Refrigerator

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

Propnut

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2017
Messages
163
Location
US
Vessel Name
Voyager
Vessel Make
41' PT Europa
Ever since reading OC Divers post about the Summit Refrigerator he installed and reading everything I can find about how to make a marine refrigerator cool properly I decided it would be easier to just copy Mr. Divers solution and purchase a Frost Free Summit Refrigerator with an ice maker. It’s ordered. Once it arrives I’ll take some before pictures and I’ll take pictures thru the install process. I’ve got new polypropylene water tanks. I’m going to install a 3M water filter for the ice maker. 3000 watt inverter is already installed on the boat. I do plan on purchasing a small portable inverter to have on the boat so in the event my main inverter fails , I’ve got a backup for the fridge. Wish me luck! I’ll let everyone know how this project turns out.
 
Congratulations! Hope the install goes well. Is your inverter pure sine wave?

Ted
 
Friends purchased a Summit fridge for their cabin and are surprised with the lower lower amp draw(500 watt pure sine wave inverter) compared to the previous fridge.
 
Inverter is a pure shine wave
 
It was a process, but the new refrigerator is installed and working great! IMG_3326.jpg
 
Yep, we did the same thing last summer. Dumped the Norcold and bought an LG 7.0 cubit foot high efficiency fridge on a dedicated inverter with an auto-transfer switch for a small fraction of the price of a new marine 12/110 fridge. Incredibly more efficient, draws 25 watts when it's cycling according to my meter. I keep thinking that meter has to be off but I've tested it three times and used somebody else's meter once just to make sure. Heck, just one single 20 watt G4 bulb (all replaced with LED's now) pulled almost as much as the refrigerator, and it freezes an ice tray solid in about 30 minutes.
 
Yep, we did the same thing last summer. Dumped the Norcold and bought an LG 7.0 cubit foot high efficiency fridge on a dedicated inverter with an auto-transfer switch for a small fraction of the price of a new marine 12/110 fridge. Incredibly more efficient, draws 25 watts when it's cycling according to my meter. I keep thinking that meter has to be off but I've tested it three times and used somebody else's meter once just to make sure. Heck, just one single 20 watt G4 bulb (all replaced with LED's now) pulled almost as much as the refrigerator, and it freezes an ice tray solid in about 30 minutes.

As much as I would like to have a refrigerator that draws 25 watts, I think that's wishful thinking. What is your compressor on / off cycle time? What does your inverter say? If it has a display, it generally will tell you amp draw. My refrigerator usually pulls 11 amps at 12+/- VDC. That would equal about 132 watts when running.

Where / how are you taking your wattage measurement?

Ted
 
What is the auto transfer switch for?

When it senses shore or generator power it switches to that instead of inverting from the batteries

Ted
 
As much as I would like to have a refrigerator that draws 25 watts, I think that's wishful thinking. What is your compressor on / off cycle time? What does your inverter say? If it has a display, it generally will tell you amp draw. My refrigerator usually pulls 11 amps at 12+/- VDC. That would equal about 132 watts when running.

Where / how are you taking your wattage measurement?

Ted

My Magic Chef 9.9 cu ft draws 7 DC amps and the inverter delivers 84W, with a loss of about 4 watts in the inverter. It runs enough to consume 850W per day on average.

25W does seem very low, but if it's a newer inverter style it may draw 25W continuous instead of cycling with a variable speed compressor.
 
As much as I would like to have a refrigerator that draws 25 watts, I think that's wishful thinking. What is your compressor on / off cycle time? What does your inverter say? If it has a display, it generally will tell you amp draw. My refrigerator usually pulls 11 amps at 12+/- VDC. That would equal about 132 watts when running.

Where / how are you taking your wattage measurement?

Ted

Well, I am talking about 25 watts at 110v (from the inverter) - so that's what, about a quarter amp at 110, so that's 2.0 amps at 12volts? But then I suck at electrical math, I shouldn't even try it, I'll only sound stupid. But I agree, either way, I thought that couldn't possibly be right, couldn't possibly be that low, but a few things have reassured me it may be right, or at least close. First, I used one of these, twice, both times starting the fridge from room temp for one hour.

https://www.gardnerbender.com/en/p/PM3100/Gardner-Bender-Energy-Usage-Power-Meter#

When it was running that meter showed it was pulling 25 watts. It cycled off after about 22 minutes starting from room temp and then didn't come on again for the rest of the hour. Of course this isn't NASA precision, people open the door, the (2-watt led) light goes on inside, varies by ambient temperature, and it's not quite full size, 7.0 cu ft., etc. Regular residential size usually starts around 10 cu ft or more I think. Our big honkin' high-end fridge at home is about 25 cu ft, so the boat fridge is small, but it's certainly not dorm-room tiny or a half fridge. But next, just in case that GB meter was inaccurate, I borrowed a Klein AC/DC clamp meter and got about the same result. And then LG's specs say it uses 220 kWh per year, which works out to what -- about 91 watts? Again, my electrical math may be off and I don't know how LG tests the consumption, but for me at about 75* in the cabin, once it comes down from starting room temp the fridge would then cycle about 10 - 15 minutes per hour. By my calculations, 25 watts for say 15 minutes per hour year round 24/7 is actually less than 220 kWh. The thing is so darn quiet it was very hard to tell when it was cycling, but I could see that GB meter jump from almost zero to 25 when it did cycle on.

Either way, compared to the dinosaur Norcold, it's amazingly efficient.
 
Well, I am talking about 25 watts at 110v (from the inverter) - so that's what, about a quarter amp at 110, so that's 2.0 amps at 12volts? But then I suck at electrical math, I shouldn't even try it, I'll only sound stupid. But I agree, either way, I thought that couldn't possibly be right, couldn't possibly be that low, but a few things have reassured me it may be right, or at least close. First, I used one of these, twice, both times starting the fridge from room temp for one hour.

https://www.gardnerbender.com/en/p/PM3100/Gardner-Bender-Energy-Usage-Power-Meter#

When it was running that meter showed it was pulling 25 watts. It cycled off after about 22 minutes starting from room temp and then didn't come on again for the rest of the hour. Of course this isn't NASA precision, people open the door, the (2-watt led) light goes on inside, varies by ambient temperature, and it's not quite full size, 7.0 cu ft., etc. Regular residential size usually starts around 10 cu ft or more I think. Our big honkin' high-end fridge at home is about 25 cu ft, so the boat fridge is small, but it's certainly not dorm-room tiny or a half fridge. But next, just in case that GB meter was inaccurate, I borrowed a Klein AC/DC clamp meter and got about the same result. And then LG's specs say it uses 220 kWh per year, which works out to what -- about 91 watts? Again, my electrical math may be off and I don't know how LG tests the consumption, but for me at about 75* in the cabin, once it comes down from starting room temp the fridge would then cycle about 10 - 15 minutes per hour. By my calculations, 25 watts for say 15 minutes per hour year round 24/7 is actually less than 220 kWh. The thing is so darn quiet it was very hard to tell when it was cycling, but I could see that GB meter jump from almost zero to 25 when it did cycle on.

Either way, compared to the dinosaur Norcold, it's amazingly efficient.

Ok, watts are watts. If you have a device consuming 240 watts, it's 20 amps at 12 volts or 2 amps at 120 volts.

If LG says it consumes 220 KWH per year, that would be .60 KWH per day (220÷365=.60). There are 1,000 watts in a kilowatt. So that's 600 watts per day. From there your hourly consumption is 25 watts per hour (600÷24=25). Assuming your refrigerator is on approximately 33% of the time, it should be drawing about 75 watts while running. That's before the inverter conversion loss of about 10%. I would guess if you were to measure DC amps flowing into the inverter when the refrigerator was running, you would see a draw of 6 to 8 amps.

Now that's outstanding!

As a point of comparison, my 10 cuft. refrigerator has an annual power consumption of 297 KWH.

Ted
 
This is easy folks. The comparison is watts to watts comparing fridges of equal cubic feet. I just went through this discussion on another forum comparing a Summit 4.2 c.f. fridge to a Vitrifrigo of the same size. The bottom line is the Summit consumes twice as much energy as compared to the Vitrifrigo when the V is running on AC. When the Vitrifrigo is run on 12VDC, the Summit consumes triple the energy and that doesn’t even factor in the inverter loss. You cannot escape the law, Ohm's Law. Now, you may not care about the difference but some will for reasons other than initial cost. No amount of rationalizing or but, but, butting can change the laws of science.
 
This is easy folks. The comparison is watts to watts comparing fridges of equal cubic feet. I just went through this discussion on another forum comparing a Summit 4.2 c.f. fridge to a Vitrifrigo of the same size. The bottom line is the Summit consumes twice as much energy as compared to the Vitrifrigo when the V is running on AC. When the Vitrifrigo is run on 12VDC, the Summit consumes triple the energy and that doesn’t even factor in the inverter loss. You cannot escape the law, Ohm's Law. Now, you may not care about the difference but some will for reasons other than initial cost. No amount of rationalizing or but, but, butting can change the laws of science.

Show me the yellow energy consumption label. Amperage draw of the compressor is meaningless without factoring in duty cycle. Pretty simple for them to submit a unit for independent testing.

Ted
 
Show me the yellow energy consumption label. Amperage draw of the compressor is meaningless without factoring in duty cycle. Pretty simple for them to submit a unit for independent testing.

Ted
Interesting. A brand of appliances here provided refrigerators for testing which were found to have "unusual" settings producing "unusually favourable" draw results. Thereafter the tester organization began acquiring that brand of refrigerator to test from stores, not from the manufacturer.
 
Here's mine. Not much in the way of actual consumption specifics, but here's the yellow sheet.View attachment 123039


https://images.thdstatic.com/catalog/pdfImages/f9/f92da493-28d4-4a2a-9c92-2126fd3d5a91.pdf

Actually yours is very specific. With the standardized federal test, yours consumes 220 KWH per year (600 watts per day). The rate of consumption when the compressor runs is meaningless. If a compressor draws 50 amps at 12 VDC but only runs 1 hour every 24 hours, it's drawing 600 watts. If a compressor only draws 2.084 amps at 12 VDC when running, but runs continuously 24 hours a day, it's drawing 600 watts also. Having a somewhat larger compressor means that when adding warm groceries or making ice, the refrigerator can pull the warm items cold faster do to extra capacity.

Here's the Energy Guide from my refrigerator.

20181005_155958.jpg

Ted
 
Actually yours is very specific. With the standardized federal test, yours consumes 220 KWH per year (600 watts per day). The rate of consumption when the compressor runs is meaningless. If a compressor draws 50 amps at 12 VDC but only runs 1 hour every 24 hours, it's drawing 600 watts. If a compressor only draws 2.084 amps at 12 VDC when running, but runs continuously 24 hours a day, it's drawing 600 watts also. Having a somewhat larger compressor means that when adding warm groceries or making ice, the refrigerator can pull the warm items cold faster do to extra capacity.



Here's the Energy Guide from my refrigerator.



View attachment 123040



Ted



All I know is the beer is cold, the ice cream is hard, it’s making plenty of ice.
I don’t have to defrost it and I’ve got plenty of power to run it. What’s not to like about it ?
 
...The rate of consumption when the compressor runs is meaningless... Ted

Well, no it's not meaningless, but I know what you mean. But then I tend to watch total load at any given moment in addition to cumulative. Between the new fridge and 26 new, 2-watt LED bulbs replacing 26, 20-watt halogen G-4's, we're pulling a small fraction of the power we used before -- and that fridge is so cold we have the dial turned way down to avoid freezing everything solid. Now if I could only get our two, 16,000 btu air conditioning units to pull 25 watts...

My to-do list is a mile long so this is way down the road, but one of these days I'd like to install solar panels on the ten acres of bimini and aft deck roof and never run the generator (except for those darn A/C units). This fridge is another step in that direction.
 
All I know is the beer is cold, the ice cream is hard, it’s making plenty of ice.
I don’t have to defrost it and I’ve got plenty of power to run it. What’s not to like about it ?


What was the cabinet size vs your old refer ?, I would do the same but my nevercold size is limiting my choices
Hollywood
 
Not sure what Propnut had, but we had a very common Norcold DE 0461, since replaced with a DE 0061. The LG LRONC0705V came within about an inch or inch and a half of the same external size as that Norcold. I did have to install some trim/molding around the sides to finish it off nicely and hold it securely in the opening because it doesn't have the screwed-in edging like an in-set Norcold. That LG did have some oddball features though that made it a little awkward. It's got this odd waffled top so I couldn't install trim to match the profile, but then a little ventilation across the top is probably just as well for better operation. And one of the front feet is mounted directly under the door hinge. Stronger design but it's an oddball place for a refrigerator foot. I had to build a little shelf for the foot. All cherry to match the boat's woodwork, with a Rhode Island state medallion inlaid into the top trim because that's the boat's original home.



https://www.lg.com/us/refrigerators...VUm5vBB07EQ_NEAAYASAAEgJAv_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
 

Attachments

  • 2021-11-19_134132.jpg
    2021-11-19_134132.jpg
    104.7 KB · Views: 34
The Summit that I purchased was about 6” taller than the unit it replaced. Fortunately the cabinet that the refrigerator was in , was just bolted between the helm seat cabinet and the liquor cabinet , so it turned out not to be a huge deal to raise the refrigerator cabinet up as required. I did order four
2” x 15” vents . I installed two on the topside of the cabinet ( one on each side). Then I installed two at the bottom of the cabinet ( one on each side) One neat thing about the Summit Refrigerator is the condensing coils are installed inside the refrigerator side walls, so there is no exposed condenser coil subject to getting filled with lint and no condenser fan. The vents I installed at the top and bottom on each side of the refrigerator cabinet allows the warm air flow out the top of the cabinet. So far, I’m loving it. Just wish I had done it sooner. Unit is very quiet.
Glass selfs, digital temperature control with separate controls for the fridge and freezer, Bright led interior light.
 
Show me the yellow energy consumption label. Amperage draw of the compressor is meaningless without factoring in duty cycle. Pretty simple for them to submit a unit for independent testing.



Ted
Ted, yes, of course the duty cycle is important but your yellow label is merely an estimate based on an assumed duty cycle and is predicated on the amperage draw of the compressor. Simple math. So, assume a duty cycle and do the math. When you compare domestic to marine fridges (same sizes) run on straight 12VDC, the domestic fridge uses triple the amount of juice. There is no escaping Ohm's Law. The cost of electricity is obviously not important to most all of us. What may be important to some boaters is the number of amphours consumed while at anchor.
 
The Summit that I purchased was about 6” taller than the unit it replaced. Fortunately the cabinet that the refrigerator was in , was just bolted between the helm seat cabinet and the liquor cabinet , so it turned out not to be a huge deal to raise the refrigerator cabinet up as required. I did order four
2” x 15” vents . I installed two on the topside of the cabinet ( one on each side). Then I installed two at the bottom of the cabinet ( one on each side) One neat thing about the Summit Refrigerator is the condensing coils are installed inside the refrigerator side walls, so there is no exposed condenser coil subject to getting filled with lint and no condenser fan. The vents I installed at the top and bottom on each side of the refrigerator cabinet allows the warm air flow out the top of the cabinet. So far, I’m loving it. Just wish I had done it sooner. Unit is very quiet.
Glass selfs, digital temperature control with separate controls for the fridge and freezer, Bright led interior light.
Propnut, "One neat thing about the Summit Refrigerator is the condensing coils are installed inside the refrigerator side walls".

This is precisely why I got rid of my domestic fridge. Awhile back I had occasion to slide one like that out of its enclosure. I found the sides almost too hot to touch. To the dump they went. Hopefully you have terrific sidewall ventilation but I will bet a dollar that if you slide yours out you will find what I found.
 
And hence why with today’s domestic fridges you don’t blindly add foam board insulation to the sides and top. Contact technical service department before proceeding in that course. I did with Samsung in the past and they don’t me to not add any to any of the surfaces - don’t block the air circulation.
 
The problem is "modern" insulation is so thin that water condenses inside the insulation.

So heat is required to dry it out.

No big deal in a dirt house with an electric connection to Niagra Falls , but a huge problem for battery power reefers..

Many house units also have to heat the door seals for them to continue to function.

Perhaps checking by looking at the schematic for heating circuits before purchasing might be possible
 
Ted, yes, of course the duty cycle is important but your yellow label is merely an estimate based on an assumed duty cycle and is predicated on the amperage draw of the compressor. Simple math. So, assume a duty cycle and do the math. When you compare domestic to marine fridges (same sizes) run on straight 12VDC, the domestic fridge uses triple the amount of juice. There is no escaping Ohm's Law. The cost of electricity is obviously not important to most all of us. What may be important to some boaters is the number of amphours consumed while at anchor.

You're wrong about the Energy Guide. It's not a calculation based on assumptions. Its an actual test under set standards. Here's a link to the government regulation on the test:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2KStj5uBxrl4_sfrPZguD2

So you're saying a 120 VAC appliance run off a pure sine wave inverter consumes 300% of the electricity of when its plugged into shore power? The refrigerator consumes no more electricity on a pure sine wave inverter. There's no difference as far as what the refrigerator is consuming. The inverter consumes a little more electricity to do the conversion. The average conversion cost is under 10%.

Please show me your math or link an explanation of what your claiming.

Ted
 
The specs on my inverter say 13% conversion loss, 87% efficiency. Close enough for me if the fridge pulls 25 watts (load when it's cycling on, not cumulative). The inverter is 1800 watts, overkill I know, but I got a good deal and figured I wouldn't tax it.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom