Electric steering

Has anyone converted from a hydraulic helm to electric?

Daddyo said:

Has anyone converted from a hydraulic helm to electric?

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i looked at it on my last boat, but the selection of hardware was limited. there was some new stuff coming out, but the prices were stupid crazy. i ended up going electro/hydraulic, with a lever in the helm and a hydraulic power unit in the engine room.
is there a system you're looking at?

Not yet. Looking for suggestions.

I looked at all sorts of options about a year ago and ended rebuilding my Hynautic system and replacing the primary lines from helm to steer cylinder to reduce effort. Really liked some of the stuff Kobelt and Accusteer offer, but it's very pricey. I essentially drive my boat electric over hydraulic through the autopilot. Would like to have removed the hydraulic helm and all the plumbing with just just the pump and cylinder in the lazarette. Ultimately couldn't get comfortable with giving up the redundancy of a mechanical helm.

It would be interesting to know if electric or hydraulic rudder movement is more reliable and life expectancy.

Ted

O C Diver said:

I looked at all sorts of options about a year ago and ended rebuilding my Hynautic system and replacing the primary lines from helm to steer cylinder to reduce effort. Really liked some of the stuff Kobelt and Accusteer offer, but it's very pricey. I essentially drive my boat electric over hydraulic through the autopilot. Would like to have removed the hydraulic helm and all the plumbing with just just the pump and cylinder in the lazarette. Ultimately couldn't get comfortable with giving up the redundancy of a mechanical helm.



It would be interesting to know if electric or hydraulic rudder movement is more reliable and life expectancy.



Ted

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I think my Raymarine pump can turn the rudder faster than my helm. Electric/hydraulic seems to make more sense to me. I also want to raise the headroom in the shower under my lower helm.

Daddyo said:

I think my Raymarine pump can turn the rudder faster than my helm. Electric/hydraulic seems to make more sense to me. I also want to raise the headroom in the shower under my lower helm.

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You're in a great position. You could remove your lower helm, gain the space you desire, and maintain the upper helm for a redundant system.

My Simrad AP20 system turns 20 years old next year. Have considered replacing it, but can't find a remote I like as well as the AP21. The knob is my steering wheel for electric over hydraulic.



Ted

I’m in the middle of removing my helm now, my last boat had a jog lever hooked directly to the steering pump, it didn’t run through the computer ,found I didn’t use it very much ,I used the dial on my control head mostly ,this auto pilot has a nice dual function jog lever So I’ll probably install a toggle switch for emergency back up directly to the pump

I'm interested - running the hydraulics from the flybridge and forward helm all the way back to dual rudders (we have a cat). Would be lovely to clean that up, but haven't got any answers on a) whether it really is better with modern electrics/electronics, and b) best product. Listening...

Most folks who don't have hydraulics use a linear drive. I have a Raymarine type 2 on my sailboat attached to a short tiller on the rudder shaft. It's just as effective as a hydraulic system in my experience, and those drives have a good track record.

My power boat has the same unit as OC Diver and I rarely touch the wheel. I think drive by wire is entirely feasible.

New to us boat has Kobelt. It’s different than prior boat. At very slow maneuvering speed because it goes through several microprocessors there’s a very brief lag. I noticed it coming from Whitlock. Others haven’t as it’s so brief. System is old. Don’t know if that’s true with current generation devices.

the dometic optimus system looks pretty nice. pretty expensive, but seems pretty simple. rudder feedback built into the cylinder/actuator.
https://www.dometic.com/en-us/outdo...tic-optimus-eps-inboard-smart-cylinder-246356

I'm not aware of any electric system. Only hydro-electric, and there are a variety of them. A linear drive like hippo describes might work, but those are more typically designed to provide AP control over a tiller boat.


HyPro makes a hydro-electric system. The hydraulics are all in the laz including a hydraulic power pack. Then the helms have a wheel, but it's all electronic sensing and control back to the system in the laz. I know a couple of people with them and they love them, but I expect they are pretty $$.


I think the most cost effective solution is just to use you AP for steering, adding a follow-up or non-followup/jog lever. You already have 90%, if not 100% of it in your boat already.


The objection to all hydraulic seems to be the plumbing runs to the helms. I couldn't agree more, and considered eliminating them on our build and just using the AP system with hydraulics in the laz. But I reached the same conclusion as Ted, wanting to keep it as a backup.

I suspect the market for all electric steering will grow as steer by wire is gaining traction for large outboards.

It think much depends upon where you boat and your boat. If you boat in protected waters and have twins then steering loss is an annoyance. A major annoyance but you won't likely come to any harm. I boat where steering loss could be a very serious incident. With all the troubles we hear about on electronic controlled engines, and I've experienced a few, I want the very reliable hydrualic helms with an easy to use autopilot. I've long used Simrad APs and do almost 100% of my steering with the knob. I'm sure other APs have smiliar capabilities.

Nothing is 100% fail proof. Hydraulic steering comes close if inspected and maintained. The system will give you warnings of pending problems if you pay attention. When I notice leaks, corrosion or poor performance I attend to it. Electronic / electric failures too often present themselves without warning. Now it works, not it doesn't.

While there are electrical drive units that are targeted toward mechanically steered boats from Raymarine and Simrad, the recommended vessel size limits at about 20,000 pounds. In hindsight, I wished I had known about the rotary (chain) drive system from Raymarine when equipping my charter boat. It would have been far easier to install and significantly less expensive.

Ted

Whitlock is a direct linkage system used on sailboats of all sizes including very large ones. An arm on the rudder post goes to a ss rod. That rod goes to an arm on the rod that ascends to the helm wheel. Two gears at 90 degrees there. One at top of rod. The other very short rod to the center of the helm wheel There’s no play at all when adjusted. Most bwb sail has a separate arm on the rudder post for the AP. It’s inconvenient in that the wheel turns when on AP so a potential hazard. But great as there’s no cables, hydraulics or other things to fail. Very bulletproof and great feel unlike a worm gear. . As good as a tiller but you have a mechanical advantage.

Jeff F said:

Most folks who don't have hydraulics use a linear drive. I have a Raymarine type 2 on my sailboat attached to a short tiller on the rudder shaft. It's just as effective as a hydraulic system in my experience, and those drives have a good track record.

My power boat has the same unit as OC Diver and I rarely touch the wheel. I think drive by wire is entirely feasible.

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My thoughts exactly. I also have the same Raymarine setup.

Wasn't it an autopilot failure that grounded the Evergreen, and blocked the Suez Canal? I often steer with the little jog lever on my autopilot remote, but I would not want to give up the helm. There are plenty of times when you would be on the rocks in seconds if your autopilot freaked out for some reason and was non responsive.

Not talking about autopilot steering. Everyone of your cars are steering at 80mph with electric steering boxes[emoji33]I’m thinking it’s time for our trawlers to join the 21st century.

I wonder if part of the reason we don't see linear drives replacing hydraulic cylinders has to do with a relief mechanisms. Most steering system have a pressure relief valve that by passes fluid from one side of a hydraulic cylinder to the other. If something strikes the rudder and the pressure in the system on one side of the cylinder exceeds the safe limit, fluid is passed to the other side and the rudder moves. That's probably tougher to do mechanically with rudders requiring great force to move them.

Ted

Not every one of our cars. Only a handful have gone full drive by wire.

But back to your question, what's the starting point? The existing hydraulic systems are mature and well understood. They work. There is no real compelling case for giving them up for most.

On a new build maybe, if you want to play. But swapping out existing hydraulic for something else is a tough case to make.

Daddyo said:

Not talking about autopilot steering. Everyone of your cars are steering at 80mph with electric steering boxes[emoji33]I’m thinking it’s time for our trawlers to join the 21st century.

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Did you look at the domestic optimus gear I linked earlier? It’s exactly what you describe, just expensive. The linear drive looks like a perfect drop in replacement for a hydraulic cylinder, the helm has adjustable tension settings. Pretty cool stuff, just too expensive for me at this point.

Daddyo said:

Not talking about autopilot steering. Everyone of your cars are steering at 80mph with electric steering boxes[emoji33]I’m thinking it’s time for our trawlers to join the 21st century.

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It will come in new builds. Eventually. Boats advance more slowly than vehicles.

I do have some concerns with the technology of using full electric steering.

The first is emergency steering. By emergency I mean failures of the boat's electrical system, I've experienced that a few times. Or failure of the electrical/electronic controls. I've experienced that as well.

The second is corrosion. The lazarette, steering room, whatever you call it is a wet place. Especially on boats, pleasure or work, that don't have a sealed watertight lazarette with a watertight deck hatch. Corrosion of components and connections can lead to the failures I state above. My autopilot pump is in the engine room for that reason. Again experience.

According to this article https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a27888229/power-steering/ car steering though electric "assist" still has a direct connection between the steering wheel and the rack that turns the wheels.

Currently on boats the proven way to keep that direct connection a hydraulic system. Should any part of the electrical, electronic or autopilot system fail steering by hand is instantly available.

For those reasons I don't see any great advantaget to all electric steering on boats.

For what it’s worth, here is my two cents. Prior to retirement I spent almost 50 years in the hydraulic industry, starting in the navy, then owning a hydraulic distribution company and after selling to a much larger company I managed the hydraulic and off highway divisions.
The commercial hydraulic industry has been converting to electronic controls for the las few decades. Most hydraulic companies have added electronic engineers to their staff. There is nothing in today’s world that comes close to the power density of hydraulics and also the simplicity for a very basic system like steering. Full electronic/ electric steering is available on today’s cars. However the power required to steer a car is extremely low compared to the power required to steer a boat.
If the hydraulic lines are already in place on a boat I think that removing them to add a full electronic steering system is a mistake. Anyone with half a brain can troubleshoot and repair a full hydraulic steering system. They’re nothing more than a manual pump attached to the wheel and a cylinder. Some have an auxiliary belt driven pump and some have an accumulator with an air charge. All can be easily fixed if a problem happens when you’re offshore. I would be very concerned if an electronic system failed offshore. The average owner would have no ability to troubleshoot, let alone repair.

I’m really talking about electric at the helm. The rudder is still moved using the Raymarine hydraulic pump.

Daddyo said:

I’m really talking about electric at the helm. The rudder is still moved using the Raymarine hydraulic pump.

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The new Mercury Verado 600 HP uses direct electric steering as well as the new large Yamahas, they probably speak in CAN bus language so getting that to talk to your autohelm controller would be the only hurtle. The large outboard market seems like the gorilla in the room when it comes to marine propulsion so the aftermarket support will probably grow pretty quickly.

Daddyo said:

I’m really talking about electric at the helm. The rudder is still moved using the Raymarine hydraulic pump.

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An auto pilot does exactly what you describe. Mine is even connected to a little kiddie steering wheel. You could remove the hydraulic helm, but I agree with others that it's a good thing to have as a backup. Or if you want the look and feel of a bigger helm wheel, yet with electric controls, get a Hy Pro system.

Daddyo said:

I’m really talking about electric at the helm. The rudder is still moved using the Raymarine hydraulic pump.

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Let me put things a different way. You need some sort of electric mechanical drive turning the rudder, and you need some sort of electric brain. You've got those two things now in your autopilot. Whatever you do electric is going to be done by interacting with your autopilot. That's the way things are done. So really you're closer than you think.

You can get remote controls, jog levers, and probably little toy wheels to interact with your existing AP. I like the little toy wheel on my Simrad AP21 on my trawler and mostly steer my sailboat using a Raymarine wireless remote.

Sorry if I hijacked the conversation into mechanics when it's really one about remote controls and electronics. What is your existing AP?

Any electrically actuated , hydraulic operated steering would have the advantage that the rate of rudder response would be a dial in.

2 or 3 turns lock to lock while docking 5 or 6 lock to lock, while actually hand steering.

Jeff F said:

Let me put things a different way. You need some sort of electric mechanical drive turning the rudder, and you need some sort of electric brain. You've got those two things now in your autopilot. Whatever you do electric is going to be done by interacting with your autopilot. That's the way things are done. So really you're closer than you think.

You can get remote controls, jog levers, and probably little toy wheels to interact with your existing AP. I like the little toy wheel on my Simrad AP21 on my trawler and mostly steer my sailboat using a Raymarine wireless remote.

Sorry if I hijacked the conversation into mechanics when it's really one about remote controls and electronics. What is your existing AP?

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I have a Raymarine. Yes it’s the helms that I’m looking for. A normal sized wheel connecting to my existing elec/hydraulic pump.