Is a new-build without lithiums just plain stupid???

catalinajack said:

And fire? If one of those LFPs gets going, abandon boat cuz you won't be able to squelch it. In short order, it may even burn its way through the bottom of the boat. Amuse yourself and Google electric car fires and how 10,000s of thousands of water hosed by firefighters does almost nothing to knock down the fire. With all of the angst boaters commonly have about unlikely catastrophes, like we MUST have dual Racors, this event, burning LFPs, is far more likely and potentially DEADLY to boot unlike having to change a filter in a pitching seaway. Yet, from the proponents of LFP technology I have seen ZERO concern or discussion or analysis or even rationalization.

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This is simply not true. A common mistake, but completely incorrect none the less. LFP is VERY VERY different from other Lithium-Ion chemistries, and is actually pretty hard to get burning and keep burning. It's really very much like LA in that respect. It will release all the stored energy just as any battery will, but it doesn't run away. The most flammable part is the plastic case, just like with a LA battery. Comparing to Tesla or other car fires simply demonstrates ignorance of the different types of Li-Ion batteries.


And in an earlier post you talked about how much safer the components of LA batteries are. That's nonsense. Sulfuric acid is one of the most caustic and dangerous substances on the planet. And lead is one of the most toxic.

sunchaser said:

Yes, when doing a new build plan on a very capable Li battery complete and integrated system. But and a very big but, have a very good charging and inverter system. Add to it complete redundancy for:
- engine and generator starting,
- inverter failure and bypass
- segment separation on Li strings
- large engine driven Alternator or DC power source
- battery temperature cooling/heating

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The need for a giant system redesign is completely over blown. You can swap the batteries, adjust charger settings, and go about your business. It's really no different from switching from FLA to AGM or GEL batteries. The only restriction is that if you have fixed voltage chargers, they need to operate within the allowed range for LFP. My home system was set up this way. I swapped the batteries, and adjusted charger settings. Haven't touched is since in two years.

sunchaser said:

Which raises a question, are builders and designers up to the task of a good Li system?

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I think this is the biggest problem. People don't yet understand what's needed, and lots are blowing things out of proportion, whether it's the need to rework your entire electrical system, or that your boat will burst into flames and burn a hole in the sea. It certainly took me a while to get my head around it and to get comfortable enough to build a system. But after doing that, and living with the system for a year in daily use, I came to realize how simple and uncomplicated it really is. And how maintenance and worry free the results are. But it takes time. We have all come to know the idiosyncrasies of LA over the years, and it all seems simple and natural because we understand it. LFP is the same, only simpler, once you get familiar with it. But that will happen one tech at a time, and one customer at a time. The technology is there, but broad understanding and comfort with it has some catching up to do.

sunchaser said:

This would be a serious Achilles heel IMHO especially given the lack of agreed upon electrical system best practice design by current builders and slow to the party ABYC recommendations for Li systems.

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There is progress on this front. ABYC published TE-13 almost 2 years ago which is a "technical report" on Lithium Ion batteries in boats. A Technical Report is a pre-cursor to a standard, and currently up for review is E-13 which elevates it to a standard just like all other ABYC standards. I'm not sure when the draft becomes available for public review. It might be now. I'm on the ABYC committee so have access, but am not certain what goes public when.

sunchaser said:

What would be helpful on this subject would be comments regarding problems and solutions experienced Li system cruisers have endured. Since these are virtually non- existent on TF does this mean Li systems are that good or users are quiet regarding issues?

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There are a number of LFP users here on TF who have chimed in over the past few years. And there is a pretty active repository on CruiserForum. On the whole I think sail boaters spend more time at anchor using their batteries, so have been quicker to switch over.

Something to consider, Mean Time Between Failure.

I have not studied this in LiFeP04 cells so here are my generalized thoughts.

A LiFeP04 "battery" actually consists of I believe hundreds of small cells similar in size to a C or a D cell we all used to see in flashlights.

Make a large bank of LiFeP04 and we probably have thousands of cells.

Now think that any one of those little cells failing will render the bank severely impaired if it fails. Not only the cells but any one of the thousands of solder connections that make up a LiFeP04 bank.

What is the MTBF of the bank as a whole?

Remember that most of these banks and boats are not like Twistedtrees well thought out redundant systems. They are expensive and the lack of redundancy is checkbook driven. For Example... I follow a sailing channel on Youtube "Atticus" and their system was professionally designed by a reputable well known electrical expert, yet is highly vunerable to any single point of failure rendering it pretty much useless. My opinion is that this design methodology is more the norm than the exception.

We only think of the theoretical number of cycles in a LiFeP04 system, and tend to not even consider the real failure rate of things.

catalinajack said:

And will you own the boat or even live long enough to break even on those fancy LFP batteries?
.

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As I've said before, here in Oz the 840 ah LFP bank we have build cost about $2000 less than the cheapest 880ah AGM

If buying on actual usable ah the LFP is considerably cheaper again

And fire? If one of those LFPs gets going, abandon boat cuz you won't be able to squelch it. In short order, it may even burn its way through the bottom of the boat. Amuse yourself and Google electric car fires and how 10,000s of thousands of water hosed by firefighters does almost nothing to knock down the fire.

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And again, different chemistry

If a FLA battery fails, remove it from the bank (or two if a 6-volt array) and carry on till you can get to a port and go to Costco or Sam's Club.

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And with our LFP system I simply disconnect 1 of the 3 X 280ah @ 24v batteries and continue on with 2.
And with 2, I still have more usable ah than I had with the 880ah of AGM

ksanders said:

Something to consider, Mean Time Between Failure.

I have not studied this in LiFeP04 cells so here are my generalized thoughts.

A LiFeP04 "battery" actually consists of I believe hundreds of small cells similar in size to a C or a D cell we all used to see in flashlights.

Make a large bank of LiFeP04 and we probably have thousands of cells.



.

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Some do
Most dont
Battleborn use multiple small cells which is one of the reasons why I wouldn't use them, that and the crazy pricing.

Ours are 3.5v prismatic cells
8 cells = 280ah @ 24v
If one was to fail I simply take it out and replace , top balance again and am good to go.

And, if you didn't already know, lead acid batteries and AGM are also made up of multiple cells.
But in those if a cell fails I have to bin the whole battery
And if doing the system correctly, buy a complete new battery bank.

Simi 60 said:

Some do
Most dont
Battleborn use multiple small cells which is one of the reasons why I wouldn't use them, that and the crazy pricing.

Ours are 3.5v prismatic cells
8 cells = 280ah @ 24v
If one was to fail I simply take it out and replace , top balance again and am good to go.

And, if you didn't already know, lead acid batteries and AGM are also made up of multiple cells.
But in those if a cell fails I have to bin the whole battery
And if doing the system correctly, buy a complete new battery bank.

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All I can add to the above is that a lead battery is not just multiple cells, but each cell is dozens of metal plates closely spaced. The results are pretty similar if one of those pates breaks free or otherwise shorts.

Simi 60 said:

As I've said before, here in Oz the 840 ah LFP bank we have build cost about $2000 less than the cheapest 880ah AGM

If buying on actual usable ah the LFP is considerably cheaper again

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The savings can be extended if the Lithium and inverters are used to replace generator(s) in a new build. In my full refit, new generators would have been 10s of thousands of dollars so I'm ahead from day one without even considering costs of ongoing reliability, maintenance, parts etc. I'm replacing 30 and 10 KVA generators with a large bank and solar array, with a el cheapo 3kva unit for diaster recovery only (no sun for a week).

To those that questioned where are the reports of the downsides to lithium, I've been using them for years in dive scooters. They really are plug and play once the owner realises how reliable they are. I spent the first season monitoring cell and string voltages, charge and discharge rates etc but soon realised that micro management isn't necessary. You just have to look at the penetration of lithium into all the different forms of storage to see how accepted and reliable they have become. Typically those campaigning against lithium have never used them and therefore have not seen the benefits or trivial downsides. Again, look at anecdotal evidence. Many have moved from lead to lithium but I don't know of anyone who has moved from lithium back to lead.

Reports of fires and explosions are very dramatic but limited to non Lifepo4 and then only after some form of extreme abuse or bad design. Clearly those raising the concern have never seen a lead acid incident. Typically they don't burn but explode sending hot sulfuric acid every where. Not pretty.

To the question of what we are using all this power for? Many vessels are power hungry because of equipment or occupants. Mine will have numerous residential appliances and a full dive platform. Like anything, usage also expands to meet availability. In my case, I'm sure AC usage will be less rigourously controlled, fresh water usage will expand etc. Why? Because we now can with so much power easily available at essentially zero ongoing cost and effort.

twistedtree said:

On the whole I think sail boaters spend more time at anchor using their batteries, so have been quicker to switch over.

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Sailboaters switch over because they have limited sources of charge making charging time (and the ability to run at partial states of charge) paramount. On a motorboat, these are normally much less of a consideration. Motor is running anytime you are moving with essentially unlimited charge capability. On a sailboat you may need to run the engine *only* to charge the batteries, you'd like it done quickly and with no 4 hour charge tail like LA batteries require.

DDW said:

Sailboaters switch over because they have limited sources of charge making charging time (and the ability to run at partial states of charge) paramount. On a motorboat, these are normally much less of a consideration. Motor is running anytime you are moving with essentially unlimited charge capability. .

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And then we anchor for a week or more getting nothing from it.
Not that we would have got much from the one hour run to the next anchorage

It's why I didn't waste well over a grand going down the alternator and regulator path and instead went big solar and now, batteries that actually perform

We don't even have an alt on the engine anymore, charge for starts instead comes from a $200 victron smart charger

"And with our LFP system I simply disconnect 1 of the 3 X 280ah @ 24v batteries and continue on with 2.
And with 2, I still have more usable ah than I had with the 880ah of AGM"

But what about the fire?

Aircraft have had ejection seats for 1/2 a century , deck mount the batts and just pull the RED handle?

FF said:

"And with our LFP system I simply disconnect 1 of the 3 X 280ah @ 24v batteries and continue on with 2.
And with 2, I still have more usable ah than I had with the 880ah of AGM"

But what about the fire?

Aircraft have had ejection seats for 1/2 a century , deck mount the batts and just pull the RED handle?

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With LFP the fire hazard is about the same as with LA. Uncontrolled discharge of the batteries causes the most excitement. The key is that LFP doesn't run away like other Li-Ion chemistries, and therefor the only type I would ever consider for a boat.

I think that a lot of the benefit of LiFeP04 batteries is realized when the boat is fully set up for their use, and is actually used at anchor for extended periods of time.

Also a lot of the perceived downsides to FLA use such as the need to fully recharge fairly often is unfairly used as a sales tool by the LiFeP04 marketing folks.

The fact is that a well designed FLA system will fully recharge pretty quickly in a power boat once underway mitigating the undercharging concerns. Also many/or most cruisers do not sit on one place for extended periods of time, they by their very nature anchor in a spot, spend at most a few days there and then they continue their travels.

FLA for me. Variations on this theme not worth the money IMHO.
LiFeP04 not ready for prime time, expensive & horror stories abound, even their biggest boating advocate, Calder, has changed his tune.

Brooksie said:

FLA for me. Variations on this theme not worth the money IMHO.
LiFeP04 not ready for prime time, expensive & horror stories abound, even their biggest boating advocate, Calder, has changed his tune.

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Can you point to some of these horror stories?

Codger2 said:

Since I'm now driving an all electric boat, I have spent countless hours researching all the various battery chemistries. The above comment on LifePO4 batteries is right on the money! Not to mention they are about half the weight of AGMs. Also, they don't have one drop of any kind of liquid and continually put out max power right down to fully discharged. Yes, they are expensive but when you consider the expected number of cycles a FLA or AGM will give you (200-300?) the LIFEPO4s will give you 2000-3000 before failing. More & more golf carts and electric vehicles are switching to LIFEPO4s.

Click on the link below and then scroll down to Lithium iron Phosphate (LIFEPO4) Probably the best article I've found on this subject.



https://ddmotorsystems.com/ElectricBoats.php

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Excellent article and you pointed out one factor I'd like to reemphasize. You said "Not to mention they are about half the weight of AGMs."

That can be a huge factor in changing out sometime later or in placement today. I have a friend with a 20' Flats boat and he and others with similar boats are all going with Lithium.

Brooksie said:

FLA for me. Variations on this theme not worth the money IMHO.
LiFeP04 not ready for prime time, expensive & horror stories abound, even their biggest boating advocate, Calder, has changed his tune.

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I’d love to hear more about this. Any writings from Calder? Or other pointers to the issues you are thinking about?

Mr. Calder, two months ago:

Note, most of his cautionary dialogue is about Lithium Ion technology. I think most casual dock talkers don't bother to distinguish LifePO4 from Lithium Ion.

Thanks for posting that. I found it a somewhat tedious video to watch, but glad I saw it to the end. I liked the 'fallacy of number of cycles' as well as the charge acceptance rate (vs AGM) comments.

The only other often-touted benefit of Li is reduced weight. Fine if you have a catamaran or flats boat or whatever that gets major benefit from lower weight, but for most trawlers its of little consequence

Alaskaflyer said:

Mr. Calder, two months ago:

Note, most of his cautionary dialogue is about Lithium Ion technology. I think most casual dock talkers don't bother to distinguish LifePO4 from Lithium Ion.

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Yeah, pretty pointless if not even talking the same batteries.

And also pretty pointless as he says most boats don't get used much
But for those of us that do

He also talks about the supposed high cost and not recouping outlay which may be true with lith ion, but no one in their right mind would use lith ion on a boat
but as I have found out, I can get more lifepo4 ah for less than agm, which disproves his supposed fallacy

ksanders said:

Imagine you are enjoying life in the Marquesas, or for that matter the Sea of Cortez, or the Exumas and you lost a specialized LiFeP04 battery.

Depending on how you designed your bank that might just be a pretty darn big deal, especially with the larger LiFeP04 batteries coming to the market.

How difficult will it be and how long will it take to get a replacement?

Now imagine the exact same scenario and you have a bank of FLA batteries, probably something along the lines of a L16.

How hard would it be to replace that battery? Not hard at all. You will probably find someone with it in stock in any decent sized town anywhere.

Now take this even further.... While you are waiting for your new LiFeP04 replacedment to be shipped to you, things are probably not so much fun on your boat. Why??? Because many LiFeP04 systems are designed to operate on the edge of their capacity.

Now take that FLA bank and imagine how things would work. Well, since you only generally operate your FLA bank to 50% capacity to increase it's lifespan you can still operate as normal until you get a replacement knowing you are simply reducing the effective life of your battery bank that cost you all of a couple thousand dollars in the first place. In the final analysis you probably won't see much if any difference in lifespan anyway since you will have a replacement battery installed as soon as you make port.

Boats are not just about having the latest greatest. They are about having a functional system that can survive things that happen to all equipment at sea.

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For that reason I specced my last new boat (in 2006) with AGM. Replaced my next boat's batteries with AGM when the FLA failed, and sadly am having to maintain the FLA batteries in my new/present boat because they were installed just prior to my purchase and although I am way too cheap to replace good batteries, I am enduring topping up every 3-6 months and that is a pain in the ars* that I really don't need. When they expire they will be replaced by AGM. Pretty astounding to me though that my entire banks (House/Main Engs start/BOth Thruster) take 2.5 gallons when topping up.

~A

I'd seen that video before and it is confusing and does no credit to either Cotes or Caulder. The both seem to interchange Lithium Ion and LiFePO4 battery technology in the conversation. Cotes can plead ignorance Caulder can't.

Alaskaflyer said:

Mr. Calder, two months ago:

Note, most of his cautionary dialogue is about Lithium Ion technology. I think most casual dock talkers don't bother to distinguish LifePO4 from Lithium Ion.

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Just watched it too.


Much is promotional for the Integral system, either intentional or unintentional.


The whole cycle things comes down to how you use the boat, or more accurately how you use the power system. This has been discussed here as well with many people correctly pointing out that unless you spend a bunch of time at anchor really utilizing your batteries, the benefits are much less.


I disagree with Nigel about the need for UL 1973 for boat systems. That standard is for large scale stationary power system like those used for grid power peak shaving, and for light rail system for capturing, storing, and returning regenerative power. You are talking about systems that would sink a recreational boat, not one that would power its house loads. If one wants that for peace of mind, no problem, but I don't see it as required by any stretch.


And the rest is stuff that's last year's news. Right, nobody sells marine LFP batteries rated for more than about .5C charging. And yes, a LA can accept a very large charge rate, but only for a little while before the voltage rises enough where you need to back off. And who does it in practice. For a 500Ah batter bank, 1C is 500A charging. Who does that? Even .5C is 250A, and you can only do that up to 50% charge according to Nigel, but most of us never discharge below that, so with 50% SOC as the starting point, the battery will almost immediately stop accepting that much current. An LFP, on the other hand, will soak it all up and do a full recharge in 2hrs.


BTW, all LFP cells are certified to DOT 38.3. They can't be shipped anywhere without that. It includes a bunch of very abusive testing like dead short circuit of fully charged cell, over charging, under charging, and my favorite, the puncture test. This is to ensure that if a bunch of cells are shipped together and something bad happens, you DON'T get a runaway fire, explosion, etc.


Many cells are also UL 1642 listed. 1642 is very similar to DOT 38.3, but a bit more stringent.

sean9c said:

I'd seen that video before and it is confusing and does no credit to either Cotes or Caulder. The both seem to interchange Lithium Ion and LiFePO4 battery technology in the conversation. Cotes can plead ignorance Caulder can't.

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The terminology is confusing.


LFP (LiFePO4) IS a lithium-ion battery. It is one of many different variants of Lithium Ion technologies. Others are NMC, LFC, LCA, etc. So saying Lithium-Ion is like saying lead-acid. Saying LFP or NMC is being more specific about what type of lithium-ion battery, and is like saying AGM, FLA, or carbon foam to more specifically identify a lead-acid battery type.

AlanT said:

For that reason I specced my last new boat (in 2006) with AGM. Replaced my next boat's batteries with AGM when the FLA failed, and sadly am having to maintain the FLA batteries in my new/present boat because they were installed just prior to my purchase and although I am way too cheap to replace good batteries, I am enduring topping up every 3-6 months and that is a pain in the ars* that I really don't need. When they expire they will be replaced by AGM. Pretty astounding to me though that my entire banks (House/Main Engs start/BOth Thruster) take 2.5 gallons when topping up.

~A

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My house was powered by a bank of Surrette deep cycle batteries for about 10 years. In the last 3-4 years, it would take 10-12 gallons of distilled water to top them up, and they needed it every 4 months or so. I DO NOT miss that.

Simi 60 said:

Can you point to some of these horror stories?

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If we confine the discussion to LFP, the one common theme to horror stories is $000's down the drain due to gross over/discharging.s. This is typically caused by considerable human or design errors but it is true that if voltages are maintained wildly out of spec the damage is permanent and irreversible.

https://youtu.be/0j0zcRXTDRk

The majority of other stories are either different chemistries or simply misinformed

GoneDiving said:

If we confine the discussion to LFP, the one common theme to horror stories is $000's down the drain due to gross over/discharging.s. This is typically caused by considerable human or design errors but it is true that if voltages are maintained wildly out of spec the damage is permanent and irreversible.

https://youtu.be/0j0zcRXTDRk

The majority of other stories are either different chemistries or simply misinformed

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Yeah but that's human error , not an issue with the battery and a simple fix if you work between the knees.

Simi 60 said:

Yeah but that's human error , not an issue with the battery and a simple fix if you work between the knees.

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I've long maintained that one of the under rated benefits of LFP is that because of the volumetric, mass and charging efficiencies it is so easy to engineer out many issues. Recharge rates, cloudy days and even human error SNAFUs can become inconsequential if copious amounts of storage takes up the same weight, volume etc as previous systems.

lithium battery my contact told me..

Hello, i have put in a heavy full traction after a talk with a hoppecke advisor,
they produce different type of cells for industrial use.

wath i did not now was that when lithium cells are charged they need a resting period to ceep there lifespan,

for the boat where we have partial charging (solar panels) and heavy power comsumtions they recomed wet full traction as the best choice, they are not cheap, heavy and take a lot of space

our setup i have a 11,5kw power pack who we discharce 70% then shore take over just to keep the 70% but no extra charging

every drop of solar power that charge the battery is fist used as power and if there is more power the shore stops and the solar / battery bank takes over till the battery bank drops back to 70% used.

i use the charger option if we go off shore tot top up the battery bank

No one has addressed fuel cells to charge the batteries, hmmmm

Simi 60 said:

He also talks about the supposed high cost and not recouping outlay which may be true with lith ion, but no one in their right mind would use lith ion on a boat
but as I have found out, I can get more lifepo4 ah for less than agm, which disproves his supposed fallacy

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The price for LFP has definitely been coming down. But it also depends on where you are in the world. It seems that AGMs are unusually expensive in your area, while for me, they're definitely cheaper than LFP. If I wanted to go for FLA, that would be even cheaper.