How well does a survey age?

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Guilhem

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2021
Messages
58
Vessel Name
Octant
Vessel Make
Grand Banks 42 MY
Signed an offer for a 42MY with twin FL 135. Boat is in great shape. Previous owner only kept it two years, and now wants to downsize. He provided me with the survey he had ordered back when he bought it, less than 2 years ago, plus the list of repairs and maintenance items he has performed (or actually, had a mechanic perform), as directed by the survey. Story is clear, broker trustworthy and with a solid reputation.
Should I still order a full survey, or just some pointed checks? Which ones would you think are absolutely needed? Thanks for your suggestions.
 
I wouldn't buy any boat without oil analysis.

Ted
 
I wouldn't buy a boat without hauling it out, looking at the bottom, and running gear.

Ted
 
Check with your insurance provider and marina/yacht club. They may not accept a survey more than one year old. Neither of mine would.
 
A lot of insurance companies will not accept an older survey but also a survey that isn’t in the insureds name. Get your own even if you don’t need one for insurance.
 
Even if you are comfortable and confident in the condition of the boat the insurance company may not insurance without a current survey.

Here's a survey story and I am sure others probably have similar ones to share. When my buddy bought his boat it had a prior survey that was shared with him. I inspected the boat for my buddy and found a bulkhead that broke free from its fiberglass tabbing to the hull and positive wire connections on the batteries and engine not protected. Neither of these were on the survey and should have been noted by a good surveyor. He hired a different surveyor which found numerous issues that were not on the owner supplied survey.

It's a risk not to survey so I think it's a matter of being willing to except the cost of items not listed on a dated survey. If you switched shoes with my buddy how would you feel about finding a bulkhead that broke free from the hull after the sales transaction was done. I'd get a new survey from a person you trust that has no interest in the sales transaction.
 
I have found that two different surveyors will find what the other did not. They are but mere mortals and focus on what they become familiar with. They have their own bias on what is important. They are necessary because insurance relies heavily on their report.

Op, get your own survey for when you need to provide one for insurance.
 
1). Banks and Insurance most likely won’t accept a survey not in your name.

2). If you are not intimately familiar with every hour since the last survey then you need a new survey.

3). Maybe the current owner ran the boat aground and only says he wants to downsize or how do whe know any maintenance has been preformed or maybe the current owner is a dyi but never heard of ABYC.
 
Insurance companies here seem to have less strict requirements on survey, but regardless I hear your advice and will get a new one done. Thanks
 
Salut Guilhem


Follow every single advice suggested above ; buying a boat can be a significant investment, sometimes second only to your home; moreover a good survey is essential in providing peace of mind


it’s worth checking with your intended insurer before you engage a surveyor, if you find an insurance company that is willing to insure a boat without a survey, then watch out ; both of my boats - of which one is a Grand Banks 42 too - are insured with Pantaenius ; not all surveys, or surveyors, are equal, however; in your area of the south of France there are a good number of very good marine surveyors who have a long background of being in the industry


Also feel free to ask for a sample report from the surveyor you are planning to engage


Bonne chance !
 
When we bought our current boat last August I was surprised that Boat/US-Geico didn’t want a copy of the survey, but the bank did.
 
When we bought our current boat last August I was surprised that Boat/US-Geico didn’t want a copy of the survey, but the bank did.


Each insurance company set their own guidelines , OP’s boat is in France not in the US ; also it’s a matter of years; here as the industry standard , it’s common practice for an insurer to ask for an out of water survey if the boat is over 15 years old and is moored permanently
 
Get your own survey for peace of mind if nothing else. A good survey can save you more than they cost.
 
Since it sounds like the previous surveyor did a good job, I would consider contacting him to seeing if he might discount the cost of a survey that is just an update. He could confirm that the repairs were made, and give a quick look for any major change (such as evidence of a collision), and then just edit the old survey document without starting from scratch.

Remember also that insurance companies will typically require proof in the form of boat yard bills that all significant problems shown in a survey have been repaired before they will cover the boat. So be sure your surveyor keeps the written survey as short as he can (it's why it's always good to accompany the surveyor so he can point out things orally that may need fixing soon without it going in the written survey)
 
I have never had an insurance company ask me for written proof that repairs have been done. Just a statement from me saying that they had been done was all they wanted. Maybe different with different insurance companies. I have Boat/US Geico.
 
Surveys are a snapshot in time for the condition of the boat on a certain day.. They don't age well..especially through 2 years and a new owners use. I would peruse it but not give it much weight.. The boat could have been much improved.. or neglected in those 2 years. I agree with Ted and others, oil analysis. Hopefully they have been doing them and a baseline has been established
 
Good questions and responses!

Very important question, and lots of excellent responses. Everyone likely has different experiences, so each response merits consideration.

My $.02.....

Not all surveyors are equally diligent. Two year lay up or lower level of activity can invite deterioration in fuel supply on board, sedimentation, perhaps corrosion to various systems, hardening of plumbing components including heads, freeze damage, and more. Decks not maintained might absorb more moisture. Obtaining a current survey from a highly regarded, diligent surveyor makes a lot of sense to me.

I made an offer on a boat in FL years ago, and my buyer's broker recommended a very fine surveyor. I was present for the entire 5 hour survey. That survey detected shaft whip and other key issues, so I declined to close the deal.

The boat I purchased 1000 miles north of Florida, which I am very happy with on balance, had a less diligent surveyor and a far faster survey process, but it is a much better boat. The survey report, which I received in print a week after the purchase - reviewed in person at the conclusion of the survey, notes a 5 bladed prop, but it has a four bladed prop - makes one wonder what else he missed! There is a roughly 2'x2' slightly discolored portion of the hull, (although the repair is absolutely not felt by careful rubbing by the hand - smooth as can be), which was from prior damage and repair with less than great matching of the gel coat repair color - survey missed it. Surveyor did note some things that needed fixing and replacement - several good catches - idle speed too high, capping an unsed fuel line extension, replacing above water UV degraded through hull fittings, etc. But,on the delivery trip the primary RACOR clogged in rough seas off of the NJ coast and the wonderful prior owner, who accompanied me on the first four days of the delivery immediately knew what to do and instructed me to switch to the alternate RACOR filter. Shouldn't the survey have tested the fuel and tanks for sediment, suspended matter, etc.? Or, was the blockage due to the two post-purchase top off fuel stops on the delivery cruise - certainly possible? Granted, I should have looked for fuel polishing on the maintenance record, but as a newbie - my prior 5 boats were gas and sail/gas, I had never heard of fuel polishing. Post fuel polishing a month later the Volvo all but sings, especially with ValveTect diesel fuel. In general, it's a great boat, and various items in the maintenance log and conversations with the seller's mechanic on board were very positive, including pre-delivery follow up items that the seller quickly offered to pay for. But the fuel filter clogging off shore could have become quickly dangerous.

Conclusions: 1. What a great thing to have a wonderful seller who offered to go the first four days on the 11 day delivery! Wonderful gift to me! The selling broker also gave me some helm instruction and practice during commissioning days - also very helpful. Meeting with the prior owner's mechanic was a positive experience.
2. I should have examined the boat more carefully, read more, maybe gotten a survey from a different local source. Buyer's broker was more than 700 miles away - he put me onto the first great surveyor in Florida, but we didn't do so well on choosing the second surveyor. 3. Fair to admit that after 5 prior gas and sailboats, I didn't do enough reading about diesel engines, complexities of trawlers, etc. Fuel pressure didn't budge for first three days of the delivery, and onset of fuel starvation and high vaccum pressure gauge reading coincided as seas quickly built off of Cape May. Still learning, including help from TF, Zimmerman articles in Passagemaker, Boaters University classes, and US Power Squadron classes.

Advice: 1. Whether fuel tank testing in the survey or ordering a fuel polishing and primary on line and back up RACOR filters and engine fuel filter before a delivery cruise, tank/fuel condition should be a priority on any boat purchase. I did have engine oil and filter changed before the delivery cruise. If I ever buy another boat (unlikely - I am so pleased with this one!), I'll make time to have a thorough fuel polishing done, no matter what the survey shows.
2. Do a thorough job of finding the best possible surveyor you can find, even if you have to pay for travel expenses for the surveyor.
3. A good practive - I cut open the used RACOR filter after my last filter change, rolled it out in the driveway for detailed inspection in order to see what the filter was catching in a full year - 80 hours, and found absolutely zero - filter medium looked almost 100% like pictures of brand new filter medium. This confirmed what the fuel pressure gauge had been showing all year - no detected obstructions. I'll continue cutting open used RACOR filters as an annual practice to help detect fuel issues, and continue using Biobor JF and Valv-Tect fuel.
4. I've researched Synthetic 15W40 Heavey Duty Diesel Engine Oil (viscosity recomended in engine manual, no mention of synthetic) engine oils extensively and noted that the Volvo VDS-4 spec and the matching API/SAE spec are inclusive of specs back to the 2005 OEM engine manual Volvo and same period API/SAE ratings, and feel that there is good reason to consider synthetic oils. Lots of opinions on that subject. (I called Volvo USA resulting in "We recommend Volvo products", no more statement, objection or support). Performance difference is well proven in heavy highway independent testing, including by Volvo. Shell/Rotella and Mobil 1/Delvac publish performance advantages and metrics over their own blended and dino oils, and on my boat the idle, operating and WOT temperature are slightly less, engine idles and runs at all speeds smoother and quieter. Constroversial to some TF members.

Enjoy the survey/discovery process and enjoy your new trawler. I've enjoyed 5 other boats in the past, but I have never enjoyed the water as much as I do with my trawler in coastal waters. Only big mistake was waiting too many years to switch to a trawler.
 
I would not proceed based on a six month old survey, much less a two year old one. Lots can happen in a short time. I want a survey done by my surveyors with me knowing exactly what was ordered and done and a sea trial I was involved in. I want the full report as of "now" as well as any comments not in the report but that might help me better understand the condition and I want to interact directly with the surveyors and I want the ability to follow up with questions and better understand the reports.
 
Survey is an affordable part of the overall transaction and is a golden opportunity to tag along with an experienced person who's only job is to evaluate condition on your behalf. I wouldn't miss it for the world even if it wasn't required by a lender or insurance company.

Do make sure all systems are thoroughly evaluated. Depending on size of boat and systems, electronic system defects can be very expensive to track down and resolve. Firmware should be updated and interoperability of all components demonstrated. This is especially true for anything that runs on a wireless network. Depending on local custom, this may be beyond scope of a traditional survey where simple on/off is all that is evaluated.

Good luck

Peter
 
Survey

Signed an offer for a 42MY with twin FL 135. Boat is in great shape. Previous owner only kept it two years, and now wants to downsize. He provided me with the survey he had ordered back when he bought it, less than 2 years ago, plus the list of repairs and maintenance items he has performed (or actually, had a mechanic perform), as directed by the survey. Story is clear, broker trustworthy and with a solid reputation.
Should I still order a full survey, or just some pointed checks? Which ones would you think are absolutely needed? Thanks for your suggestions.

Your insurance company and bank will probably want a current, out of the water survey. Additionally, a lot can happen in two years. Have your own survey done and have an engine survey/oil analysis done as well.
 
Even with a new survey, my surveyor missed a leaking steel fuel tank. I think the PO knew it leaked with over 1/4 tank and craftily kept them low for all would be buyers. Come time to take my new boat home, I added fuel and took off. Didn't discover the leak until we stopped for the night. Then the fun began!


Trust but verify!
 
Survey

Even with a new survey, my surveyor missed a leaking steel fuel tank. I think the PO knew it leaked with over 1/4 tank and craftily kept them low for all would be buyers. Come time to take my new boat home, I added fuel and took off. Didn't discover the leak until we stopped for the night. Then the fun began!


Trust but verify!

I’ve had three surveys done. All three surveyors were certified. In every case the surveyor missed some major issues.
 
I’ve had three surveys done. All three surveyors were certified. In every case the surveyor missed some major issues.

They are only human after all.
We need a certified survey because the insurance co. demands it. Many on here can do their own inspection as well.

Each time I get a survey I look at it to see what I missed.
 
Even with a new survey, my surveyor missed a leaking steel fuel tank. I think the PO knew it leaked with over 1/4 tank and craftily kept them low for all would be buyers. Come time to take my new boat home, I added fuel and took off. Didn't discover the leak until we stopped for the night. Then the fun began!

Golly, that is a disheartening story, but sadly believable! Now it has me wondering how to test for "stealth" fuel tank leaks. Would it work to lightly pressurize the tank through the air relief opening and see if it holds a few pounds of pressure above the level of the fuel already on board? Maybe not. A small crack or split in the tank sidewall would only begin to seep under the pressure of the weight of a full load of fuel.
 
Survey

They are only human after all.
We need a certified survey because the insurance co. demands it. Many on here can do their own inspection as well.

Each time I get a survey I look at it to see what I missed.

Yes, I know. However, being human does not excuse the glaring faults that were missed, which should not have been by a professional who is being paid.
Hence my pointing out the necessity to do your own thorough inspection as well.
 
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Yes, I know. However, being human does not excuse the glaring faults that were missed, which should not have been by a professional who is being paid.
Hence my pointing out the necessity to do your own thorough inspection as well.

And to find and often wait for the right surveyor. Not saying you did this but the most common issue I see around us is as follows. The one we use in South Florida often has a substantial waiting list. People get in a hurry and find someone available today. Now, just think, if the market is extremely busy and the best surveyors have waiting lists, what kind of surveyor is available immediately?

I think it also points to being present for the surveys able to interact plus see what is done and what isn't and ask about anything that appears to you to be an omission. Then after, you'll understand the things not caught or be able to have an intelligent discussion with the surveyor on them. Note I didn't say accusatory but just discussion of the how's and why.

In the case of the fuel leak, if they did a superb job of cleaning any previously leaked fuel and it required more fuel to leak, I can understand perhaps it being missed unless visibly the source is easy to see. However, that's an area I want to see a surveyor using an infrared gun as most of the time the tiny opening where it's leaking could be detected.
 
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