solar or generator?

Marco Flamingo said:

.

If I wanted all the comforts of home, I'd just stay home. Is actual boating so miserable such that not having counter top appliances, pressure hot water, DVD player, etc., on board is unthinkable ?

Do people now think that Joshua Slocum was the first person to singlehandedly camp around the world?

End of rant.

For now.

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For some of us the boat is our home
The thought of going back to the dirt house and suburbia is abhorrent

We have cruised boats that are lacking in comforts before
Fun for a while when you are young and stupid
Give me a comfortable and capable vessel any day if actually wanting to live the dream and keep everyone involved happy.

Marco,

I liked your post.

I agree that there are many types of boating, ranging from simple and tiny to more complex/luxurious and huge. Or combinations thereof.

But like you, I don't love it when people say "I do my boating in X manner, because otherwise it'd be camping."

When I read that I hear:

1) Who in their right mind wants to camp? Ewww.

2) Implied that if you don't do it X way, you're doing it wrong.

3) There is some specific thing that is camping (ha, ask the guy in the 43' 5th wheel with 4 slides).

Some people get satisfaction and enjoyment from simple boating. Some want all the mod cons. And some do both. Why does one have to be poo-pooed?

I think it's great that there are a variety of ways to do boating. I've paddled the meagerest raft, cruised on simple boats and on larger yachts. I enjoyed them all. Yay boating!

PS to Simi: Definitely not young and I don't think I'm stupid (?).

Frosty said:

Some people get satisfaction and enjoyment from simple boating. .

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As do I
Some of my favourite boats have been large masts and a silly amount of sail with the bare minimum of hull to keep it and crew afloat but not much more.
One in particular, the second last cat we built I cried when we sold her and delivered her to her new home, but at least she was in another country so never had to see her languish.
20 years later I still sort of regret doing it
But a full time cruiser she was not

PS to Simi: Definitely not young and I don't think I'm stupid (?]

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But do you go home to a dirt house at night?
There be the difference

Case in point
There is a bit of weather on here at the moment , 30+ knots of SW and cold, so we are hiding over near the mainland but very comfortable.

Near us us an old IOR boat with a guy doing the minimilst thing, no lights, no solar, no Genset so no anything really, rolling his ring out in the slop.
Do you reckon he's having fun?

Simi 60 said:

But do you go home to a dirt house at night?
There be the difference

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I haven't lived in a "dirt house" in over 20 years. It's not something I usually feel a need to mention though.

Simi 60 said:

Case in point
Near us us an old IOR boat with a guy doing the minimilst thing, no lights, no solar, no Genset so no anything really, rolling his ring out in the slop.
Do you reckon he's having fun?

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I couldn't say. Maybe he is and maybe he isn't. It's clear you would not enjoy it and that's totally fine. Not a thing wrong with you loving your boat and your lifestyle.

Frosty said:

I haven't lived in a "dirt house" in over 20 years. It's not something I usually feel a need to mention though.

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Well comments here were saying niceties aren't needed.
If you wanted nicites you simply go back to the dirt house

I couldn't say. Maybe he is and maybe he isn't. It's clear you would not enjoy it and that's totally fine. Not a thing wrong with you loving your boat and your lifestyle.

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Well, he jumped in the dodgy dinghy at sunset and putted off to shore for a comfortable night ashore I guess.
Guessing he didn't think the vomitorum was the spot to be tonight.
Don't blame him
Been there, done that.

Simi 60 said:

Well comments here were saying niceties aren't needed.
If you wanted nicites you simply go back to the dirt house

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I didn't see anyone saying niceties weren't needed (of course they aren't needed; they are chosen, which is fine). I was responding to what Marco said which is just that it stands out when people make it sound like boating that is less than luxurious is camping, as if it's something universally awful (and not just.... boating). Simple (or simpler) boating is just another kind of boating. To each their own!

I also didn't say I do or don't have niceties. You stated you figured I lived in a dirt house (as if that would show I don't really have a right to an opinion). I don't. I never said I did or did not have niceties. (And it's clearly not necessary to live in a "dirt house" to have them, as you show by example.)

I guess I don't understand the disdain for a simpler type of boating, to the point of calling it camping. No one is suggesting that you adopt it. Why should you? It just stands out when people say things like "well of course you *could* go without air-conditioning or an espresso maker or etc. but that would be camping'." I don't understand the need to include how awful the other way would be in order to say what one prefers.

I can say that I love driving a manual (which I do!) without disparaging those who drive automatics -- or assuming they just haven't driven a car in years and couldn't possibly know about the subject.

Frosty said:

I didn't see anyone saying niceties weren't needed (of course they aren't needed; they are chosen, which is fine). I was responding to what Marco said which is just that it stands out when people make it sound like boating that is less than luxurious is camping, as if it's something universally awful (and not just.... boating). Simple (or simpler) boating is just another kind of boating. To each their own!.

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Fair enough but I was talking actual live aboard in comfort, not casual boating

I also didn't say I do or don't have niceties. You stated you figured I lived in a dirt house (as if that would show I don't really have a right to an opinion). I don't. I never said I did or did not have niceties. (And it's clearly not necessary to live in a "dirt house" to have them, as you show by example.)

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Nothing at all to do about right to an opinion
But you did say or at least I read into it that you had a "simple boat" which to me would imply that like Marco, you go home to a dirt house if wanting niceties
My mistake

I guess I don't understand the disdain for a simpler type of boating, to the point of calling it camping. No one is suggesting that you adopt it. Why should you? It just stands out when people say things like "well of course you *could* go without air-conditioning or an espresso maker or etc. but that would be camping'." I don't understand the need to include how awful the other way would be in order to say what one prefers.

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No disdain, just pointing out reality
A boat without nicites is well........less nice than one that has them
Going on previous boats we have owned, wet sailbags are not as nice to sleep on as a sprung king sized mattress

PS, we don't have A/C or an espresso maker, perhaps we do have a simple boat?

I can say that I love driving a manual (which I do!) without disparaging those who drive automatics -- or assuming they just haven't driven a car in years and couldn't possibly know about the subject

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I have driven both - both get me from A to B, but as I haven't driven one for years.........

I do like niceties and have packed my boat with allllll the niceties that will fit without sacrificing space for other niceties.
I do rough it a bit, no dish washer, no ice maker. I make do with ice cube trays.

Different strokes for different folks on boats. I'm sure there was no disdain intended to either end of the spectrum.

I find myself somewhere in the middle with a small boat that's capable of extended cruises for 1-2. Like some others, I rough it by hand washing my dishes, using a laundromat on extended trips and making ice in trays. Oh, the crosses we must bear!!!

On the other hand, I have most of the conveniences and capabilities of home which allows me to live a similar lifestyle in either place. It's nice to have options, comfort and stability.

I consider myself greatly blessed by our Creator and thank Him daily for my many blessings. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

Personally more in FWs camp. More complex a boat the more to break and fix. We’re moving to coastal from international cruising. When spec’ing the last one.
Had pressure water but also foot pumps at the galley for fresh and salt water.
Had AC and a Wesbasto but also sufficient natural ventilation to not be AC dependent and mountaineering clothes to not freeze.
Had a watermaker but also everything (wash downs, heads, sinks) had a separate salt supply. Also carried bottled water, and had two separate water tanks.
This is a different mentality than coastal where checking into a hotel, getting a tech or a part is a phone call at worse.


I don’t see staying in environments between 65-85f, dry, fed, clean and hydrated as “niceties “.



I see them as ways to stay healthy and functional. As a youth had times off grid. Even slept in a sling on a rock face. Once was a fit 20 something. But even then those interludes were followed by days of recovery. At this point and throughout my boating anything that improves my performance, comfort and health increases my safety. Have been at the wheel hallucinating from sleep deprivation or barely functional from temperature stress ( both too hot and too cold). Lin and Larry Pardey are heroes of mine. The ultimate go small go now and KISS teachers. Wandered the world in an engineless wooden cutter “serafin “. They were able to keep warm, hydrated and fed. But they enjoyed the huge amount of work involved to achieve that. I’d rather cruise.
I apologize if upset anyone by calling it camping. I didn’t mean Camping World camping. I’d also ask folks to appreciate the extremely high tech hardware and clothing available to those going off grid on land. Still, land or sea you have the same biological needs (not wants). Some can be briefly deferred. But only briefly.

One thing that is common to all of us: At anchor, we all have the same view. The $5,000,000 yacht and the $5,000 pickle barrel.

Interesting that what constitutes "boating" for the young and stupid can become "camping" for the old and stupid. At what age? Also interesting that whether one lives aboard, in addition to age and mental capacity, is a determinative factor as to whether one is camping. I lived aboard for years on boats with no electricity, manual heads, wood stove, kerosene lights, etc. I never camped a single night on board nor did my guests.

It could be a definitional issue as to what constitutes "camping" but I don't think so. If one claims to have camped on a boat, I want to know the particulars. Pulling a boat up on the beach, flipping it over, and sleeping underneath, wouldn't qualify as technically one isn't on the boat. How one could "camp" on a trawler, let's say >10 meters, is beyond me. I would need to hear the details from those who qualify as old and stupid liveaboards. And feel free to blame the use of "camping" terminology on somebody else (spouse). Wimpy wife, wimpy life. Just kidding. Those who want more creature comforts are no less boaters than those who don't.

I agree with Frosty's idea that the use of camping terminology as related to trawlers tends to be used as a pejorative. Say I told you that I was driving from Tacoma to Portland when the climate control in my Bentley Continental GT stopped functioning and I had to roll down a window and "hike" the rest of the way. You would likely think that I had never hiked and didn't know the meaning of the word hike. Or you might think that I was implying that those who didn't have climate control in their Bentleys were pedestrians. Since "hike" has a fairly well understood meaning, the second interpretation is the more likely. Likewise, isn't there something just a little bit ostentatious about claiming that one was camping on their yacht?

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread. Solar.

For those who are not sure, both NexGen and Westerbeke both make a 3.5KW marine diesel generator.

If I am camping I would rather do so on the water than on the land.

I do not want a generator (noise), have resisted solar up until now, but I added a freezer.

Well I read most of the posts thinking someone would mention another alternative which I have. But first a nod to cruising styles. If you are committed to a floating condo then a generator is the only way to go, or.... marina to marina. Marina to marina is equivalent to RVing site to site, which is what most do. My motorhome comes equipped with a generator but it gets used rarely as I am almost always RV site to RV site "camping."

I have had an Efoy fuel cell added to my boat. Each cannister is good for 900 amps, currently my boat carries two full cannisters and a half canister attached. I have six fire fly batteries good to 690 amps. So as my boat is set up currently, I carry 2942 amps, lets be lazy and say 3000 amps.

I have a freezer hooked up to 12V only and ditto my fridge on 12V's. I will run certain high drawing items but only for short times like toaster (900 A), small electric kettle (900 A) and microwave again 900 A. If I felt I needed more amps, I'd just bring along another cannister. PS, I also have 300 watts of solar. Again its life style, my stove is propane, my hot water and heat from diesels heating, but also a propane heater at the bow. So I can be on the hook for a long time. Oh yes I bought a cheaper not smart 28 inch TV but with an internal dvd player, the tv uses minimal juice.

My boat is limited to summer enjoyment. I prefer land living with traffic, soaring petroleum prices for the boat, car, van, home heating, satellite TV, higher taxes, shootings and the list goes on. Why would I want to live on my boat???

foggysail said:

My boat is limited to summer enjoyment. I prefer land living with traffic, soaring petroleum prices for the boat, car, van, home heating, satellite TV, higher taxes, shootings and the list goes on. Why would I want to live on my boat???

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You can sell everything not necessary but, one cannot hide from the IRS.

OldDan1943 said:

You can sell everything not necessary but, one cannot hide from the IRS.

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No IRS worries here! I am trying to find a path to as many government subsidies as possible. Heck, Bernie is my friend. I DEMAND EQUAL EQUITY, to heck with that old bull poop of equal opportunity. Looking back at my younger years upsets me for having to pay out of pocket for my college education, baby sitters for our kids instead of today's full day free pre-primary baby sitters. Now I don't want to pay for anything! I am entitled to free glasses, hearing aids, transportation, meals and of course, no property taxes because I have already paid enough.

Please do not tell anybody about my boat unless they know of a government program that pays me to use it.

foggysail said:

No IRS worries here! I am trying to find a path to as many government subsidies as possible. Heck, Bernie is my friend. I DEMAND EQUAL EQUITY, to heck with that old bull poop of equal opportunity. Looking back at my younger years upsets me for having to pay out of pocket for my college education, baby sitters for our kids instead of today's full day free pre-primary baby sitters. Now I don't want to pay for anything! I am entitled to free glasses, hearing aids, transportation, meals and of course, no property taxes because I have already paid enough.

Please do not tell anybody about my boat unless they know of a government program that pays me to use it.

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LOL, your boat can be considered your primary or 2nd home.
Sure you can document your boat to avoid state registration but then, the Feds know about your boat when you document it.
Of course, there is the option of continually changing the name and hailing port on the stern of your boat.

OldDan1943 said:

LOL, your boat can be considered your primary or 2nd home.
Sure you can document your boat to avoid state registration but then, the Feds know about your boat when you document it.
Of course, there is the option of continually changing the name and hailing port on the stern of your boat.

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Time to go to bed for rest. Tomorrow is going to be a long day searching for subsidies. Damn!!! Poverty sucks.............or at least that is what friends tell me. Good night Dan!

foggysail said:

Time to go to bed for rest. Tomorrow is going to be a long day searching for subsidies. Damn!!! Poverty sucks.............or at least that is what friends tell me. Good night Dan!

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foggysail, feel sorry for me, I am living on a "fixed" income

OldDan1943 said:

LOL, your boat can be considered your primary or 2nd home.

Sure you can document your boat to avoid state registration but then, the Feds know about your boat when you document it.

Of course, there is the option of continually changing the name and hailing port on the stern of your boat.

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The IRS does not care about what you own except when you die and leave an estate with a value in EXCESS of $11.7 million ($23.4 miilion for a couple) if you die in 2021. Goes up every year as the amount is tied to the inflation rate. The IRS does care that you paid taxes on any income you used to pay for assets. Other Feds do not care about your boat. By the way, in Florida, documented boats must also be registered.

catalinajack said:

The IRS does not care about what you own except when you die and leave an estate with a value in EXCESS of $11.7 million ($23.4 miilion for a couple) if you die in 2021. Goes up every year as the amount is tied to the inflation rate. The IRS does care that you paid taxes on any income you used to pay for assets. Other Feds do not care about your boat. By the way, in Florida, documented boats must also be registered.

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Couple of corrections:
The estate tax threshold limit is temporary. If not renewed, it returns to 5 million in a few years.

Documented vessels in Florida pay a use fee which equals the registration fee. They specifically don't register it and the number starts with DO to indicate it's a documented vessels. Further, there is no requirement to display the number whereas a registered vessel must.

I realize this is all nit picking, but it took me a week to straighten out THEIR problem, when they originally issued my trawler registration numbers and refused to renew my user fee in year 6. Cleaning up their mess involved me proving I had paid sales tax on the boat. They only keep that proof for 5 years, but you're required to keep it until you no longer own the boat.

Ted

O C Diver said:

Couple of corrections:
The estate tax threshold limit is temporary. If not renewed, it returns to 5 million in a few years.

Documented vessels in Florida pay a use fee which equals the registration fee. They specifically don't register it and the number starts with DO to indicate it's a documented vessels. Further, there is no requirement to display the number whereas a registered vessel must.

I realize this is all nit picking, but it took me a week to straighten out THEIR problem, when they originally issued my trawler registration numbers and refused to renew my user fee in year 6. Cleaning up their mess involved me proving I had paid sales tax on the boat. They only keep that proof for 5 years, but you're required to keep it until you no longer own the boat.

Ted

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I had a similar experience from Massachusetts for my old sailboat almost 10 years after purchase. I received a notice from the State demanding proof I paid the sales tax.

I called the collection office number provided on their letterhead and explained to a representative that I would happily provide as many copies as they desired PROVIDING THEY SEND A STAMPED SELF ADDRESSED ENVELOPE TO ME. Nothing more from them for almost 2 years when I did get their envelope. I returned copies of my payment and never heard more from them.

Things were really bad around our harbors during that period. The State had their environmental police with harbor masters boarding out of state documented boats demanding sales tax or user tax payment proof.

O C Diver said:

Couple of corrections:

The estate tax threshold limit is temporary. If not renewed, it returns to 5 million in a few years.



Documented vessels in Florida pay a use fee which equals the registration fee. They specifically don't register it and the number starts with DO to indicate it's a documented vessels. Further, there is no requirement to display the number whereas a registered vessel must.



I realize this is all nit picking, but it took me a week to straighten out THEIR problem, when they originally issued my trawler registration numbers and refused to renew my user fee in year 6. Cleaning up their mess involved me proving I had paid sales tax on the boat. They only keep that proof for 5 years, but you're required to keep it until you no longer own the boat.



Ted

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Okay, it will return to $5 million ($10 miilion for a couple) in a few years. I will wager that few of us on this board will have any worries when it does. I know I won't come anywhere close.

catalinajack said:

Okay, it will return to $5 million ($10 miilion for a couple) in a few years. I will wager that few of us on this board will have any worries when it does. I know I won't come anywhere close.

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Could very much depend on whether inflation keeps going. Also, there's a bill in the "Ways and Means " committee to pay for proposed spending. They intend to cut the threshold well below $5M starting 1st of the year.

Ted

These states are stupid. Rhode Island has no sales tax on boats. So nearly everyone from Connecticut, south eastern Massachusetts, and even NY documents in Rhode Island. Then off they go cruising never spending more than 90 days in any jurisdiction. Escape sales tax and use fees. Result is for boats of any significant size they home berth in Rhode Island. Marine service industries flourish. Those industries in MA, Conn, NY lose jobs. Rhode Island gets more tax income via income, real estate and other taxes to more than make up multiples of the one time sales tax on a boat and even annual use fees. Boat owners save tens of thousands on sale tax so are more than willing to home port in Rhode Island even if it means an occasional longer drive. Where we home ported in the past (Barrington j would say 90% of owners had out of state license plates on their car. On our finger slip there wasn’t a single owner with a dirt house in Rhode Island.
Think even FLA is blowing it. They have a vibrant recreational marine industry unlike the collapse in the Rhode Island neighboring states. Few of the significant boats violate their stay restrictions. See a lot of C.I. flagged or other “foreign” boats on cruising permits or US flagged in R.I. Or Delaware or other low tax state. Many of those folks would stay but move on to follow the rules and not pay additional use fees or taxes.

Hippocampus said:

These states are stupid...

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Yep, you're exactly right, they're astoundingly dumb in my opinion, completely ignoring basic human nature. The stories about the "Pandora Papers" are in the news at the moment, all about evil rich people parking their money in various places, including -- of all places South Dakota. Lots of reasons for that but among others, we're a state where the original intent of a trust is very strongly maintained. If rich Mrs. Vanderbilt from New York wants her cat Fluffy to get her millions, then by golly Fluffy will almost certainly get the millions no matter how much the Vanderbilt children squawk. As a result of factors like that (and others like the state tax environment), billions are parked in South Dakota. Tax and financial and economic rules and regs matter. Those states are so short sighted. Strangle your marine industry so you collect $5.

How did we segue from "Solar or generator" to state sales tax rules?

FlyWright said:

How did we segue from "Solar or generator" to state sales tax rules?

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We/they did not segue.
Just an abrupt 90 degrees.