Sailor to Trawlerer

N4061 · Nov 23, 2021

Why the switch?

For those Sailers who have decided it was time to try a trawler I'm curious what you reasoning was? Was it the work required with sailing or the lack of comfort when compared to a trawler? Just curious as we explore the opposite transition - trawler to sailing.

Another question is "did you consider a motor sailor before a trawler and if not why? Thanks

John T. N4050, N4061, N3522, H38E - Former owners

mvweebles · Nov 23, 2021

N4061 said:
For those Sailers who have decided it was time to try a trawler I'm curious what you reasoning was? Was it the work required with sailing or the lack of comfort when compared to a trawler? Just curious as we explore the opposite transition - trawler to sailing.

Another question is "did you consider a motor sailor before a trawler and if not why? Thanks

John T. N4050, N4061, N3522, H38E - Former owners

I transitioned many years ago. I enjoy traveling by water and am not that hung up on power vs sail. For most usage, power boat has fewer barriers to getting out and on water than sailboat. If sailing were more approachable, that's what I'd do.

If I had a desire to cross an ocean, go to the south Pacific, or circumnavigate, I'd likely go on a sailboat, probably a motorsailor type boat.

Thanks for sharing -

Peter

KnotYet · Nov 23, 2021

N4061 said:
For those Sailers who have decided it was time to try a trawler I'm curious what you reasoning was? Was it the work required with sailing or the lack of comfort when compared to a trawler? Just curious as we explore the opposite transition - trawler to sailing.

Another question is "did you consider a motor sailor before a trawler and if not why? Thanks

John T. N4050, N4061, N3522, H38E - Former owners

I agree with mvweebles, and my last boat was a great sailing motorsailer.

After 15+ years of ownership I realized I was motoring almost exclusively.
This was mainly due to the convenience of not having to do most of the sail
handling myself when taking non-sailors out for the day.

I was also spoiled by having a solid Perkins 4-236 that made motoring a pleasure.

My perfect trawler would probably have a useable sail plan like a Diesel Duck ketch.

dhays · Nov 23, 2021

N4061 said:
For those Sailers who have decided it was time to try a trawler I'm curious what you reasoning was? Was it the work required with sailing or the lack of comfort when compared to a trawler? Just curious as we explore the opposite transition - trawler to sailing.

Another question is "did you consider a motor sailor before a trawler and if not why? Thanks

John T. N4050, N4061, N3522, H38E - Former owners

I moved from a lifetime of sail to power about 5-6 years ago. Our last sailboat was a Catalina 400. VERY nice boat! However, due to some back issues, I found that I would have a lot of back pain from standing at the helm for long. Handling sails was never an issue, but standing at the helm was tough.

The other consideration is where we sailed. Most of our time is in Puget Sound. In general, when the weather is really nice, there isn't much wind. Since the prevailing winds in the South Sound are out of the South and in the North Sound it is out of the North, half the time the wind is on your bow since you are always traveling North or Sound. Add to that the significant current many places in the Sound and you realize that the amount of time actually sailing, is very little. Sailing in pleasant weather, even less so.

Of course those days when the conditions are good, it is glorious. 5 hour runs flying a spinnaker are absolutely wonderful.

So most of the time we were under power, either motorsailing or not. Also when it is cold, and wet (3/4 of the year) I would be in the cockpit in my foulies and my wife would be warm and snug below. I didn't mind, but it didn't provide much together time.

So we made the switch and it was the right one. My daughter still hasn't completely forgiven us for selling the sailboat, but she and her family enjoy our current boat.

IntoTheBlue · Nov 24, 2021

rslifkin said:
The 70 - 80% recommendation isn't generally 80% power, but 80% RPM (unless the engine gives a spec that max continuous power is more than this). 80% RPM is closer to 50 - 60% power along a prop curve. Most engines that aren't rated for heavy duty commercial or continuous duty use will live a short life if actually run at 80% power (more like 90% RPM).

Any engine can handle being run at less than max continuous without issue, especially if it's periodically run harder to get everything good and hot. Some designs do start to show issues when power is reduced too far, but the limit varies widely between engines. Some will burn clean enough and get warm enough to be happy running just a few hundred RPM above idle at maybe 10% of max power. Others need to be worked harder due to either not staying warm enough under very light loads or due to poor fuel metering and injection at low RPM causing a poor burn and making them soot up.

Like I said, I'm not a diesel engineer. This comes up once and a while and I make sure that I make it known that I'm sharing what I have been told (in this case by Mac Boring at a diesel class, as well as from mechanics at certified service dealers). I've been on boats with Smartcraft which displays load, which was very close to % of RPM.

In any case, I find it only right to let someone who is looking for a trawler for the first time that it is something to consider.

Leo Reise · Nov 24, 2021

Good morning. We were sailors for 50+ years, purchased our Island Gypsy 32 in the fall of 2019. BTW- we looked fair a couple of years.
Of the makes you listed, I would be very surprised to find a 350 ph gas engine. My experience is they would all have Diesel engines - some with one & others with two.
Sipping fuel is a relative term. Our sailboat was gas powered and when running, burned about a gallon an hour with a 20 gallon tank. Our trawler burns about 1.5 gallons an hour, 1.5 knots faster and has a range of 900 nm. (Other respondents will have different figures according to their boat.)
Our reason for going to a trawler had nothing to do with fuel burn but the lifestyle we wanted. Even for our boat size it was like moving from a 600 sqft. studio apt to a 1600 sqft. home.
My suggestion - make a list of “must haves” and “nice to have” and deal breakers. Contact a broker with the list AND continue your own search.
When you find “the One” get a survey on both the boat and engine.
My thoughts. Good hunting

healhustler · Nov 24, 2021

Tabeguache said:
Could you explain to this newby what you mean when you refer to a powerboat "capable of confidently going places sailors go"? It's obviously not a draft issue. Seaworthiness? Range?

Yes, what I meant was that the Willard 40 in particular is a very capable and sea worthy vessel. There are very few affordable (under 250K) trawlers out there that could manage sea states taken for granted by sailboats.

mvweebles · Nov 24, 2021

healhustler said:
Yes, what I meant was that the Willard 40 in particular is a very capable and sea worthy vessel. There are very few affordable (under 250K) trawlers out there that could manage sea states taken for granted by sailboats.

Willards are a comfortable choice for ex-sailors. Similar systems and they appeal to the sailor sensibility of no nonsense strength.

That said, I doubt a Willard 40 would achieve CE Rating A without modification. While very stable (e.g. favorable AVS), and due to small engine size the engine room vents are likely manageable to mitigate down-flooding risk, but the window glass area and ability to de-water the cockpit would keep it in the CE B category, same as many others such as thr Nordic Tug 42.

Despite being a Willard owner with a vested interest in hyping the lore, I am bound by integrity to say there are many, many reasons to own a Willard. But in my opinion, the seaworthyness is over stated.

That said, CE B rating is more than enough for my tastes. Design to Force 8 conditions - sustained winds to 40 kts, seas to 13-feet significant height (meaning a third may be higher). These are serious conditions in any boat under 65 feet or so and should be avoided.

Peter

cardude01 · Nov 24, 2021

My boat supposedly has an A ocean rating, but with the big windows and tiny cockpit drains I don’t see it.

I know personally I can’t handle 13 foot plus seas. Heck I can barely handle 6’ waves.

rslifkin · Nov 24, 2021

Boat will stay intact and boat will keep crew intact are definitely 2 very different things.

Hippocampus · Nov 24, 2021

We transitioned due to wife being unsafe on the foredeck.
Boat was on the hard in Grenada. I was sick and to fly out the next day. Asked her to check water tanks were drained. She fell 11’ from top of the ladder and broke her ankle in three places. Now healed but her balance is just enough off as to be unsafe on passage. I remain in love with oceanic passage making but love my wife more. So the only new boat I ever spec’d and built (Outbound46) was sold. Now on a Nordic tug 42. After 8 years going New England to leewards our plan was the azores then Med. That dream is over. New dream starts. As they say a man who has known the ocean is ruin for land. Loved the deep water now will love the skinny water as well.
Respectfully disagree about weather. In a proper boat and a experienced crew weather is part of package. You hear different estimates and numbers have shifted for the better with improved weather routing. Still, about 80% is below fresh breeze and majority of 8 and above is brief (line squalls, t storms and the like.) The problem is storm force for days. Even then with a proper vessel you deploy the jsd, button up, lay on the sole and wait for it to go by. In 35 + years I been in one storm. Multiple gales but only one storm. Think for most recreational blue water sailors that’s about average. Issue you see now is 2 footitis is a thing of the past. In the past people would do regional coastal, then long jump near shore . Then a brief ocean race or two like Marion Bermuda or Halifax. Then passages. First as crew . Then as captain. So they would have seen gradiually worse and worse conditions. This would be in the company of more experienced people. The fear of the unknown would be conquered.
Now people work their butts off and go buy the biggest baddest boat they can. Maybe they’ve been doing regional coastal for decades but they have no experience of sustained serious weather. Fear is paralyzing. Poor preparation occurs. Bad decisions are made. Was part of Salty Dawg fleet that was caught out. Many boats requested and received outside assistance. Many turned back. Many were damaged. But many had an uneventful sail. Got to know this group fairly well. Those who had an uneventful sail had one thing in common from what I could tell. All went through the 2’itis. The gradual transition as crew and captain to further horizons. If that’s your goal crew for others then captain that transit. As captain learn from your crew. Never stop learning. Don’t think motor or sail makes much difference except fewer blue water recreational motor is made in mom and pop sizes. No issue taking a 28’ Bristol Channel cutter or a Westsail round the clock or 40’ Nordie. See 80’ motor I wouldn’t take out of sight of land. But as voyaging under power has proven there’s no real obstacle to a mom and pop doing blue water and experiencing serious weather. The problem isn’t the boat v crew. The problem is the crew hasn’t put in the dedication and prep work to be able to work the boat to its capabilities. That takes time and the gradual accumulation of experience. Not taught in a course nor a book.
Still, totally agree with Peter. It’s much more difficult to produce a BWB motor vessel at a reasonable price point than sailboat. All the things that improve quality of life in power over sail are likely detrimental to a seaworthy ocean boat. Those wide open spaces makes moving around hazardous. Those wonderful views from inside increase down flooding risks. Designing to move above hull speed makes getting to an acceptable AVS problematic. Don’t accept the EU rating system as a measure. That only applies for the moment the vessel first splashes. Any cruising boat will get worked hard and age over time . All to often have seen A rated vessels at build come nowhere close to being a BWB after as short as a year or two. Realize when first set up provisions concerning durability were curtailed. The many production boat builders had their say. View that system as the floor. Next question is how does that vessel hold up with actual use. Have more trust in Norse, Lloyds and ABYC than anything EU says.
There’s a reason N,KK and others have their rep. Stick built and strong even after being cruised extensively if maintained. Like Peter think I’m on a good boat. But there’s no question in my mind it’s not a BWB so won’t be used as such.

Scooby5959 · Nov 25, 2021

KnotYet said:
I agree with mvweebles, and my last boat was a great sailing motorsailer.

After 15+ years of ownership I realized I was motoring almost exclusively.
This was mainly due to the convenience of not having to do most of the sail
handling myself when taking non-sailors out for the day.

I was also spoiled by having a solid Perkins 4-236 that made motoring a pleasure.

My perfect trawler would probably have a useable sail plan like a Diesel Duck ketch.

Couldn’t agree more good luck finding one . I mentioned the duck a few days ago and told I was a inexperience green horn, didn’t know anything but I just fell under the spell of The guy that wrote the book on them .And due to that inexperience I would give up all the comfort Of a proper trawler with a covered deck space or whatever he likes . Being a greenhorn I was unable to pick good weather and needed a boat that can handle the perfect storm

ddw36 · Nov 25, 2021

Sailor > Trawlor?

mvweebles · Nov 25, 2021

Hippocampus said:
We transitioned due to wife being unsafe on the foredeck.
Boat was on the hard in Grenada. I was sick and to fly out the next day. Asked her to check water tanks were drained. She fell 11’ from top of the ladder and broke her ankle in three places. Now healed but her balance is just enough off as to be unsafe on passage. I remain in love with oceanic passage making but love my wife more. So the only new boat I ever spec’d and built (Outbound46) was sold. Now on a Nordic tug 42. After 8 years going New England to leewards our plan was the azores then Med. That dream is over. New dream starts. As they say a man who has known the ocean is ruin for land. Loved the deep water now will love the skinny water as well.
Respectfully disagree about weather. In a proper boat and a experienced crew weather is part of package. You hear different estimates and numbers have shifted for the better with improved weather routing. Still, about 80% is below fresh breeze and majority of 8 and above is brief (line squalls, t storms and the like.) The problem is storm force for days. Even then with a proper vessel you deploy the jsd, button up, lay on the sole and wait for it to go by. In 35 + years I been in one storm. Multiple gales but only one storm. Think for most recreational blue water sailors that’s about average. Issue you see now is 2 footitis is a thing of the past. In the past people would do regional coastal, then long jump near shore . Then a brief ocean race or two like Marion Bermuda or Halifax. Then passages. First as crew . Then as captain. So they would have seen gradiually worse and worse conditions. This would be in the company of more experienced people. The fear of the unknown would be conquered.
Now people work their butts off and go buy the biggest baddest boat they can. Maybe they’ve been doing regional coastal for decades but they have no experience of sustained serious weather. Fear is paralyzing. Poor preparation occurs. Bad decisions are made. Was part of Salty Dawg fleet that was caught out. Many boats requested and received outside assistance. Many turned back. Many were damaged. But many had an uneventful sail. Got to know this group fairly well. Those who had an uneventful sail had one thing in common from what I could tell. All went through the 2’itis. The gradual transition as crew and captain to further horizons. If that’s your goal crew for others then captain that transit. As captain learn from your crew. Never stop learning. Don’t think motor or sail makes much difference except fewer blue water recreational motor is made in mom and pop sizes. No issue taking a 28’ Bristol Channel cutter or a Westsail round the clock or 40’ Nordie. See 80’ motor I wouldn’t take out of sight of land. But as voyaging under power has proven there’s no real obstacle to a mom and pop doing blue water and experiencing serious weather. The problem isn’t the boat v crew. The problem is the crew hasn’t put in the dedication and prep work to be able to work the boat to its capabilities. That takes time and the gradual accumulation of experience. Not taught in a course nor a book.
Still, totally agree with Peter. It’s much more difficult to produce a BWB motor vessel at a reasonable price point than sailboat. All the things that improve quality of life in power over sail are likely detrimental to a seaworthy ocean boat. Those wide open spaces makes moving around hazardous. Those wonderful views from inside increase down flooding risks. Designing to move above hull speed makes getting to an acceptable AVS problematic. Don’t accept the EU rating system as a measure. That only applies for the moment the vessel first splashes. Any cruising boat will get worked hard and age over time . All to often have seen A rated vessels at build come nowhere close to being a BWB after as short as a year or two. Realize when first set up provisions concerning durability were curtailed. The many production boat builders had their say. View that system as the floor. Next question is how does that vessel hold up with actual use. Have more trust in Norse, Lloyds and ABYC than anything EU says.
There’s a reason N,KK and others have their rep. Stick built and strong even after being cruised extensively if maintained. Like Peter think I’m on a good boat. But there’s no question in my mind it’s not a BWB so won’t be used as such.

I have been slow to come around to the CE Rating system. Im only partially there. Mostly supportive that there is a system even if flawed. I'm sure builders 'study for the exam' so the rating classification is a maximum vs a minimum. But at least there is something that correlates design with a use case.

A word about that use csse: for CE A, above 40 kts wind and 13 foot seas (Force 8). Note that's combined. Seeing 40 kts is uncommon but not rare. Seeing 13 foot seas is uncommon for recreational boaters. Seeing them together is really, really bad weather because it drives the period between waves down to single digit seconds which takes a lot of atmospheric energy.

Nordhavn builds a nice boat. Well thought out and well executed with strong customer support network. Those are all good reasons to recommend the brand. But few need the design and I wish so many posters would think twice before recommending them so quickly to newbies. Many transitioning sailors have excellent seamanship skills and can safely and comfortably move a wide spectrum of boats on long coastal passages. Someone may want and can afford the extra insurance of a CE A boat (or equivalent), but too many on forums like this immedialy jump to the recommendation that you need an N or KK. These are of course nice boats which is reason enough to own one. But very, very few need them and even then, just for a small fraction of their boating time.

In short: The chorus of recommendation is misleading. Hippocampus has been a great example of selecting the right boat for his usage and, failing that, adjusting his usage slightly to adapt to the boat he was able to purchase. That's a good example of seamanship skills.

Peter

mvweebles · Nov 25, 2021

Scooby5959 said:
Couldn’t agree more good luck finding one . I mentioned the duck a few days ago and told I was a inexperience green horn, didn’t know anything but I just fell under the spell of The guy that wrote the book on them .And due to that inexperience I would give up all the comfort Of a proper trawler with a covered deck space or whatever he likes . Being a greenhorn I was unable to pick good weather and needed a boat that can handle the perfect storm

That would be me who said you were a newbie. I said it because you are so forceful in defining a trawler in a narrow manner - obviously a disciple of George Beuhler (RIP). I met George long before he was famous, and I am very familiar with the evolution of Seahorse Marine.

I pinned you as a rare type of newbie because you act and write like a very special subset - those who are so confident of their book-formed opinion that they believe they have earned the right to forcefully and obnoxiously interject. They wantonly derail and hijack threads. They use remedial argumentation techniques and mistake their ignorance as genius because they are the only person who sees the dim light they see. Comes off as drivel.

This rare breed of newbie is insecure about their credentials and pontificates about outlandish accompaniments that do not have the ring of truth. They form opinions and cannot see past them. Ford Lehman bad. Diesel Duck good. Wet exhaust bad. Dry exhaust good. Dock queen whatever. That type of simplistic thinking is the hallmark of early learning and development. and is usially a springboard for discovery. It's important because it creates a context to be inquisitive and we've all been there. But I guess it's possible for someone to never advance past this stage. The boating version of "failure to launch." To never use question marks at the end of sentences.

If you're not that special (and fortunately rare) class of newbie but rather just arrogant snd obnoxious by nature, well, I apologize.

Peter

Hippocampus · Nov 25, 2021

Scooby please read Peter’s posts understanding there’s a difference between wisdom gained by experience and knowledge. He posts much wisdom. There’s a bit of naval history that may inform your thinking.
George was enamored by trollers not trawlers. A hull form with more rocker and having hard chines. This allowed simple strong, inexpensive construction in wood while preserving relatively low frontal plane and parasitic drag hence requiring low HP while operating in full displacement speeds. Due to the chines the harmonic rolling frequency was favorable while working these fishboats. Fuel costs kept moderate and popularity in the NW increased. He astutely saw this hull form was suitable for voyaging recreational power craft. Adding fin stabilization to these vessels markly increases expense and complexity requiring increase electrons +/or hydraulics. So fish +/sails are used as stabilization. Both have significant inherent problems in coastal use that can’t be circumvented. Sails don’t work unless loaded. Fish are problematic in skinny water. So if your use is voyaging the Ducks are a viable choice as compared to soft chined or round hulls but for near shore or coastal particularly when done in steel with its issues may not be the best choice for most of us. You live on a boat. Those specialized for one use pattern limit your quality of life in other patterns. When boat hunting the DD 46 and 42 were near the top of our list. They are fine vessels. Came very close to buying a heavily modified 46 . He wanted $650k but with his modifications boat was good value. However even when we were voyaging that activity was less than 10% of usage. Came to the decision there are better platforms for our usage. All boats are compromises. Educate yourself not only as to the benefits of a particular hull form but also to its negatives. Peter was only trying to make you aware of that fact. Go get a DD. They’re a fine boat and excellent value. Just realize they are a compromise as are all boats.

mvweebles · Nov 25, 2021

Hippocampus- did those DDs you looked at have wet exhaust? I assume they were steel Seahorse built. Beuhler and Seahorse both evolved over time. Both wanted dry exhaust though for different reasons. Beuhler was KISS incarnate. Seahorse was trying to market as affordable alternative to Nordhavn. I worked with an early owner - Apparently neither Beuhler nor Seahorse had much experience with dry exhaust in a deep engine room of a boat with living space above the engine room. According to the owner, Seahorse eventually gave up a on dry stack and went wet. Curious what system they used in later boats.

BTW - that early owner was interesting in his own right. He brought the DD38 on it's own bottom from China. He had very little prior boating experience and did the trip singlehanded to California with just one or two stops as he didn't have harbor charts. I met him at a TrawlerFest in Alameda in San Francisco. He sheepishly asked me for some docking lessons as he had only docked the boat a few times and was frequently single handing. Turns out half his problem was his boat had the PH door on stbd side but had a RH prop so stern pulled to port when docking. Hopefully Seahorse paired things a bit better on future builds.

Peter

EDIT. Interesting article from Beuhler on dry stack heat. Maybe it was only Seahorse that wanted dry stack for marketing purposes. I do remember Beuhler being a proponent of Deutz air cooled engines. He definitely had a unique perspective.

https://georgebuehler.com/stack-heat/

Scooby5959 · Nov 25, 2021

mvweebles said:
That would be me who said you were a newbie. I said it because you are so forceful in defining a trawler in a narrow manner - obviously a disciple of George Beuhler (RIP). I met George long before he was famous, and I am very familiar with the evolution of Seahorse Marine.

I pinned you as a rare type of newbie because you act and write like a very special subset - those who are so confident of their book-formed opinion that they believe they have earned the right to forcefully and obnoxiously interject. They wantonly derail and hijack threads. They use remedial argumentation techniques and mistake their ignorance as genius because they are the only person who sees the dim light they see. Comes off as drivel.

This rare breed of newbie is insecure about their credentials and pontificates about outlandish accompaniments that do not have the ring of truth. They form opinions and cannot see past them. Ford Lehman bad. Diesel Duck good. Wet exhaust bad. Dry exhaust good. Dock queen whatever. That type of simplistic thinking is the hallmark of early learning and development. and is usially a springboard for discovery. It's important because it creates a context to be inquisitive and we've all been there. But I guess it's possible for someone to never advance past this stage. The boating version of "failure to launch." To never use question marks at the end of sentences.

If you're not that special (and fortunately rare) class of newbie but rather just arrogant snd obnoxious by nature, well, I apologize.

Peter

You call me arrogant and obnoxious or whatever terms you use fine .I’m not looking for any friends I have my wife and my dog that’s enough for me . I try to keep my responses short and to the point now my writing skills are horrible I Taught myself how to read and write .I don’t think I should have to submit a résumé do you have my point taken seriously especially when it’s so obviously right.I bought my first Taiwanese trawler in 1987 and rarely kept one for more than a year. I’m certain I Have owned more than 20 of them all old as of late anyways neglected Dock queens.Oh by the way I never learn punctuation either I don’t think it’s all that hard to understand my writing but OK.You Right write quite well and your punctuation and your vocabulary is quite good How are you at Tigg welding .As far as Me being arrogant and obnoxious OK.One thing at a time 1. Dry exhaust Every boat I’ve ever owned had wet exhaust I’ve seen many boat engines either damaged or ruined by poorly designed or maintained wet exhaust . But it is the industry standard for recreational boats. I’ve come to the conclusion that I think it should be the other way around for obvious reasons ,If for no other reason adapting an industrial engine would be common place And make it much easier for people to re-power their boats ,a lot of boats get a Abandoned because of bad engines .I wouldn’t buy a boat that needed to be re-powered because it didn’t pencil out #2 Lehman engines again I’ve owned more than 20 of them am very familiar with that engine which is why I’ve come to this conclusion , they’re not worth investing any money in I personally think they would make a better boat anchor they weren’t a particularly good engine to begin with and they haven’t produced them for several decades now. I wonder why? The Detroit Series 71 is a very good engine also an old engine a good one ,or a Cummings n14 both worth rebuilding if you Ever need to .This isn’t opinion it is fact call it arrogance if you like but I doesn’t change anything .I could go on and on it’s already getting too long , how they power boats twin engine north of 200 hp each to go on extra four knots not smart in my opinion .#3 George Bueller ,Diesel duck,Seahorse Marine never heard any of these names until fairly recently. I was surprised that somebody had came to the same conclusion I have come to .I never heard anybody talking about it .First diesel duck boat I ever saw was when I was sitting on the back deck of my 42 Ponderosa also a Taiwanese boat one of the better ones .I saw this boat and I couldn’t figure out exactly what it was but I knew I liked it .I had no idea seahorse marine even existed but it was nice to hear about somebody finally building a boat that I agree with this is enough of my drivel I don’t know who is the bigger AW me or you You decide don’t care

mvweebles · Nov 25, 2021

Scooby5959 said:
Dry exhaust Every boat I’ve ever owned had wet exhaust I’ve seen many boat engines either damaged or ruined by poorly designed or maintained wet exhaust . But it is the industry standard for recreational boats. I’ve come to the conclusion that I think it should be the other way around for obvious reasons ,If for no other reason adapting an industrial engine would be common place And make it much easier for people to re-power their boats ,a lot of boats get a Abandoned because of bad engines .I wouldn’t buy a boat that needed to be re-powered because it didn’t pencil out

You might want to start a separate thread on dry vs wet for your NT26. There are some interesting nuances that I've learned on this forum that have steered me away from dry to wet. I was also surprised at the article off Beuhlers website that I posted up-thread that cites enough challenges with dry that he proposed wet exhaust (albeit with an air cooler engine) .

Good luck with whatever direction you chose. Pictures are always exciting

Peter

bowball · Nov 25, 2021

mvweebles said:
That would be me who said you were a newbie. I said it because you are so forceful in defining a trawler in a narrow manner - obviously a disciple of George Beuhler (RIP). I met George long before he was famous, and I am very familiar with the evolution of Seahorse Marine.

I pinned you as a rare type of newbie because you act and write like a very special subset - those who are so confident of their book-formed opinion that they believe they have earned the right to forcefully and obnoxiously interject. They wantonly derail and hijack threads. They use remedial argumentation techniques and mistake their ignorance as genius because they are the only person who sees the dim light they see. Comes off as drivel.

This rare breed of newbie is insecure about their credentials and pontificates about outlandish accompaniments that do not have the ring of truth. They form opinions and cannot see past them. Ford Lehman bad. Diesel Duck good. Wet exhaust bad. Dry exhaust good. Dock queen whatever. That type of simplistic thinking is the hallmark of early learning and development. and is usially a springboard for discovery. It's important because it creates a context to be inquisitive and we've all been there. But I guess it's possible for someone to never advance past this stage. The boating version of "failure to launch." To never use question marks at the end of sentences.

If you're not that special (and fortunately rare) class of newbie but rather just arrogant snd obnoxious by nature, well, I apologize.

Peter

There’s a lot of wisdom in this post.

ranger58sb · Nov 26, 2021

Paragraphs are a good thing.

-Chris

Hippocampus · Nov 26, 2021

We were interested in MobyDuck and Mauri. Very different approaches to using the same basic hull. Ended up Mauri was of more interest to us but due to Covid restrictions the logistics were just too difficult. The thought that went into Moby Duck was quite evident and she’s a great full time long distance cruising platform but cost of ownership didn’t make sense. You need to consider cost in selling price out and time to sell her. Appreciated when I sold the sailboat got full ask on first offer. Was sold before she hit yacht world. Think how limited the market is for true BWB that needs to be part of the equation. GRP Ns, KKs and the like are apparently rarely used to their capabilities so turn over is rapid and at or near ask. Can’t count on that with one offs or single purpose BWBs except for those exceptions. Even a drop dead gorgeous Artnautica 58 has sat on the market much longer than one would expect.
BTW- while practicing medicine in order to help keep my brain straight went through the welding course at the local vol tech. Learned TIG, MIG, stick and how to play with plasma cutting and the like. Was great fun and got good enough to pull puddles that passed to be certified weren’t heat distorted even using thin Al. Could use some improvement in stick and when doing SS but otherwise feel very comfortable I can do what I want particularly with a millermatic. Difficult with forums to know the skill,set, background and experience of who you’re talking with Scooby. A poster here signs with a wonderful phrase pointing out everyone you meet has something they can teach you. I like to believe when you stop learning they have better thrown dirt in your face or they soon will.

Scooby5959 · Nov 26, 2021

Hippocampus said:
We were interested in MobyDuck and Mauri. Very different approaches to using the same basic hull. Ended up Mauri was of more interest to us but due to Covid restrictions the logistics were just too difficult. The thought that went into Moby Duck was quite evident and she’s a great full time long distance cruising platform but cost of ownership didn’t make sense. You need to consider cost in selling price out and time to sell her. Appreciated when I sold the sailboat got full ask on first offer. Was sold before she hit yacht world. Think how limited the market is for true BWB that needs to be part of the equation. GRP Ns, KKs and the like are apparently rarely used to their capabilities so turn over is rapid and at or near ask. Can’t count on that with one offs or single purpose BWBs except for those exceptions. Even a drop dead gorgeous Artnautica 58 has sat on the market much longer than one would expect.
BTW- while practicing medicine in order to help keep my brain straight went through the welding course at the local vol tech. Learned TIG, MIG, stick and how to play with plasma cutting and the like. Was great fun and got good enough to pull puddles that passed to be certified weren’t heat distorted even using thin Al. Could use some improvement in stick and when doing SS but otherwise feel very comfortable I can do what I want particularly with a millermatic. Difficult with forums to know the skill,set, background and experience of who you’re talking with Scooby. A poster here signs with a wonderful phrase pointing out everyone you meet has something they can teach you. I like to believe when you stop learning they have better thrown dirt in your face or they soon will.

I want to thank you this is the kind of response I was hoping to get . Although my writing style isn’t conducive to this type of response I guess . I have been obsessed lately on Specing engines and Controllable pitch propellers .75 hp with a controllable pitch propeller and near 10 knot cruise for a 58 ft Boat Now that’s what I’m talking about . The 58 artnautica Is an interesting design modern and sleek if you ask me .His webpage on the boat is an interesting read .Wasn’t able to find a used one or even a recently sold used one .A new one Is probably a million dollars maybe the reason that the one you mentioned was for sale for so long .It would be nice if these boats were the norm instead of the exception they don’t have to be 60 ft long .Although to get a 10 knot cruise They would need to be .I’ve been trying to find a controllable pitch propeller ,the only thing that I have seen is tens of thousands of dollars not doable for me .The auto prop seems interesting it automatically adjusts supposedly accomplishing the same thing ,although I do wonder, that propeller is north of $5000 Another hard pill to swallow for me .But you really do need a way of getting just the right pitch for efficiency .If anybody knows of a controllable pitch system that’s affordable I would be grateful .As a sidenote I just recently replaced a welder that was stolen with an Everlast 250 amp AC tig welder. I like it quite well .Fraction of the cost of an industry standard Miller you know Chinese stuff It has all the bells and whistle’s and I can weld aluminum with it

slowgoesit · Nov 26, 2021

It's been DECADES since our engine was last produced!

Alas, woe is me, I am crushed (insert suitable cries and lamentations) to discover that my boat and it's drive train are totally unsuitable to our intended use of sailing in water deeper than say 10', or (horrors of horrors) perhaps even occasionally out of sight of land!

I didn't realize that whether or not they are still produced is THE litmus test for whether a specific engine was a good engine or not. Here I was thinking we had bought a boat of good design, and with a good engine :nonono:

. I guess I'll have to bow to superior knowledge on engines and especially since our engine was last manufactured in 1994

I mean, it's been DECADES since my engine was last produced . . . so according to the obviously vast experience and knowledge out there, it is obviously only good for . . . what was it you said? Ah, yes, a boat anchor, I believe you said.

Here I am now, a sadly wiser and better educated mariner due to your sage advice.

Looking forward to your next piece of wisdom that I can scribe into stone.

By the way, our 50' Beebe Passagemaker is powered with a Gardner 8LXB, coupled to a Hundested CPP through a reducing gear.

Did anyone notice that I used sentences, punctuation, and even the occasional (wait for it) PARAGRAPH in my above post?

Scooby5959 · Nov 26, 2021

slowgoesit said:
Alas, woe is me, I am crushed (insert suitable cries and lamentations) to discover that my boat and it's drive train are totally unsuitable to our intended use of sailing in water deeper than say 10', or (horrors of horrors) perhaps even occasionally out of sight of land!

I didn't realize that whether or not they are still produced is THE litmus test for whether a specific engine was a good engine or not. Here I was thinking we had bought a boat of good design, and with a good engine. I guess I'll have to bow to superior knowledge on engines and especially since our engine was last manufactured in 1994 I mean, it's been DECADES since my engine was last produced . . . so according to the obviously vast experience and knowledge out there, it is obviously only good for . . . what was it you said? Ah, yes, a boat anchor, I believe you said.

Here I am now, a sadly wiser and better educated mariner due to your sage advice.

Looking forward to your next piece of wisdom that I can scribe into stone.

By the way, our 50' Beebe Passagemaker is powered with a Gardner 8LXB, coupled to a Hundested CPP through a reducing gear.

Did anyone notice that I used sentences, punctuation, and even the occasional (wait for it) PARAGRAPH in my above post?

Who am I to disappoint you I stand by my statement about the Ford Lehman ,if my drum winch was larger I might just use one for a boat anchor just for the fun of it .anyways getting past that I don’t know too much about the gardeners what I do know they’re supposed to be a very good engine old school of course slow turning motors accounts for a lot of the longevity, being able to repair one in pieces there’s another big plus ,parts are a rare expensive and hard to find .Detroit Se 71 will probably be a very good engine for your boat you can do all the same things repair individual cylinders, long-lived Great motors parts are everywhere and cheap as far as ccp Systems . Hundested units would be awesome if they didn’t cost tens of thousands of dollars ,I’m looking for something affordable if you happen to know anything about that .even an auto prop supposed to do the same thing is north of 5000 .I quite enjoy your sarcasm My favorite type of humor

slowgoesit · Nov 27, 2021

Scooby5959 said:
Who am I to disappoint you I stand by my statement about the Ford Lehman ,if my drum winch was larger I might just use one for a boat anchor just for the fun of it .anyways getting past that I don’t know too much about the gardeners what I do know they’re supposed to be a very good engine old school of course slow turning motors accounts for a lot of the longevity, being able to repair one in pieces there’s another big plus ,parts are a rare expensive and hard to find .Detroit Se 71 will probably be a very good engine for your boat you can do all the same things repair individual cylinders, long-lived Great motors parts are everywhere and cheap as far as ccp Systems . Hundested units would be awesome if they didn’t cost tens of thousands of dollars ,I’m looking for something affordable if you happen to know anything about that .even an auto prop supposed to do the same thing is north of 5000 .I quite enjoy your sarcasm My favorite type of humor

Actually, you may want to go back and rethink "what you know" about Gardners. Parts are exceptionally easy to procure, and not that expensive. Even if you can't find source them in the US for some reason, (and they are readily available in the PNW, can't speak to other markets) you can order gaskets, injectors, seals, pistons, rings, valves, to and including crank shafts, etc directly from England. One phone call to Mike at Gardner, and he can have stuff to you pretty much anywhere in the US next day air, or if you're not in a hurry, within 5 days regular post. Cost isn't much more than going down to the local store and getting Cat parts, or Cummins parts either. I was favorably impressed with his pricing. I gave him a short list of common parts for our engine, he quoted the prices, all on hand, and said less than a week to get them. Prices including shipping were VERY reasonable!

As to the Hundested, We bought used, so the original builder/buyer paid the premium for that setup, we merely benefited from his good taste! Parts are likewise readily available, and unless you are buying a whole new CPP actuating mechanism, or new prop, not all the unreasonable . . . and by the way, a spare blade for the prop was included in the spares on the boat when we purchased.

I am definitely NOT in agreement with you regarding the Ford Lehman engines. Had we not found our current boat, I was looking specifically for a boat with Lehmans, preferably 135's, or a John Deere, with a fall back of Perkins. Not a great fan of Volvo's, but I've never owned one personally, so I can't speak to them except from what I've been told by others who owned them and had problems. They appear to be good engines until you have problems . . . but they do have their proponents. I've owned Cats, Cummins, and even an old Norberg Knight, a marinized Hercules flat head gas engine. They all had their uses, and the best engine I ever had was the one I currently owned at the time. Play nice with them, whatever they are, treat them right, and they will treat YOU right!

ranger58sb · Nov 27, 2021

slowgoesit said:
Did anyone notice that I used sentences, punctuation, and even the occasional (wait for it) PARAGRAPH in my above post?

Hippocampus · Nov 27, 2021

SGT you have a boat to drool over with a great set up. Still wonder if the general thinking for LRCs has some merit. Each hull and engine has a sweet spot. The thoughtful builder or owner/operator will have the engine spec’d to match the sweet spot of the hull. So both will be operating in their sweet spots in the absence of the complexities of variable pitch and tuning to exhaust temperatures. Now with the decrease in intolerance of long operation at various loading parameters from electronically controlled common rail even more flexibility is available and less benefit from variable pitch.
So at this time do you think CPP is still necessary for a long distance cruising boat?

slowgoesit · Nov 28, 2021

Hippo, if SGT means me, I'll chime in. We weren't looking for a Gardner, nor CPP when we were shopping. I definitely do not think, nor did I EVER think that a CPP is a necessity for an LRC. I DO think that it is an added benefit, allowing the boater to operate the engine in it's "sweet spot' rpm at whatever speed you desire to travel. We have been operating at about 1400 rpm, and pitching the blades to obtain around 7 kts. EGT, or pyrometer at those settings is only around 290 to 310 deg F. Hardly even working the engine. I've got to set up a measured fuel supply and both draw and return to that supply for a sustained run in order to absolutely nail down the fuel burn, but I am thinking in the 2 gallon/hr range, including running the 12k 120v generator, which is hydraulically driven off of the main engine. So 3.5 nautical mpg isn't too shabby for a boat that currently weighs north of 80k lbs.
Having said that, I imagine that there are many LRC's that obtain similar results without Gardners or CPP's. . . . but I can't speak to those from personal experience. Perhaps others will chime in with personal experience.

rslifkin · Nov 28, 2021

I would think the benefit of a CPP would vary depending on the efficiency curve (and RPM range) of the engine in question. It would also be one option for taming a boat that's excessively fast at idle (due to an engine with a narrow RPM range and powered for more than hull speed).

The other time a CPP would show big benefits is if operating conditions of the boat are such that you see significant load changes and would never be able to truly prop the boat correctly with a fixed pitch prop. But that's rare for most non-commercial use.

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