from a stick to paddles and double slipper clutches.

Any common rail electronically controlled engine has an electronic throttle, though it may be in the engine room not the bridge. With no mechanical injection pump or governor, there is no lever for a mechanical throttle to operate.

ancora said:

Ask the boat owner who has been sitting idle waiting months for a new motherboard.

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I haven't encountered any.

ancora said:

Ask the boat owner who has been sitting idle waiting months for a new motherboard. The electronic controlled engine flies directly into the face of the KISS principle, and Murphy's Law.

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That makes the assumption that electronic parts are a greater waiting period than non-electronic but I remember plenty of people waiting for parts all my life. Waiting for an carburetor or an alternator to be rebuilt or crankshaft or who knows what.

While I boated on freshwater and gas engines that weren't as advanced as today, I feel fortunate to have never boated with diesels and on the coasts prior to electronics and to common rail and other advancements. That way these are the good old days to me and I don't long for something in the past that by reflection seems far more idyllic than it ever truly was.

Sophistication that makes sense for large engines might not be cost/value effective for small engines. Buy all means, get that 10% fuel savings on your 1200HP diesels. but, don't mess with my 29 HP 100ci diesels. By that, I mean legislature.

OTOH, can't we do something about the noisy, smelly, week wackers??

diver dave said:

OTOH, can't we do something about the noisy, smelly, week wackers??

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Actually we have. We sell lots of EGO trimmers which are all battery and we also sell battery models in Craftsman, Stihl, Black and Decker, Toro, Milwaukee and Dewalt. Well over half of all trimmers we sell are battery operated.

You're quite welcome. lol.

I bought the Stihl battery weedeater and a Stihl battery leaf blower. The same battery is used for both tools. Have been extremely pleased with both. They are much quieter than a comparable gasoline powered tool.

I'd be surprised why anyone would buy gas powered small lawn tools today. Regarding electronic controlled engines, which would you prefer in your car? A modern engine with electronic ignition and fuel injection or an engine from the 70's with a carbuerator and mechanical choke and mechanically controlled timing, points, rotor, etc.

phillippeterson said:

I bought the Stihl battery weedeater and a Stihl battery leaf blower. The same battery is used for both tools. Have been extremely pleased with both. They are much quieter than a comparable gasoline powered tool.

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Yes... the same could be said for corded vs cordless drills, saws etc but how many old useless tools have you acquired due to dead battys?
I guess I'm just old fashioned or a hold out but I do like the life of the old technology. I'd like to see tool mfg guarantee their battys or at least offer a trade in of dead battys at a reasonable cost (at least less than a new tool, charger + 2 battys!)
In spite of the above I have a Glendining elec control and like it compared to previous mechanical control.

The old dead battery power tool is somewhat a thing of the past, the LiIon batteries last MUCH longer than NiCad.

backinblue said:

I'd be surprised why anyone would buy gas powered small lawn tools today.

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Me, for one. Try felling and bucking up a hardwood tree with a battery saw, far away from any recharge source. I expect they are great for small homeowner jobs, and would make good pruning saws, but when it comes to cutting anything big, it's hard to beat a 5-8hp saw.

Bacchus said:

Yes... the same could be said for corded vs cordless drills, saws etc but how many old useless tools have you acquired due to dead battys?

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I've actually had remarkably good luck with them. I still have a pair of Makita drills that are 20 years old. 2 of the 4 original batteries are still working, and I replaced 2 with after market versions just within the last couple of years. And they are NiCads to boot. I have yet to replace any Li tool batteries.

A mechanical motor is a lot simpler. With that said a motor electronically controlled has a lot more failure points but is a little more efficient and has a built in diagnostic system via the computer. May also need a dealer to exchange parts to program the computer. A mechanical motor could be fixed almost anywhere in the world as long as the parts are available. A electronically controlled motor you may need to access the computer to complete some repairs.

Yes a mechanical diesel will run almost forever as long as it has fuel, air, and compression on top of that with any motor a well serviced lubercation system (oil) after it is started.

With mechanical motors slowly fading I fear when I do buy a boat to live on it will be a newer electronically controlled motor and I will pay to have a dedicated laptop to access and service my motor completely which the software alone starts around 2k plus some come with a yearly subscription to keep active.

Edit: I do see how the conversation shifted to battery operated hand tools. I am for them. I hold a 20-60v dewalt and mac battery system that are interchangeable for my power tools I use every day. Nothing wrong with the old 2cys gas if you take care of them to.

TowLou said:

A mechanical motor is a lot simpler. .

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I disagree with that as a premise. They may be simpler to you or simpler to some mechanics. But to recently trained professionals I don't think that's the case. Diagnostics of current engines can be facilitated so due to the electronics capabilities. Now it does require special equipment but it sure can streamline things. We have posts constantly about bad mechanics who didn't fix the right things or don't know what they're doing and the vast majority of those are on those "simpler" older mechanical motors. Then a few are mechanics without current diagnostic equipment or training trying to guess on newer. It is very different today and much of mechanical is now electronic and a different skillset but that doesn't mean mechanical motors are all that simple themselves. Not that I intend to learn to service either, but I could learn the electronic versions far quicker than I could the mechanical versions.

twistedtree said:

Me, for one. Try felling and bucking up a hardwood tree with a battery saw, far away from any recharge source. I expect they are great for small homeowner jobs, and would make good pruning saws, but when it comes to cutting anything big, it's hard to beat a 5-8hp saw.

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Well, you do carry spare batteries. I'm amazed at how many professionals are switching to EGO equipment. Now they obviously carry multiple batteries with them and EGO is 56 Volt. I don't think as a logger I'd tackle a forest with electric but electric has transcended beyond small homeowner jobs today and continues to get more powerful. It's interesting to watch the change in just the last two or three years. Until we got into the hardware business in 2019, I didn't even know there was such a thing as a battery powered chainsaw.

BandB said:

I disagree with that as a premise. They may be simpler to you or simpler to some mechanics. But to recently trained professionals I don't think that's the case. Diagnostics of current engines can be facilitated so due to the electronics capabilities. Now it does require special equipment but it sure can streamline things. We have posts constantly about bad mechanics who didn't fix the right things or don't know what they're doing and the vast majority of those are on those "simpler" older mechanical motors. Then a few are mechanics without current diagnostic equipment or training trying to guess on newer. It is very different today and much of mechanical is now electronic and a different skillset but that doesn't mean mechanical motors are all that simple themselves. Not that I intend to learn to service either, but I could learn the electronic versions far quicker than I could the mechanical versions.

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There is a lot more things to go wrong with an electronically controlled motor which not all the time can be diagnosed through a computer by just checking the codes. Many times it gets confusing and then you could be chasing electrical shorts somewhere. Mechanical motors could be cheaper to repair as well as long as you have the part at your hands. A electronically controlled motor many brands you need the program the computer to change serial numbers to allow that motor to run after chainging the part.

If cost is of no option and you have no intention to fix it yourself then electronically controlled all the way. To be able to fix it almost anywhere you are if you have the parts and means without additional software mechanical is the way to go.

BandB said:

Oh but you're so Twisted. Don't you know everything invented in the past 50 years is bad and evil. You even have mechanics preach that sermon, those who have never bothered to learn new or who lack the simple diagnostic equipment to quickly determine the problems but instead would prefer to guess.

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BandB is on the right track. My boat is prehistoric (1995) but converted to electronic controls later. A caveman owner, such as myself, can figure out throttle & gear cables and simple solenoids, but at my advanced years I have no interest or perhaps capability to expand my knowledge to encompass fly-by-wire and even the electronic controls on my boat give me the heebie-jeebies.

This is not the fault of the equipment, it is an expression of my limitations. If I had a GOOD electronics mechanic on hand at all times I would not worry at all. But I do worry.

Buried deep in the engine room is a manual gear change/throttle that overrides the electronics. There is a red button, that has a cover over it to prevent accidental activation. It makes me think of something that might launch a terrible weapon. It is a sacred spot. It is perhaps analagous, lthough less scary, to my Dad's old Singer Gazelle (1963?) which came with a crank starter.

I have no beef with any development as long as we are all allowed to step off at the point that it gets too complicated for us.

~Alan