paper charts

psneeld said:

The problem with thinking paper charts are still a good thing is usually ignorance (in the sense of exactly what they are and can do) of and lack of practice on electronic charting.

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Thinking that electronic and paper charts are equivalent is usually a product of ignorance of man-machine interaction. Electronic charts will eventually get there perhaps, but not yet. Sure they are useable, but not ideal and lack several important attributes of paper and hand drawn charts (two distinct properties). The legal requirement to use electronic charts is driven by commercial shipping, and has little to do with recreational boating.

mvweebles said:

When was the last time gps went down? When was the last time you spilled coffee on your desk?

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I have had GPS go down several times in the last 10 years. There are two reasons: interference or outage of satellite constellations (intentionally caused or otherwise), and electrical outages on the boat. There are some deep fjords in the PNW and Newfoundland where the view of the sky is insufficient to get a fix - of course you know about where you are then. If your boat is struck by lightening it can take out every single GPS receiver on board in a few milliseconds. Including your chartplotter displays. And no, putting your handheld in the oven may not save it.

tiltrider1 said:

One point of note. As you zoom out with a vector chart you loose data. This is not the case with a raster chart or paper chart. While not a case for paper over electronic it does mean that paper still has some back up value.

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There are two distinct things: electronic display of charts (which includes electronic display of hand drawn raster charts) and display of vector charts, which might be printed or on an electronic display. A couple of years ago a highly experienced, highly paid professional racing crew ran a very expensive yacht onto a reef in the Indian ocean because they zoomed back and drew the route, and the reef was "decluttered" from the display. Several other yachts in the same race did the same thing, missing the reef only by chance.

That is user error of the equipment for sure, but brings me back to man-machine interface. A well designed interface makes mistakes less likely, and this is precisely what a skilled cartographer does on a hand drawn chart; while computers - to this day at least - do not. Important hazards are emphasized even on small scale charts so that they do not go unnoticed. That reef in the Indian ocean is small, but drawn in even on ocean scale hand drawn charts because of its importance.

Electronic display of paper (raster) charts has made their use more convenient as no paper shuffling is necessary and they are automatically stitched together. However fast you can pan and zoom a display though, my eyes can pan and zoom across a large paper chart 100x faster.

No one doubts that electronic vector charting is the future. But the future isn't quite here yet, unless you accept some compromise, and adapt accordingly.

and let's see you make note on your screen. CHUCKLE

Marco Flamingo said:

Not like a paper chart on the screen! Grrrrr. This is one of my frustrations with the e-charts in my Garmin. Say I can visually see a day marker about 2 miles away. I can also see it on the e-chart on my MFD. If GPS was down (satellites or my antenna) and I really had full access to the e-chart, I could take a bearing with a hand-bearing compass or pelorus, touch the day marker radar dot on the screen (which would tell me it is 1.87 miles away) and enter my compass reading (say 187 degrees). Enter just that info on a paper chart and you have your location with no need to triangulate (old school triangulation was only required because you didn't have an accurate distance). Yes, the paper charts require a big flat surface (I have) and a parallel ruler (that I threw out years ago). But I've only seen one expensive commercial radar/e-chart system that advertises the bearing/distance ability independent of GPS. My e-charts (probably the equivalent of $30,000 worth of paper charts) are inside the damn electronics, but I can't get at them like I want. Grrrr. And when I take a second bearing, the MFD would update my location and give me an instant SOG and COG, all without GPS. Just like a paper chart except the computer does the math, parallel ruler, dividers, etc. No need for a pencil (and eraser) or satellites.

Paper charts added to situational awareness, except when one was forced to sit at the chart table and plot bearing lines. Not fun when solo and without autopilot. If the e-charts were accessible like paper charts, one could quickly create an ongoing plot without leaving the helm.

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I had advanced plotting taught by the USCG and I taught it in captains licensing school...I can do any basic plotting on my laptop charting software just as easy, probably more so and faster on the laptop.

I like raster over vector...but that's just me...it has it's limitations too just like some vector charts. No increased situational awareness for me at least.

For those that keep saying they are different....how is a raster chart on a screen any different than a paper chart? It's basically just a photo of it.

Sounds like a lot of issues are about MFDs....more so than the display of an identical paper chart on a screen.

I still have two sextants. Using them I can still use my electronic charts.

One thing about paper charts... you have no positioning. You need to determine your position by sightings, time and distance, depth, etc. OR turn on your GPS and know exactly..... and just look at the electronic chart.



I've never had the GPS fail... boating or flying... since it started. But, it does, so a back up would be nice. For most of us we are in a channel, river, ICW and it's pretty easy. Open water, takes a bit more work.


Now, when we did the Canadian part of the loop, we did have paper and gave us info that the electronic charts didn't. But with the GPS charting, it worked great. Perhaps today, the GPS charts give you all you want.

The OP discussion is about is there a use for paper charts.

A GPS is a device that talks to satellites and will give you a position ....with plotting only if IN a plotter.

An electronic chart can be displayed on virtually any screen you want, can be nothing more than a picture of a paper chart with plotting functions and may or may not have positioning if not hooked up to a GPS or similar positioning device.

But for the sake of clarity...a GPS is not necessarily an electronic chart display and an electronic chart display does not necessarily display a position. Many times they are combined...but not dependent on one another.

Talking about GPS constellation variation, failures or spoofing is irrelavent as they have the same effect on electronic charts as they do paper ones.

phillippeterson said:

My wife is watching a trawler journey documentary. The yacht has every electronic navigation aid imaginable but still uses paper charts as well. She asked why they would use paper charts too and I didn't have a good answer.

Can you help educate her and myself as well.

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When I go from Long Beach to Catalina Island it is mostly line of sight plus I have done it so many times I know the compass headings by heart. Ok so I have some of my yacht work done in Mexico. I carry a Chartkit navigation system with a plastic overlay sheet. I mark my position every hour (that I remember) on the chart so if at anytime my electronics go out, I know about where I am at and go from there. Last trip to Mexico in September the back light on my screen slowly dimmed out. Did it truly effect me, no, ok only mentally but it just shows that safety is the best policy. Then I bought a new system only to find out I could have fixed the problem for $350. Oh well, new stuff is always fun. Also, I was on a new at the time guided missile frigate. They had the latest in electronic navigation but also all of the old manual stuff. Something to think about

psneeld said:

The OP discussion is about is there a use for paper charts.

A GPS is a device that talks to satellites and will give you a position ....with plotting only if IN a plotter.

An electronic chart can be displayed on virtually any screen you want, can be nothing more than a picture of a paper chart with plotting functions and may or may not have positioning if not hooked up to a GPS or similar positioning device.

But for the sake of clarity...a GPS is not necessarily an electronic chart display and an electronic chart display does not necessarily display a position. Many times they are combined...but not dependent on one another.

Talking about GPS constellation variation, failures or spoofing is irrelavent as they have the same effect on electronic charts as they do paper ones.

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Paul,


Very true, and way back that was more common. Today, there's rarely a plotter that doesn't have a GPS and chart. Yes, one can add another receiver, but for the most part a waste of time.



And one might still find a loran/chart, or other position electronics like low freq. Just not practical today.

Wifey B: A large part of this discussion is age based, but more how one started and was trained. I used electronic long before I ever looked at my first paper chart. I started and was trained on electronic. I didn't migrate from paper to electronic like many here.

No different than newspapers? Do you still read paper ones? Our younger friends never do, we don't. Our niece wonders why they exist.

Or books? I'm an educator. Reading is my specialty. Taught young children to read. But I only buy a hard copy of any book when no kindle or other electronic version is available. And as my teaching career advanced, I found out something that surprised me and that was how many young kids preferred reading on electronics. Now we own/manage a school and all textbooks are electronic. Every student has a Chromebook. All lessons are available online and parents can communicate with teachers on line.

It's evolution. Whether you like it or not, it happens. As I've mentioned we have chart printing capability and print them for our niece to keep records of where she's been. However, even at 7 years old when we're underway she greatly prefers looking at the electronic charts. She already understands zooming out and in and moving to other charts. She loves to sit with whoever is at the helm and look at where we're going and all that is around us. But then we started showing up to see her on webcam when she was two weeks old and she had no idea what was going on but as time went on she became a pro at talking to us on one and when the pandemic hit at 5 and 6 years old, she had online classes and even when not doing so she was on talking to friends and relatives daily. We went months unfortunately without seeing her in person, but never more than a week without camming with her. She and her same age "cousin" in Florida rarely missed a day.

We know all about Celestial Navigation and Sextants. Took our course in it. Used it there. Only captains course we can both say we hated, but we did it. 14 days. Hubby still says all the stars look the same to him. :lol:

Seevee said:

Paul,


Very true, and way back that was more common. Today, there's rarely a plotter that doesn't have a GPS and chart. Yes, one can add another receiver, but for the most part a waste of time.



And one might still find a loran/chart, or other position electronics like low freq. Just not practical today.

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My point is that the lack of a GPS signal only renders the position info disabled...not the charting function depending on the plotter.

So the people worried about electronic charts and problems with the GPS system obviously don't understand the connection between the two.

If the system goes down...everyone reverts to position plotting manually...whether on electronic charts or paper ones. And some of us with laptop nav can plot just as easily on an electronic chart as they can on a paper one.

psneeld said:

And some of us with laptop nav can plot just as easily on an electronic chart as they can on a paper one.

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Wifey B: And if it's not big enough send it to your 42" or 55" or 70" or 120" television.

phillippeterson said:

My wife is watching a trawler journey documentary. The yacht has every electronic navigation aid imaginable but still uses paper charts as well. She asked why they would use paper charts too and I didn't have a good answer.

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Because there is no good answer. Astrolabes went out of fashion but I have no doubt someone somewhere is navigating with one in the boat they built with an adz.

Electronics are reliable, accurate, and inexpensive but there are luddites who can't or won't use them.

psneeld said:

Sounds like a lot of issues are about MFDs....more so than the display of an identical paper chart on a screen.

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I can make notes on the paper charts.

My experience must be unique. My Garmin has started loosing satellite connections with some regularity. I added a mushroom antenna, which did nothing. I read the manual, which is worthless. I haven't called Garmin yet as I hear that is a last ditch solution that might only add to my frustration. But I'm surprised to find out that I'm the only one who has ever lost GPS satellite connection while underway. It now takes me at least 1/2 hour after leaving the dock to get enough satellites for a position and then I'll lose them 3 or 4 times over a weekend.

I've been trying everything, updated software (twice), reset to factory settings (twice), checked voltage, etc. I was waiting to start a separate thread on TF about my problem, but now I know that I'm the only one that this has ever happened to. The MFD shows an accurate chart and a boat icon overwritten by a flashing question mark (where I was 30 minutes ago). Too bad I can't go "old school" and use the chart as a chart. Yes, I'm old enough to know how to do that.

OldDan1943 said:

I can make notes on the paper charts.

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Good for you...I and others have multiple ways to do the same.

Marco Flamingo said:

My experience must be unique. My Garmin has started loosing satellite connections with some regularity. I added a mushroom antenna, which did nothing. I read the manual, which is worthless. I haven't called Garmin yet as I hear that is a last ditch solution that might only add to my frustration. But I'm surprised to find out that I'm the only one who has ever lost GPS satellite connection while underway. It now takes me at least 1/2 hour after leaving the dock to get enough satellites for a position and then I'll lose them 3 or 4 times over a weekend.

I've been trying everything, updated software (twice), reset to factory settings (twice), checked voltage, etc. I was waiting to start a separate thread on TF about my problem, but now I know that I'm the only one that this has ever happened to. The MFD shows an accurate chart and a boat icon overwritten by a flashing question mark (where I was 30 minutes ago). Too bad I can't go "old school" and use the chart as a chart. Yes, I'm old enough to know how to do that.

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No wonder you prefer paper....

Just for grins...but a $30 GPS USB puck for a laptop and download OpenCPN and some US Raster charts and see what you think. Except for the puck...all free if you own a laptop.

I can't recommend the system for a center console...but when I went this route 10 years and 25000 miles ago...I am laughing all the way and never looking back.

Having a nice MFD system is great...but try this as a backup...low cost so what's to lose?

As the free vector charts get better...switching over isn't hard at all.

psneeld said:

For those that keep saying they are different....how is a raster chart on a screen any different than a paper chart? It's basically just a photo of it.

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Because the size matters. NOAA paper charts as small as the size of the average chartplotter (12 or 16") pretty much don't exist. On the plotter, what you have is either a miniature picture of the chart, or a small window frame of a small part of the chart.

Give me a high res, daylight readable, 45" diagonal screen, that I can roll up and put away when I'm not using it, for around $50 and I'm all in. Until then there is still a difference. I'll still go for the raster version as long as it is available, it communicates important information better and quicker, as well as being easier on the eyes.

I ALWAYS have paper charts when we travel. I seldom break them out except when we want a good overview. I keep just in case. I mean, really, with electronics, what could go wrong, go wrong, go wrong…….. ?

DDW said:

Because the size matters. NOAA paper charts as small as the size of the average chartplotter (12 or 16") pretty much don't exist. On the plotter, what you have is either a miniature picture of the chart, or a small window frame of a small part of the chart.

Give me a high res, daylight readable, 45" diagonal screen, that I can roll up and put away when I'm not using it, for around $50 and I'm all in. Until then there is still a difference. I'll still go for the raster version as long as it is available, it communicates important information better and quicker, as well as being easier on the eyes.

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I have been using plotting software on a 14-16 inch laptop that is more than adequate for the nav that I do. Not sure why you think a raster chart from NOAA isn't available on a 14 inch laptop...I have been using them for a decade. You can zoom in on a raster with great definition where a large marina fills the whole screen


I haven't found that having a daylight viewable for my type of cruising is all that important. In the pilothouse a laptop is fine and if on the bridge...probably concentration navigation isn't huge so the small screen MFD is fine.... I just bring my 10 inch tablet up to fine tune any issues.
But all my real nav planning is easy peezy on my laptop below decks.

cks said:

I ALWAYS have paper charts when we travel. I seldom break them out except when we want a good overview. I keep just in case. I mean, really, with electronics, what could go wrong, go wrong, go wrong…….. ?

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Nothing for me in a decade of long distance cruising after 15 years of commercial work. Just have backups.

OldDan1943 said:

dead recognizing ?

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Ahem, 'dead reckoning' please. Sorry.

I'm sure others have mentioned that if your GPS signal is lost, you still have electronic charts, just no GPS.


I like paper charts.

I keep them on the boat.

I use them relatively frequently.

They are harder and more expensive to get these days.

That makes me sad.


Yes, I still wear an analog watch and have a working compass on my boat. I use both.


Yes, I use my chart plotter and GPS all the time and like it very much.

dhays said:

I'm sure others have mentioned that if your GPS signal is lost, you still have electronic charts, just no GPS.


I like paper charts.

I keep them on the boat.

I use them relatively frequently.

They are harder and more expensive to get these days.

That makes me sad.


Yes, I still wear an analog watch and have a working compass on my boat. I use both.


Yes, I use my chart plotter and GPS all the time and like it very much.

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Ditto. Beer at the Tides?

dhays said:

I'm sure others have mentioned that if your GPS signal is lost, you still have electronic charts, just no GPS.


I like paper charts.

I keep them on the boat.

I use them relatively frequently.

They are harder and more expensive to get these days.

That makes me sad.


Yes, I still wear an analog watch and have a working compass on my boat. I use both.


Yes, I use my chart plotter and GPS all the time and like it very much.

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I agree with all but the analog watch. I don't wear a watch at all. I do however have, use and prefer analog clocks.

This has been a fun topic! The OP simply asked the function of paper charts to explain to his wife why an electronically equipped trawler she was following online was using them. A question which he was not able to answer.

A number of fine people dived in and provided reasons why someone might use or just have on board a paper chart even though having electronic plotters available.

That was a perfectly adequate answer to the OPs question.

It is unclear to my why a number of other fine people waged in on why paper charts are completely unnecessary, extolling all the advantages of chartplotters and one even calling those using them luddites etc. The perils of answering innocent questions!
~A

Would love to try a 48" or larger screen tv, laid horizontal, and run OpenCPN with a touch pen. Just need to make sure to caulk the screen edge for the drink spills which will inevitably happen

AlanT said:

This has been a fun topic! The OP simply asked the function of paper charts to explain to his wife why an electronically equipped trawler she was following online was using them. A question which he was not able to answer.

A number of fine people dived in and provided reasons why someone might use or just have on board a paper chart even though having electronic plotters available.

That was a perfectly adequate answer to the OPs question.

It is unclear to my why a number of other fine people waged in on why paper charts are completely unnecessary, extolling all the advantages of chartplotters and one even calling those using them luddites etc. The perils of answering innocent questions!
~A

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I guess I would have answered there is absolutely no good reason other than they are behind the times. And explained that electronics have just about taken over the commercial world, some recs are just behind the times.

Your pointing out there was only one correct answer shows a lot right there.

I was just pointing out the ignorance of todays systems and that GPS failure has nothing to do with electronic charts. To me it's not understanding what is really there... and once one starts working full time electronically...a lot of the "I like paper better" seems to dwindle as the new way and skills develope. But using equipment not well designed for it is never gonna encourage anyone.

psneeld said:

I guess I would have answered there is absolutely no good reason other than they are behind the times. And explained that electronics have just about taken over the commercial world, some recs are just behind the times.

Your pointing out there was only one correct answer shows a lot right there.

I was just pointing out the ignorance of todays systems and that GPS failure has nothing to do with electronic charts. To me it's not understanding what is really there... and once one starts working full time electronically...a lot of the "I like paper better" seems to dwindle as the new way and skills develope. But using equipment not well designed for it is never gonna encourage anyone.

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I think you are still missing the point. They did not ask why you do not use paper charts - they asked why someone else did
. The shortest possible version of the answer to that is that they like to! The longest possible answer is to point out all the reasons why they shouldn't.

mvweebles said:

... I don't recall anyone relating a credible actual story of needing, having, and using paper charts for navigation when electronics failed. Versus phone, tsblet, or PC navigation options

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Interestingly enough someone just posted a scenario on the Liveaboard Lifestyle Facebook group where they were asking for such advice because in her words:

"...Last night we were caught out in some pretty rough weather and had a failure in our electrical system. No navigation instruments, no lights, etc. We were able to get into a port that I was pretty familiar with (Monterey Harbor). But if I hadn’t been, I would not have had depths, channel markers, harbor entrance, etc. No information. What do you use? We had no internet signal until we came fairly far into the bay and could double check my recollection with Google Earth. I’d love to hear from you."

Many responses including paper charts and having multiple backup devices at the ready with charts downloaded so the Internet connectivity isn't a necessity.

-tozz

AlanT said:

I think you are still missing the point. They did not ask why you do not use paper charts - they asked why someone else did
. The shortest possible version of the answer to that is that they like to! The longest possible answer is to point out all the reasons why they shouldn't.

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I see your point, but it still wouldn't keep me from explaining why it isn't what everyone does.

And at least for me...when a bunch or people start pointing stuff out that isn't exactly true...I really don't focus on the OP as much as trying to keep as much info truthful or at least full enough of counterpoints that relative newcomers aren't necessarily swayed by a bunch of information that may only be partially true or true in only some cases.

Very early on there was quite of bit of opinion so why not provide some of the other "opinions".