Tripping anchor windlass breaker.
- Thread starter jclays
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Jc180
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2018
- Messages
- 232
- Location
- U.S.
- Vessel Name
- Salty Dog & Last Dragon
- Vessel Make
- Gulfstar 47 Sailmaster & Mainship 34 MK 1
jclays
One other thought. Are you using the windlass to pull the boat up to the anchor location? With some wind and or current would certainly explain overload.
One other thought. Are you using the windlass to pull the boat up to the anchor location? With some wind and or current would certainly explain overload.
C lectric
Guru
***********Voltage on the line side of the switch was 13.44 volts. NO LOAD
With LOAD 10.4 then drop to 9.80 volts*********
SHould check the actual working voltage at the actual battery terminals. AND at the actual windlass terminals.
A nearly 3.5volt drop is a lot for where you checked. Maybe the battery is part of the problem.
Maybe a dirty or loose connection is part of this. It would only take one.
I used 4/0 wire for a 1500W motor on my Lofrans Tigres 6 or so years ago with a circuit return path of similar distance of 64 ft.
I checked at the windlass under load and was just a hair over the 3% drop calculation I made for the installation.
Yes, corroded bearings could have made the windlasses job a LOT harder. Since you have replaced those that should no longer be part of the problem.
Before replacing stuff CLEAN ALL THE TERMINALS in the windlass power circuit.
With LOAD 10.4 then drop to 9.80 volts*********
SHould check the actual working voltage at the actual battery terminals. AND at the actual windlass terminals.
A nearly 3.5volt drop is a lot for where you checked. Maybe the battery is part of the problem.
Maybe a dirty or loose connection is part of this. It would only take one.
I used 4/0 wire for a 1500W motor on my Lofrans Tigres 6 or so years ago with a circuit return path of similar distance of 64 ft.
I checked at the windlass under load and was just a hair over the 3% drop calculation I made for the installation.
Yes, corroded bearings could have made the windlasses job a LOT harder. Since you have replaced those that should no longer be part of the problem.
Before replacing stuff CLEAN ALL THE TERMINALS in the windlass power circuit.
Last edited:
jclays
Senior Member
jclays
Senior Member
jclays
Senior Member
Everything all clean and tight.
Voltage was taken at the windlass while idle 13.44
Switched on the amperage quickly climbed to 119-123
Voltage dropped at the same time from 13.44 to 10.4 then 9.80 in relation to the spike in amperage.
jclays
Senior Member
Good information!
This windlass is the factory setup on the Mainship 350/390 trawlers from 1997 until I imagine Lewmar stopped manufacturing this model.
When I bought the boat a year ago she only had a 20lb Danforth copy and 14ft of 5/16 chain. Not enough unless you anchor in a pond.
I upgraded to a 44lb original Bruce anchor and 100ft of 5/16' chain and 300ft of 5/8"three strand nylon for a proper anchor set up for this boat.
It appears that the windlass is overloaded.
sbman
Guru
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2017
- Messages
- 828
- Location
- USA
- Vessel Name
- Second Chance
- Vessel Make
- 42' Uniflite Double Cabin
This does not add up. You stated you were in 100 feet of water, so you were lifting 100 feet of chain. A bit less than 100lbs. The working load will provide acceptable performance it should not struggle to lift the working load. I could see it slowing down and struggling once you are lifting 100' of chain and also the anchor, but that's not what you described.
To lift 100 pounds with a 4" drum requires only 16 ft/lbs of torque.
If you look at the manual for the Lewmar Concept 1, it's specification claims it is able to lift 100 pounds at 60 amps and a line speed of 13-14 M/min. At 150 pounds, the weight of your chain and anchor it shows about 70 amps at a similar speed
This sounds like a bad motor, probably a short in one of the windings.
What does the windlass do if you run it with no load? It should draw about 40 amps with no load.
jclays
Senior Member
Today’s test. Only voltage. I did not have access to yesterday’s clamp amp meter.
Starting voltage at the battery No load 13.50v
At the battery running windlass about 8 seconds(no observer at the bow) voltage 12.2v
Moved battery to the bow. Connected 8’ 1/0 copper welding wire jumpers to the battery and windlass.
Starting voltage 13v at windlass. Running steady 10 seconds 11.2v. Much better voltage.
I’ll start this weekend with cutting fresh ends in the cables and crimping on new connectors. We’ll see where we are at before buying a new battery and shorter cables and finding a closer location.
Starting voltage at the battery No load 13.50v
At the battery running windlass about 8 seconds(no observer at the bow) voltage 12.2v
Moved battery to the bow. Connected 8’ 1/0 copper welding wire jumpers to the battery and windlass.
Starting voltage 13v at windlass. Running steady 10 seconds 11.2v. Much better voltage.
I’ll start this weekend with cutting fresh ends in the cables and crimping on new connectors. We’ll see where we are at before buying a new battery and shorter cables and finding a closer location.
Comodave
Moderator Emeritus
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2015
- Messages
- 21,273
- Location
- Au Gres, MI
- Vessel Name
- Black Dog
- Vessel Make
- Formula 41PC
For heavy duty applications I like to use some copper paste inside the connector on the cable ends. Also use some adhesive lined heat shrink.
mvweebles
Guru
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2019
- Messages
- 7,215
- Location
- United States
- Vessel Name
- Weebles
- Vessel Make
- 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
As final observation, consider replacing the breaker. Blue Sea (or Buss) both make reliable breakers. Amazon is flooded with cheap knockoff breakers that are tempting due price but apparently vary widely in their reliability. Good news is they tend to trip prematurely, but not always.
Peter.
Peter.
DrissZougari
Senior Member
My bow thruster and windless are using the same battery upfront that is charged by the engine without any issue.
C lectric
Guru
Check the actual crimps. THat is too much Vdrop, IMO, for a no load situation.
If you physically cleaned the terminals and lugs then that brings into question the actual crimps. They can be tested for Vdrop with some ingenuity. Even a resistance test can be questionable in cases like this.
Clip the DMM to the lug itself and then use a probe to pierce the insulation next to the crimp and operate the motor. You may have to do this at each terminal. THere should be virtually NO V drop at that point. If there is much at all then the crimp itself may be questionable. A few millivolts would be expected at each crimp.
I have written this many times. A digital multimeter, DMM, takes virtually no current to give a "good reading". They need only a few microamps to give that reading. The trouble is where the DMM's needs can be met easily when there is no load that same connection can show a LARGE Vdrop when the load is actually working due to resistance.
THat is why I suggested test while loaded. An unloaded good V reading means very little other than the battery "appears" to be in good shape.
How did the brushes look when you had it apart?
jclays
Senior Member
I did the refurbish. Just a visual and bench run on the motor. Bearings and seals were obvious issues and replaced those.
GingerMd
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2021
- Messages
- 39
- Vessel Name
- Ginger
- Vessel Make
- Camano 31
Ok, this is going to sound like the easy way out, but a 24 yo windlass that never worked when boat was purchased ? I’d buy a new one right off. I had a similar thing happen to my bow thruster. After making all the electrical measurements to assure myself there was no issue there, I had it completely rebuilt. Problem solved. Things wear out in motors, whether a bow thruster or windlass. Brushes, bearings, etc. Time to break out another thousand ! Lol
Add a battery at point of use. Big drop in power with 30 ft run. I had a similar arrangement problem. Try running winch with engine running. Battery at winldess can be charged with a dc to dc switch in between to avoid back flow. You can test this method with a battery and regular cables connected direct to windless. Mine was wired with 00 cable and 100 amp 12v breaker.
Circumnavigator
Senior Member
With #0 cable, at 100A and 30' separation, you have 6000 ampere feet. That will give a loss of a little less than 6% at 12V. Not great, but certainly not bad. Call it 3/4 of a volt loss in the cables.
You say that at 100A draw the voltage at the windlass drops off to 9.8V. That's far more than the cable loss and suggests that either the cables or the batteries aren't as good as you think.
I like the idea of putting a car battery beside the windlass and seeing what that does. You won't be able to load it with 100' of chain in your slip, but it should give you a clue.
Jim
You say that at 100A draw the voltage at the windlass drops off to 9.8V. That's far more than the cable loss and suggests that either the cables or the batteries aren't as good as you think.
I like the idea of putting a car battery beside the windlass and seeing what that does. You won't be able to load it with 100' of chain in your slip, but it should give you a clue.
Jim
As others have noted, the voltage drop is almost certainly the issue. However, the recent rebuild adds a wrinkle.
In order to narrow down the source of the problem, I would measure the voltage at the battery and then at the windlass posts, under load, to determine the actual drop, but based on this reading alone, at the switch, it's significant. For motor loads I shoot for 3% and I can easily argue that a windlass is a critical component, so it falls under the ABYC 3% guideline.
I would not install a bow, windlass battery bank to "fix" this problem. Doing so requires meeting a host of ABYC standards, including security (much more movement and G force in the bow) ventilation and over-current protection, not to mention charging. I don't like the idea of sleeping on batteries too. I'd also want to be certain the problem is voltage related before adding batteries.
In my experience it's almost always simpler and cheaper to supply power to the windlass with the right cabling.
Why was the windlass rebuilt, was it malfunctioning?
In order to narrow down the source of the problem, I would measure the voltage at the battery and then at the windlass posts, under load, to determine the actual drop, but based on this reading alone, at the switch, it's significant. For motor loads I shoot for 3% and I can easily argue that a windlass is a critical component, so it falls under the ABYC 3% guideline.
I would not install a bow, windlass battery bank to "fix" this problem. Doing so requires meeting a host of ABYC standards, including security (much more movement and G force in the bow) ventilation and over-current protection, not to mention charging. I don't like the idea of sleeping on batteries too. I'd also want to be certain the problem is voltage related before adding batteries.
In my experience it's almost always simpler and cheaper to supply power to the windlass with the right cabling.
Why was the windlass rebuilt, was it malfunctioning?
Capt Ray
Senior Member
Breakers ... over time of being tripped a lot will gradually start tripping at lower amperages. So in addition to all the other really good advice, consider the possibility that your breaker needs to be replaced.
(Same is true of auto-resetting breakers on windshield wiper motors on cars.)
Been there.
(Same is true of auto-resetting breakers on windshield wiper motors on cars.)
Been there.
That would be my suspicion. Bad bearings in the motor or gears. If this windlass was installed by the builder or worked fine in the past, it is not a problem with undersized cables.
I had a windlass completely lock up and not turn at all because of rusty gears and bearings. I got it apart and "fixed" but it failed a year later.
jclays
Senior Member
Good suggestions everyone.
After checking Lewmar chart in my manual the cabling is correct for the application. 1/0 cable is what is called for. A voltage drop of 2 volts is acceptable to Lewmar.
I cut back 4 inches of cable to expose new cable ends. All bright and clean cable.
Crimped new 1/0 lugs on the cable with the power crimpers I borrowed from work.
Voltage at the windlass improved.
I let out 50ft of chain and the anchor.
Ran the windlass voltage held at 11.2v on the retrieve.
When the anchor came off the bottom the bog in the windlass was noticeable.
Voltage dropped to 11v. Motor was noticeably slower. .
Just too much weight for the old windlass.
Today I will be removing the old windlass and start filling in the 2 holes in the fore deck from the old windlass.
I will replace the windlass with a horizontal windlass.
I am ordering the Class 46 from Powerwinch. I had their Class 30 on my recently sold fishing boat for 16 years and it was flawless.
I liked some maxwells and Lofrans but most didn’t have he Free fall feature that I want.
I fish in 100’ plus deep water and like to drop anchor fast as opposed to powering down.
After checking Lewmar chart in my manual the cabling is correct for the application. 1/0 cable is what is called for. A voltage drop of 2 volts is acceptable to Lewmar.
I cut back 4 inches of cable to expose new cable ends. All bright and clean cable.
Crimped new 1/0 lugs on the cable with the power crimpers I borrowed from work.
Voltage at the windlass improved.
I let out 50ft of chain and the anchor.
Ran the windlass voltage held at 11.2v on the retrieve.
When the anchor came off the bottom the bog in the windlass was noticeable.
Voltage dropped to 11v. Motor was noticeably slower. .
Just too much weight for the old windlass.
Today I will be removing the old windlass and start filling in the 2 holes in the fore deck from the old windlass.
I will replace the windlass with a horizontal windlass.
I am ordering the Class 46 from Powerwinch. I had their Class 30 on my recently sold fishing boat for 16 years and it was flawless.
I liked some maxwells and Lofrans but most didn’t have he Free fall feature that I want.
I fish in 100’ plus deep water and like to drop anchor fast as opposed to powering down.
Glad you were able to identify the issue.
You are getting that voltage reading at the windlass?
All Maxwells that I know of have clutches which allow free falling, and most have a manual retrieval feature.
You are getting that voltage reading at the windlass?
All Maxwells that I know of have clutches which allow free falling, and most have a manual retrieval feature.
jclays
Senior Member
Yes the new reads where at the windlass.
Any experience with the Powerwinch 46 class windlass? I've used the 30 class for the last 16 years on a boat I just sold. Worked every time.
jclays
Senior Member
Received my new Powerwinch class 46 windlass the other day. Removed the old Lewmar windlass and filled the holes in the foredeck behind the pulpit.
I will need to make the foredeck longer. When Mainship built the first 350 trawlers in 1997 they made the foredeck between the raised pulpit and the opening to the anchor locker only 8" wide. The Lewmar windlass was rotated 90 degrees to make it fit. All the 1997's I've seen are this way. The following years Mainship shortened the anchor locker lid 3" to make for a larger foredeck.
I have cut off 4" from the lid on my anchor locker. I have made a new piece that will fit from the back of the raised pulpit and over the first 4" of the anchor locker opening out of 1" starboard. This will put the foredeck at the same level as the pulpit and give me 13" of deck space for the new windlass. It's been raining so I cant do any permanent attachments until things dry out. I will head to the marina and check the fit of my newly cut pieces.
I will need to make the foredeck longer. When Mainship built the first 350 trawlers in 1997 they made the foredeck between the raised pulpit and the opening to the anchor locker only 8" wide. The Lewmar windlass was rotated 90 degrees to make it fit. All the 1997's I've seen are this way. The following years Mainship shortened the anchor locker lid 3" to make for a larger foredeck.
I have cut off 4" from the lid on my anchor locker. I have made a new piece that will fit from the back of the raised pulpit and over the first 4" of the anchor locker opening out of 1" starboard. This will put the foredeck at the same level as the pulpit and give me 13" of deck space for the new windlass. It's been raining so I cant do any permanent attachments until things dry out. I will head to the marina and check the fit of my newly cut pieces.
Comodave
Moderator Emeritus
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2015
- Messages
- 21,273
- Location
- Au Gres, MI
- Vessel Name
- Black Dog
- Vessel Make
- Formula 41PC
Remember that Starboard isn’t structural. Just make sure the load isn’t pulling on the Starboard as it will deform.
jgwinks
Guru
Breaker should be as close to the battery as practical. The breaker protects the wires, not the device. If you put the breaker near the windlass and had a dead short upstream of that, you'd burn the boat down. Breakers and fuses can only protect what's downstream from them. My setup has about 60' round trip of 2/0 cable with a 100 amp fuse about a foot from the battery. It's never tripped, even with the windlass stalled out. (Don't stall the motor... If it slows down while retrieving, stop and let the boats forward momentum break the anchor free. Use light forward engine if necessary. The windlass is just for raising the chain and anchor, not for breaking it free or towing the boat to the anchor. Had to have a talk with my deck hand about that one.)
jclays
Senior Member
The 1” thick starboard will be thru bolted thru the foredeck.
The windlass studs extend thru the starboard ,deck and 1/4” metal backing plate.
Comodave
Moderator Emeritus
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2015
- Messages
- 21,273
- Location
- Au Gres, MI
- Vessel Name
- Black Dog
- Vessel Make
- Formula 41PC
That should work fine.
Similar threads
