bluewater steering

Bmarler · Sep 12, 2021

i'm curious to know, what type of steering is your bluewater equipped with, and how do you like it?
mine has an older morse rack/cable unit and it takes a lot of effort to turn to port at speeds above 6 knots or so.
it's high on my list of things to upgrade/repair.

GoneDiving · Sep 12, 2021

What size and tonnage is your boat?

My 54' 50 tonner has hydraulic steering and auto pilot. It works well but sometimes less than 7 turns lock to lock would be nice.

I do have an emergency manual tiller but that is not a fun experience to use. It's definitely a 'get you home' option only.

Bmarler · Sep 12, 2021

GoneDiving said:
What size and tonnage is your boat?

My 54' 50 tonner has hydraulic steering and auto pilot. It works well but sometimes less than 7 turns lock to lock would be nice.

I do have an emergency manual tiller but that is not a fun experience to use. It's definitely a 'get you home' option only.

it's a 40 footer, haven't verified the tonnage, but i was told around 30k pounds.
it's a single screw, fairly large rudder. lots of force on the helm.
i have a comnav autopilot with an octopus drive on it that works very well, but sometimes i like to hand steer through certain things. this one takes both arms to do that. the pilot can turn it quicker than i can actually.
i thought about putting a remote on the comnav with a follow up rudder control, but then i still wouldn't have a helm that i was happy with. i've never had rack steering before, so i'm not sure what to expect from it in regards to feedback.

Tator · Sep 13, 2021

My Bluewater 40 has a Comnav 1001 autopilot. A Hynautic pump moves the ram when the wheel is turned. An octopus pump is used with the auto pilot I have twins and large rudders. Steering is a breeze. I'm not familiar with Morse cable/rack and pinion steering on a boat.

Tator

Bmarler · Sep 13, 2021

Tator said:
My Bluewater 40 has a Comnav 1001 autopilot and octopus pump feeding a hydraulic ram which then moves the quadrants(?) on the rudder shafts. I have twins and large rudders. Steering is a breeze. I'm not familiar with Morse cable/rack and pinion steering on a boat.

Tator

is the hydraulic ram the main steering cylinder? if so, there must be a hydraulic helm as well?

Tator · Sep 13, 2021

See edited version. Hynautic pump on the wheel.

Bmarler · Sep 13, 2021

Tator said:
See edited version. Hynautic pump on the wheel.

ok, thanks for that. i've been thinking i might go with a hydraulic helm pump as well, but i kind of like the idea of the redundant system of the mechanical helm with the hydraulic auto pilot. i guess i'll have to decide it it's really that important.

Xlantic · Sep 13, 2021

I also have a hydraulic system in my boat.

In my earlier 1979 GB42 I had the cable-and-pulley system.

They both work well and do not require much effort but the hydraulic one is smoother.

I am not familiar with your "morse rack/cable" system but it could well need some lubrication or adjustment if it requires so much effort, particularly if more effort is required to turn to one side rather than the other.

Bmarler · Sep 13, 2021

Xlantic said:
I also have a hydraulic system in my boat.

In my earlier 1979 GB42 I had the cable-and-pulley system.

They both work well and do not require much effort but the hydraulic one is smoother.

I am not familiar with your "morse rack/cable" system but it could well need some lubrication or adjustment if it requires so much effort, particularly if more effort is required to turn to one side rather than the other.

this is my first time with this type of steering too. at first blush it looks like it should work well, with the helm turning a gear that moves a rack that in turn pushes or pulls the cable. there's a lot of grease on the rack assembly, which makes me think the previous owner was having issues with it too. at low speeds it's very easy to turn either direction, but when i get up to cruising speed the effort to turn to port is increased. i'm going to have the diver that services my boats go down and have a look at the rudder just in case, but i don't think there's anything going on there. the rudder is pretty big, and the prop is too, it just might be a too much for the old system. going totally hydraulic seems like a good decision at this point. i was just wondering if other bluewater 40's were equipped with this steering, or if maybe it was buyers request during construction.

DDW · Sep 13, 2021

What does the rudder look like? Is there much area ahead of the rudder post? That can make a very big difference in steering effort.

On sailboats, where hydraulic steering is not desirable, spade rudders have some percentage of the area ahead of the pivot point to balance the load when deflected. This can be about 10 - 18% of the total area. 25% is the theoretical neutral balance point which would give no self-centering. Depending on how your rudder it made it may be easy to add some area to the front.

Xlantic · Sep 13, 2021

Bmarler said:
this is my first time with this type of steering too. at first blush it looks like it should work well, with the helm turning a gear that moves a rack that in turn pushes or pulls the cable. there's a lot of grease on the rack assembly, which makes me think the previous owner was having issues with it too. at low speeds it's very easy to turn either direction, but when i get up to cruising speed the effort to turn to port is increased. i'm going to have the diver that services my boats go down and have a look at the rudder just in case, but i don't think there's anything going on there. the rudder is pretty big, and the prop is too, it just might be a too much for the old system. going totally hydraulic seems like a good decision at this point. i was just wondering if other bluewater 40's were equipped with this steering, or if maybe it was buyers request during construction.

When you say cable I assume you mean a telescopic cable as in the Teleflex cables used for steering outboards. In my experience these cables have a limited life and may need to be replaced after 10 or 20 years when the lubrication inside the cable fails. You may want to disconnect the cable and see if there undue friction at some point, for example at the steering rack-and-pinion, in the cable itself or at the stern steering assembly. It could be you need to replace the cable.

The above does not explain, though, why the steering issues arise at higher boat speeds and only when turning to port. This could possibly indicate a loose fit between the rudder post and the stuffing box/bearing or failed lubrication.

Bmarler · Sep 13, 2021

DDW said:
What does the rudder look like? Is there much area ahead of the rudder post? That can make a very big difference in steering effort.

On sailboats, where hydraulic steering is not desirable, spade rudders have some percentage of the area ahead of the pivot point to balance the load when deflected. This can be about 10 - 18% of the total area. 25% is the theoretical neutral balance point which would give no self-centering. Depending on how your rudder it made it may be easy to add some area to the front.

the majority of the rudder is aft of the rudder post. i'm familiar with balanced spade rudders as my cruising sailboat was that setup. on this boat there would be room to add forward of the rudder post, but it would cut down on the room to pull the prop and i believe it causes other issues if the prop gets too close to the rudder. i'm certainly no expert in that field though.

Bmarler · Sep 13, 2021

Xlantic said:
When you say cable I assume you mean a telescopic cable as in the Teleflex cables used for steering outboards. In my experience these cables have a limited life and may need to be replaced after 10 or 20 years when the lubrication inside the cable fails. You may want to disconnect the cable and see if there undue friction at some point, for example at the steering rack-and-pinion, in the cable itself or at the stern steering assembly. It could be you need to replace the cable.

The above does not explain, though, why the steering issues arise at higher boat speeds and only when turning to port. This could possibly indicate a loose fit between the rudder post and the stuffing box/bearing or failed lubrication.

telescopic cable, yes. the cable is certainly older, as is the helm station. it is possible that simply replacing the cable will help, and maybe there's some wear on the helm gear as well. to be honest, i was surprised to see this sort of mechanical steering on this size of boat, most this size are hydraulic i think. but everything else on this boat is robust, overkill in many ways, so i thought it must have been well thought out when installed.
i have inspected the rudder post and stuffing box in the lazarette and everything seems proper, and well lubricated.
it's only about four turns lock to lock, and the steering wheel is a pretty large diameter. i would expect steering effort to be higher than a hydraulic helm pump, and i took note during sea trials. but during the long delivery home i really started to be aware that it shouldn't be this tough to steer.
maybe it's the combination of the high load on the rudder on one side from prop rotation and the old cable?
can the cable sheath be expanding (stretching) due to old age? seems possible.

Xlantic · Sep 13, 2021

Bmarler said:
telescopic cable, yes. the cable is certainly older, as is the helm station. it is possible that simply replacing the cable will help, and maybe there's some wear on the helm gear as well. to be honest, i was surprised to see this sort of mechanical steering on this size of boat, most this size are hydraulic i think. but everything else on this boat is robust, overkill in many ways, so i thought it must have been well thought out when installed.

My boat's original steering was cable-and-pulley and a PO replaced it with hydraulic. While i would think hydraulic is more robust and reliable, I would think a well-designed and correctly-sized telescopic-cable steering system would work well.

I don't know how much a hydraulic replacement would cost but with some many opportunities to spend money on a boat I would certainly try to salvage your current set-up, if possible.

Bmarler · Sep 13, 2021

Xlantic said:
My boat's original steering was cable-and-pulley and a PO replaced it with hydraulic. While i would think hydraulic is more robust and reliable, I would think a well-designed and correctly-sized telescopic-cable steering system would work well.

I don't know how much a hydraulic replacement would cost but with some many opportunities to spend money on a boat I would certainly try to salvage your current set-up, if possible.

agreed, there are many places that i need to put money into this vessel, like the 16 trojan batteries that the previous owner let dry up.
if this steering setup can be repaired, and gives satisfactory performance, i will most likely go that way. i guess i need to figure out exactly how long the cable is so i can see about replacement.

i was hoping for a little more input from other bluewater 40 owners before making any decisions though, that why i posted this thread in the bluewater section.
if the mods think it belongs in another section of the forum please feel free to move it.

Keysdisease · Sep 13, 2021

The Morse rack and pinion steering was preferred on many boats as it provides "no feedback" to the helm, that is you can take your hands off the wheel and the helm stays on course and doesn't veer from torque. For larger boats where you may not have hands on the wheel all the time like you would on smaller boats, this was the feature that sold these units...in the previous century.

The length may be heat stamped into the jacket at one or both ends, typically at the tiller end. The rack is part of the cable, and replacement will include the rack and cable. The cable length will be the jacket length + 18" then rounded up to the next full ft.

Rather than have a diver take a look, try disconnecting the tiller arm from the cable end and see how free the rudder is.

Your top choice in hydraulic will be Sea Star formerly Teleflex. Very reliable, my last boat was 20 yrs old when I got it, 30 when I sold it, still had fully functional original Sea Star hydraulic.

If you want the really good stuff Sea Star Capilano is the "commercial" grade steering that includes variable ratio steering

Morse was purchased by Teleflex now Sea Star (Dometic) long ago, you will find the replacement Morse Rack and Cable listed as a Sea Star part, for example:

SeaStar Solutions

:socool:

Bmarler · Sep 14, 2021

Keysdisease said:
The Morse rack and pinion steering was preferred on many boats as it provides "no feedback" to the helm, that is you can take your hands off the wheel and the helm stays on course and doesn't veer from torque. For larger boats where you may not have hands on the wheel all the time like you would on smaller boats, this was the feature that sold these units...in the previous century.

The length may be heat stamped into the jacket at one or both ends, typically at the tiller end. The rack is part of the cable, and replacement will include the rack and cable. The cable length will be the jacket length + 18" then rounded up to the next full ft.

Rather than have a diver take a look, try disconnecting the tiller arm from the cable end and see how free the rudder is.

Your top choice in hydraulic will be Sea Star formerly Teleflex. Very reliable, my last boat was 20 yrs old when I got it, 30 when I sold it, still had fully functional original Sea Star hydraulic.

If you want the really good stuff Sea Star Capilano is the "commercial" grade steering that includes variable ratio steering

Morse was purchased by Teleflex now Sea Star (Dometic) long ago, you will find the replacement Morse Rack and Cable listed as a Sea Star part, for example:

SeaStar Solutions

good information, thanks
i am pretty sure this isn't a no feedback helm though, as the autopilot cylinder and pump can turn the rudder and when it does, the steering wheel turns with it. i looked the the cable systems and it looks like there are no feedback units as well as non no feedback. this must be the latter.
i also looked at the cable and see the cable jacket is split open in several areas. this must be the majority of the problem. now i need to see how the cable is routed, and decide if i want to just replace the cable or upgrade to all hydraulic.
thanks to all who responded.

Keysdisease · Sep 14, 2021

Bmarler said:
i also looked at the cable and see the cable jacket is split open in several areas.

The reinforcing inside the plastic jacket is steel, and when it rusts it not only expands to burst the jacket but constricts on the core causing increased friction on the steering cable core.
When this happens failure is a question of how soon, not if. The increased friction on the core accelerates failure

:socool:

Bmarler · Sep 14, 2021

Keysdisease said:
The reinforcing inside the plastic jacket is steel, and when it rusts it not only expands to burst the jacket but constricts on the core causing increased friction on the steering cable core.
When this happens failure is a question of how soon, not if. The increased friction on the core accelerates failure

got it. it will be replaced with something very soon. i don't see any rust on the steel reinforcing, but there must certainly be damage to the core. i'm only planning on using the boat a couple more times this season, and i do have the redundant hydraulic system if there's a total failure of the cable. not ideal, but workable. i will monitor it carefully.

Gdavid · Sep 14, 2021

I would guess that the cable will always struggle with the rudder loading at cruise speed regardless of condition, they just aren't made for that. They are commonly used for inboard outboards and have power steering assist as well for all V6 and V8 engines and even some of the 4 cylinders. Your configuration would work fine with a new cable assuming that you are on autopilot most of the time, which is pretty common for trawlers anyway and when you are docking or maneuvering with the wheel, the cable system would be plenty adequate.

If you go full hydraulic and want a backup, the most straightforward approach is making an emergency tiller to attach to the rudder post when needed, assuming that you can provide access to it from above.

Bmarler · Sep 14, 2021

Gdavid said:
I would guess that the cable will always struggle with the rudder loading at cruise speed regardless of condition, they just aren't made for that. They are commonly used for inboard outboards and have power steering assist as well for all V6 and V8 engines and even some of the 4 cylinders. Your configuration would work fine with a new cable assuming that you are on autopilot most of the time, which is pretty common for trawlers anyway and when you are docking or maneuvering with the wheel, the cable system would be plenty adequate.

If you go full hydraulic and want a backup, the most straightforward approach is making an emergency tiller to attach to the rudder post when needed, assuming that you can provide access to it from above.

i do have an emergency tiller. i'd hate to have to use it though.

Bmarler · Sep 17, 2021

Keysdisease said:
The Morse rack and pinion steering was preferred on many boats as it provides "no feedback" to the helm, that is you can take your hands off the wheel and the helm stays on course and doesn't veer from torque. For larger boats where you may not have hands on the wheel all the time like you would on smaller boats, this was the feature that sold these units...in the previous century.

The length may be heat stamped into the jacket at one or both ends, typically at the tiller end. The rack is part of the cable, and replacement will include the rack and cable. The cable length will be the jacket length + 18" then rounded up to the next full ft.

Rather than have a diver take a look, try disconnecting the tiller arm from the cable end and see how free the rudder is.

Your top choice in hydraulic will be Sea Star formerly Teleflex. Very reliable, my last boat was 20 yrs old when I got it, 30 when I sold it, still had fully functional original Sea Star hydraulic.

If you want the really good stuff Sea Star Capilano is the "commercial" grade steering that includes variable ratio steering

Morse was purchased by Teleflex now Sea Star (Dometic) long ago, you will find the replacement Morse Rack and Cable listed as a Sea Star part, for example:

SeaStar Solutions

i called seastar tech support and they say they don't have any cables that will work with the old morse helms. disappointing as i like the helm as is. it has a cool mechanical rudder position indicator on it that i'd like to keep.
i could put in a gauge from comnav but they want like $325 dollars for it. by the time i do that, and buy a new helm and cable i might as well go hydraulic.

syjos · Sep 21, 2021

Bmarler said:
i'm curious to know, what type of steering is your bluewater equipped with, and how do you like it?
mine has an older morse rack/cable unit and it takes a lot of effort to turn to port at speeds above 6 knots or so.
it's high on my list of things to upgrade/repair.

Sorry for the late reply.

Sandpiper is equipped with the Capilano hydraulic steering with a variable displacement helm pump.

The single rudder is actuated by two cylinders in a push pull configuration.

Boat was built with those. I think it's overkill. Too many turns, but the helm can be spun.

If you opt for Capilano, get the bigger helm pump to reduce turns lock to lock. Sandpiper came with the smaller pump and with it set to max, it is still 7 1/2 turns lock to lock. The pump exteriors are the same dimensions.

If you decide hydraulic, make sure to install a crossover pipe/valve in your hydraulic tubes. It allows you to use your emergency tiller to steer without having to disconnect the cylinders from the rudder post. Bluewaters were not originally equipped with a crossover.

I installed an Accu-Steer (Bellingham, WA) variable displacement pump when I upgraded the auto pilot 21 years ago. I had to replace the copper steering tubes with larger diameter copper tubing in order to gain the benefits of the larger pump.

I have not had an issue with steering.

syjos · Sep 21, 2021

If you decide to stick with mechanical steering, Morse make non-feedback mechanical helms in addition to their standard helms that transmit feedback from the rudder, which is what you may be experiencing. I think they make the cables in various qualities. The better ones are very smooth. My experience with cable steering is with outboards and vessels under 30' so I'm not sure what is out there.

The Davis steering cable luber makes lubing the cable easy.

I believe that steer by wire is available if running hydraulic lines is something you don't want to do. I saw one demonstrated at the Pacific Marine Expo a few years back.

Bmarler · Sep 23, 2021

i decided to replace the cable and see how it does. i can't do a no feedback helm cause of the autopilot hydraulics need to be able to turn the wheel. the type of octopus pump already fitted doesn't really play well with a hydraulic helm pump, and that guided my decision too. the upside is, i will still have two complete steering systems in place. i will probably also install one of the remotes from comnav that has a tiller function if the new cable works out. that would essentially be steer by wire.

Tator · Sep 23, 2021

You may have a different Octopus pump then we have but, ours has worked well for at least 16 tears with our Hynautic helm pump.

Tator

Bmarler · Sep 23, 2021

Tator said:
You may have a different Octopus pump then we have but, ours has worked well for at least 16 tears with our Hynautic helm pump.

Tator

the octopus pump i have is the one with the little reservoir on it. there may be a way to valve it so it can work with a hydraulic helm pump but i'm not sure. i inquired with the manufacturer but didn't get any response from them.
replacing the existing cable was a fairly inexpensive thing to try so i thought i'd give it a whirl. if it doesn't perform i'm only out a couple hundred bucks and some time.

Tator · Sep 23, 2021

Yeah, that's different than mine. I 've tried to call Octopus several times over the years and have never heard back from them.

Tator

Leclair92 · Feb 2, 2022

I have a bluewater 40 (previously 'Salish Moon') with the same morse cable steering system, mine is (reasonably) hard to turn in either direction, but I'm also used to boats with hydraulic steering. what kind of cable did you go with? and did it make an improvement? I'm using an older Raymarine ST6002 Autopilot with the S-1 wheel drive pilot, it basically just attaches to the wheel and steers the boat via a small motor and a ring gear. I am worried that the added friction of the cable and feedback might be too much torque for the A/P motor as it puts out about 22ft/lbs of torque (I think). I'm making a trip from Bellingham to Prince William sound Alaska in May and I really don't want to have a failure and be manually steering the whole trip! on the other hand I'm basically doing everything on an extreme budget (with safety in mind) and don't want to drop $3500 on a new A/P.

Bmarler · Feb 2, 2022

Leclair92 said:
I have a bluewater 40 (previously 'Salish Moon') with the same morse cable steering system, mine is (reasonably) hard to turn in either direction, but I'm also used to boats with hydraulic steering. what kind of cable did you go with? and did it make an improvement? I'm using an older Raymarine ST6002 Autopilot with the S-1 wheel drive pilot, it basically just attaches to the wheel and steers the boat via a small motor and a ring gear. I am worried that the added friction of the cable and feedback might be too much torque for the A/P motor as it puts out about 22ft/lbs of torque (I think). I'm making a trip from Bellingham to Prince William sound Alaska in May and I really don't want to have a failure and be manually steering the whole trip! on the other hand I'm basically doing everything on an extreme budget (with safety in mind) and don't want to drop $3500 on a new A/P.

i ordered a cable from dometic (through fisheries supply) back in october and it's still backordered. it's been so long now that i think i might cancel the order and put in a hydraulic system. i found some italian made ones that look interesting and the price is not totally out of this world.
i think the old morse cables we have might have been fine when they were new, but they're pretty old now, and without any lubrication they're getting stiff. mine is easy enough to turn when stationary, but trying to push with it under load is awful. i wouldn't be able to use a wheel pilot like yours with the force it takes. you should check the rack to see if it needs grease, and take the tiller end off and check to see that the rudder itself isn't too stiff. it's packing gland might need a little tlc too.

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